Victims of Violence

(477 Posts)
Treats Tue 19-Oct-10 12:57:05

So - this is the first thread I've started within the Feminism section, but I'm a long-time lurker and occasional poster.

I've been motivated to start a thread by this story from last week, and then also by this both in the last few days. (There was another one too but i can't find the link at the moment).

Every few weeks, it seems to me from reading the newspapers, a woman is killed by her husband or lover. Sometimes her children are harmed too.

My DH would like to argue that every single murder is an isolated incident, and caused entirely by factors only relevant to that one man. I argue that these cases are manifestations of misogyny, and that these are not isolated examples, but are all linked. He finds this an uncomfortable point of view, because of what it suggests about him, about us, about our friends.

I think that misogyny is similar to an epidemic - say, swine flu. It's infectious. It affects a significant proportion of the population, but not all. Of those affected, only a minority are severely affected. But it can be fatal - not for the sufferer, but for those close to them.

I don't know how many others here agree with me, but I do see a number of posts from some people who most definitely wouldn't. So the thread I want to start is to collect examples of victims of misogynist violence - women who were killed because they subverted their husbands and boyfriends desire to control them. I want people who visit this board with doubts about why feminism is necessary and justified to read my thread with its examples of victims and to start joining the dots for themselves.

Those posters who think that misandry is equivalent to misogyny are free to post their examples too (of women killing men).

If this thread (or something like it) already exists, then please point me to it and I will post there.

DuelingFanjo Sat 06-Nov-10 18:24:05

"My DH would like to argue that every single murder is an isolated incident, and caused entirely by factors only relevant to that one man"

I tend to agree with your husband in that I don't think that this is a man thing and that all men are capable of this kind of thing. Though maybe I am not understanding you completely?

I too am struck by what seems to be an increase in these kinds of killings/attacks, specifically those where children are harmed or where women are killed/hurt because they have escaped an already abusive situation.

ElephantsAndMiasmas Sun 07-Nov-10 12:32:18

DF - I don't want to speak for the OP, but my interpretation of her post was not that "all men are capable of it". More that there is a pattern of many men who do think it's ok to kill the women with whom they are or have been in a relationship. It needs to stop, and it obviously isn't stopping. There is a pattern and it's dangerous for all of us.

When a lot of teenagers in London started stabbing each other to death, for instance, there were a lot of questions asked about why this was happening, how worrying it was etc. No-one suggested that all teenagers were cold-blooded killers. It's similar here, except the violence is predominantly from one section of the population (men). Cases like the one above show how lightly men who beat up their wives can be treated - a suspended sentence for beating someone until they fall unconscious? It's clear to see how that kind of sentencing gives that particular man, and others reading and hearing about him, a message that your wife is yours and if you want to hurt her or nearly kill her - or perhaps actually kill her because it's all up to chance at that point - you will not be punished.

It is as if the fact that the nearly dead woman was his wife was counted in his favour - well you beat up a woman but she was your wife so that's not as bad. In my view it is worse.

And most incidents of wife-killing are preceded by years of domestic violence and controlling behaviour. Hardly anyone "just snaps" - it is the culmination of years of abuse in most cases.

MrsClown Sun 07-Nov-10 13:29:46

Dont know how to put links in etc but has anyone ever heard of Tracey Thurman in US. All I have to say is OMG.

notjustapotforsoup Mon 08-Nov-10 10:07:27

The parents of Jane Clough are being interviewed on Victoria Derbyshire's programme on 5Live right now. link to listen in top right

ElephantsAndMiasmas Wed 10-Nov-10 23:06:22

Janet Norton was beaten to death by her husband while he was facing charges of sexual assault against a child. "Preston Crown Court was told he killed his wife because he could not bear the shame his offences would cause her, but lacked the courage to kill himself."

Treats Thu 11-Nov-10 12:54:58

I came on to post about Janet Norton but see that Elephants has got there first. Utterly shock and angry that he defended himself on the grounds that he was trying to spare HER the shame that HIS actions caused.......

Also Banaz Mahmood. This story has been in the news for a few years but some family members have finally been jailed.

Just to clarify my OP. I think that many of these cases are linked by the fact that controlling men feel justified in taking revenge on women who evade their control. The Jane Clough case which prompted this thread is absolutely typical. I absolutely don't believe that all men think this way, nor do I think that it's symptomatic of a wider misogynist culture (although some might say it is). But I DO think that some men share a mindset that women should be controlled and that this is what leads to acts of such violence. This is why I think it's possible to liken it to an epidemic of a serious illness. It doesn't affect all men, but amongst those that do hold this view it occasionally gets taken to extremes. In starting this thread, I just wanted to link together the cases I found to show that there was a pattern of this attitude occurring time and again.

Dittany - to answer your point - I think we have included links to all the cases so far, haven't we?

ElephantsAndMiasmas Thu 11-Nov-10 13:05:06

Yeah we are linking as we go, but I will link from the name from now on (as in the last two posts).

notjustapotforsoup Fri 12-Nov-10 01:13:02

Karen Brookes Another man let out on bail for previous violence towards his ex partner and told to stay away from her.

ElephantsAndMiasmas Fri 12-Nov-10 01:51:01

notjust. Another one.

ElephantsAndMiasmas Tue 23-Nov-10 02:27:18

Penny Taylor who was pregnant with her third child when her ex-partner came round and stabbed her to death.

darleneconnor Tue 23-Nov-10 12:38:33

I read that the average sentence a man gets for murdering his ex/partner is 4 years!

ElephantsAndMiasmas Tue 23-Nov-10 12:50:26

Jackie Evans from the news today.

Darlene - that doesn't really surprise me. Although Pennny Taylor's killer was given a life sentence apparently. Presumably because being a poor, black, drug-taking ex-con he doesn't live up to the "but he's such a nice chap, it was just a misunderstanding!" excuses so often made for these bastards.

scallopsrgreat Thu 25-Nov-10 13:39:58

Stephanie Bellinger. He also killed their 10 month old daughter but left their son locked up in the house by himself for 30 hrs until his grandmother rescued him sad

Treats Thu 25-Nov-10 16:09:51

Interesting postscript to the Karen Brookes case on the linked report, and repeats what a judge who phoned into 5Live when Jane Clough's parents were interviewed on there a few weeks ago. He said that you can't hold people in custody just because they've been charged with a crime - there's no evidence that they're guilty yet. Bail will always be granted unless there's a really very good reason not to. On many occasions, the case as it is presented to the judge does not appear serious enough to warrant taking the very serious step of depriving someone of their liberty.

I get the impression that sometimes it's not just the judge making a foolish decision but police/ CPS etc., not making a convincing enough case for the accused to be detained.

Anyway - it was an interesting perspective from the judge's point of view and I was pleased that he called in to the show.

Treats Thu 25-Nov-10 16:11:50

Did anyone see {{http://www.mumsnet.com/Talk/_chat/1091338-Am-in- shock-My-friend-murdered-his-girlfriend this]] thread in Chat? Very very sad. And shows how devastating these crimes can be - not just for the victim and their family, but for everyone who knew the couple.

Treats Thu 25-Nov-10 16:18:25

Bugger - I meant this thread. Sorry!

ElephantsAndMiasmas Fri 26-Nov-10 01:58:21

this man didn't succeed in murdering his ex-girlfriend, but gave it a bloody good go. And then tried to coerce her into sex (rape) afterwards shock

ElephantsAndMiasmas Fri 26-Nov-10 02:01:18

June Jumaily (am presuming surname is same as her daughter) killed by her estranged husband.

scallopsrgreat Tue 30-Nov-10 16:37:59

Ann Geddes killed by her husband who pleaded diminished responsiblity and was found guilty of culpable homicide. Angela Geddes their daughter claimed her father was "a controlling and violent man who was never going to let his wife leave him."

alexpolismum Tue 07-Dec-10 15:30:39

Anni Dewani her husband allegedly arranged to have her killed

Treats Fri 10-Dec-10 09:55:34

Maria Stubbings Another glaring example of police failure.

gorionine Fri 10-Dec-10 10:16:25

Uzma Arshad This happened very close to where I live and really shocked me on many levels.

Another young mum was murdered by her DP in my village a few years back, while their DD was at a sleepover. I have no idea what her name was but I often think about her and her DD.sad

Sakura Fri 10-Dec-10 11:33:09

Kumiko Okumoto, 24, her 5-month-old son, Yuto, and her mother, Takako Ikegami

Down the road from my house, a ten minute walk. I though it happened last month because I remember hearing the police drive past the house, as though it was yesterday

He is sentenced to hanging

My mind can't comprehend this thread. I mean I can't get my head around it.
I keep feeling so very sad for the mother who had her 10 year old daughter taken off her because she supposedly had PND. Since when did we start taking kids away from mothers because they have PND. WHen is society going to start helping women with PND, give them the practical and emotional support they need.

notjustapotforsoup Tue 14-Dec-10 10:26:30
ElephantsAndMiasmas Tue 14-Dec-10 11:06:12

Oh Sakura - what a horrible thing to happen. Or rather, for him to do.

I came on to post that last one, notjust. Sounds like he tried to get the other two children as well. BBC version

I do think it's important to keep up this thread. It always seems like these stories just keep coming. And you write them down, and find they really do

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