Mumsnet has not checked the qualifications of anyone posting here. If you need help urgently, see our mental health web guide which can point you to expert advice.
Help, DH tied a ligature, don't know if I can cope(93 Posts)
we had an argument this morning because he shouts at the DC all the time and I told him DS in particular is scared of him and it's not right. It ended up him throwing a diary at me, here he's been writing about wishing he was dead, drawing gravestones and people hanging, then becoming silent and refusing to talk to me or look at me. After a couple of hours of begging him to speak and to see a gp I told him I couldn't stay, that if he doesn't want help I can't stay with the kids and went downstairs to put DD for a nap in her buggy. I text him saying I love him but i can't stay unless he wants to get better. He text me back saying to tell the kids he loves them. I text him back saying "so you want me to go?" and he didn't answer. I was worried so I went up and he was lay on the bed eyes closed, I spoke to him and he ignored me. I don't know what made me do it but I pulled at the neck of his t shirt and he had tied his phone charger cable around his neck. I don't know how I called 999 whole trying to loosen it but I did, and I got the ligature off while talking to the operator. DH told me to tell them he didnt need an ambulance so I explained it was fine and promised to call back immediately should anything else happen. DH says he didnt want it to actually kill him and he will get a GP appointment. I don't know what to do. I love him. I'm scared. I just want the man I met back. I am afraid I will wake to find him dead. And I'm afraid that if I leave he will kill himself and I will be responsible because I left when I knew he felt like this.
I just want to wake up and this all be a nightmare.
How frightening for you. He needs to see a Dr right away. Ring the GP right now and insist on an emergency appt, preferably a visit. TELL them he has attempted to take his life. Don't take no for an answer.
Is he known to MH services? a crisis team you can call?
On one hand, this is very serious, he has done something that could have killed him. OTOH he did it while you were in the house - he wanted you to know, wanted to be found - it may be a cry for help.
Either way, he needs help ASAP. Know that whatever he does, is down to him, you are not responsible for his actions ever .
Yes, call the gp.
TBH, I'm also worried for you and your DC.
How awful for you! It is never your fault if he does decide to do it, however as someone else has stated, it seems like a cry for help.
He showed you his diary and sent you a very obvious text. I hate to say this, but if he had wanted to do it, he would be dead.
He definitely needs help, do you think he would call the samaritans?
Doctors as soon as possible as well, if that fails, hospital.
My mum killed herself by the way. It was extremely shit. But none of us could have stopped her, only her. It is next to impossible not to blame yourself I know. I know . But he needs urgent help, that bit you can help with.
You are not responsible for someone else's mental health. You are responsible for your own and that of your children.
Get your children and you to a place of safety away from this man and contact his relatives and suggest they take over from this point.
Call your GP and also next time he threatens suicide, call the police.
He must get help. Get RL help. Could his parents join forces with you and ensure he gets to that GP appointment, etc?
It is awful, but you are not responsible for him. Do make yourself and your children safe.
Talk to as many people as possible. GP, Samaritans, his family. Do not try to do it alone. You cannot. You are not a mentor health specialist, and even if you we're, you are too much embroiled in this drama to me of help.
I have limited sympathy for him. It seems he is attempting to use threats of self harm or suicide to control you.
You are not responsible for him. Phone the GP and go yourself if he won't go. If you need to leave him, leave. If he threatens suicide, phone the police.
Agree with badinage. You are not responsible for his mental health and this extreme form of emotional blackmail is completely intolerable and unacceptable. Please get yourself and your DCs safe from this man. If you leave and he actually kills himself it will not be your fault
Can I go to the GP without him? Can I get help for him if he won't go? I don't think he's doing it to control me... But I suppose it's working is he is. It feels so surreal. He is sat cuddling the kids with a cartoon on, its sunny, birds are singing, and I feel like my heart is torn out.
He wouldn't hurt us. But I don't want to stay, and I don't want to leave. Will social services be informed if he tells the GP he tried to kill himself?
Thank you for answering me. I'm so scared and confused. I just need some hands to hold. I keep crying. He seems flat and quiet.
But he has hurt me. This fucking hurts.
Yes you can speak to the GP with your concerns, but you need to make sure the children are safe from someone who's unstable and unpredictable and they are your main concern. Imagine if one of them had found him with a ligature round his neck.
You can ask your GP to pay a house-call and do what they call a mental health assessment. However, don't be surprised if they decide he is perfectly well mentally and is simply being highly and viciously manipulative.
I agree with Chubfuddler.
Do not allow yourself to be manipulated by this man, and make sure you and the children are safe.
Is he manipulative in other ways?
Get him sectioned, the manipulative drama queen.
He needs help Poor guy - he really sounds like he is in serious trouble. I think you need to talk to his GP Urgently, as in today - i wish that you didn't cancel the ambulance as they may well have sectioned him. He needs and URGENT psychiatric assesment.
FWIW i don't think it was a serious suicide attempt, i think it was a cry for help.
Whilst the others have said you are not responsible for him MH, and you need to protect yourself and your DC (i really think you do, they may not be in danger - i couldnt possibly say, but this is really bad for them as it is!) You say you love your DH and if this were my DP i would be seeking for help, for both him and myself.
Yes he is being manipulative and a bit of a drama llama but as someone who suffers with MH this is often simply the only way to express it.
Don't ignore this, this is not going to go away, it might settle - i find that i am very calm after some sort of mental meltdown and things do seem to improve but it will happen again and many people accidentally kill themselves when their cries for help go wrong
It is also important that you get some support for yourself, caring for someone with MH issues is as tough as it gets. My DP is shattered by it all
He is clearly mentally unstable from your post he can't control his behaviour regarding the kids or he wouldn't be shouting at them all the time, can you really trust him alone with the kids?? I would go to your gp asap but also leave him and take the kids with you until he sorts himself out, he will only continue to get worse and you need to prioritise your dc's and yourself. Stay strong this is not your fault!!
I wonder if you should get this moved to "mental health" as you will get a more measured response.
What selfish twat. A 'suicide attempt' while you and your children are in the house with him? I would be packing his cases and telling him to take his hysteria and childishness elsewhere.
Message deleted by Mumsnet for breaking our Talk Guidelines. Replies may also be deleted.
I've never understood the advice to move a post from one section to another to apparently get a better sort of response. With the exception of SN all topics are on active convos and that's where most people navigate the site from. My response would be exactly the same whatever the topic.
I'm seconding LEM here. Ring the GP and ask for him to be assessed, if he won't go himself. Also wishing you hadn't cancelled the ambulance - if he was that bad then you really should not be letting him make those sort of decisions.
chubfudder some of the comments here highlight quite clearly why this would be better in MH - i have posted about being suicidal on MH and about how badly i have behaved towards my partner - thankfully i was never called a selfish twat or told i needed a kick up the cunt!
Some very harsh comments on here. Have some compassion people.
Glad it's not only me that think some people are being very harsh (to sasy the least).
The bloke needs MH help, the OP should be encouraged to help him, without putting herself at risk, and without being made to feel it's not her responsibility. I can just see the reaction if someone had posted "I tried to kill myself and DH took the children and left" the moral indignation such a post would cause is unbelievable.
Do what you can to assist him, he is in a bad place, don't gret dragged into it yourself and insist on MH getting involved. My SiL has tried twice, and because no one has pushed her she has been left with little support. It's not always about control.
If he was serious about it he wouldn't have done it while his wife was in the house to save him would he?
Or sat upstairs texting her.
As he is able to veer from a suicide "attempt" to cuddling up on the sofa with the Dcs as if he hasn't a care in the world I'm doubting how genuine his problems are.
The only way to find out is to involve external agencies. The op can't deal with this alone and shouldn't attempt to.
I have more compassion than you can imagine Moomin,
For the OP who is being manipulated and abused by her twat of a husband.
I've asked for it to moved to MH. I'm not upset at any of the responses, but I think I need to help him.
mess A few years ago my DP lost the plot, attempted suicide, we were not married but I was able to get GP involved as he gave permission and MHT were called in and they were amazing, came here each day for a week or 2 and then referred to clinic. Sounds like your DH is depressed and not in sound mind.,you need to be strong. I called an ambulance when DP took and overdose. intially he was angry with me but would thank me now for taking control. One thing I learnt is that I was not capable of solving his problems, there a professionals out there who know what they are doing. Good luck and keep strong.
Whether he is attention seeking or suicidal, he needs psychiatric help, and OP and her children need support in getting him this help.
Sectioning is a good thing if he is that unstable. And sobering if he is attention seeking.
you need to call GP and tell tehm waht has happened.
my exp cut himself - this was jsut after seeing GP! but persuaded me not to tell GP - this was a stupid mistake on my part. he got wose and worse and in his case became very violent - -in your case he might be more successsful.
he needs help - calll GP and tell them and get them to come and assess him.
if he is doing it for attenion they will suss him
if is genune they can get him help.
why a r e you worried about SS? they can support you . if you are able to look after he dc yourself then you wont need ss involvement while he is in hospital or whatever - but if you do need some support they can help with that.
and copy the diary pages and take them to the GP. now.
throw pofressional help at him.
if he refuses that help he has to go elsewhere - you and dc cannot live with him while he is like this.
I really think some people on this thread need to educate themselves about mental health issues. I am going now as this is all a bit nasty.
And maybe some people need to read some of the relationships threads about manipulative abuse.
As Chub says, the fact he can turn it on and off at will says plenty.
Another thing is keep up your sleeve is that police do have some sway here. If you are genuinely concerned and cant get gp/mh team help, ring for the police. They can come out and make a judgement, and in the main they will take him to a place of safety if needed. Thats not just safety for him, its safety for you and the kids as well. I appreciate that dh may not be happy about it, but ultimately if he wont do anything else, what are you supposed to do? If it comes to the same situation as you have faced with the ligature, don't tell him you are calling anyone at all, just do it.
and call 999 if anything remotely similar happens - and DONT listen to him saying he doesnt need help. he clearly does.
you cannot give him that help - he needs trained profressionals.
yes you CAN leave him like this - so long as you call his GP or 999 and send someone professional to look after him. you focus on your DC and looking after them.
or - you have to find someone to look after your DC while you cart him off to A and E or GP.
please report what he has done now to GP .
NTG it might mean he is manipulative, or it might mean his mood is v labile. Or both. As LEM says, sometimes it's a way to show the mental pain one is in.
I know, and truly, I don't want to belittle anyone with MH issues.
It's just there are so many of these stories, of (usually male) partners threatening the suicide thing as a way of keeping their women servile and quiet.
Can I go to the GP without him?
yes - go to your GP and report everything that is going no - they can take that information and decide how to act on it. then you ahve done your bit .
Can I get help for him if he won't go? I
yes you can call 999 and DONT call back and tell them to leave. better police or paramedics come and assess him .
He wouldn't hurt us.
you dont know that for sure - if he genuinely "ill" who knows what he might do ? my exP got agressive and violent. you just dont know what he capable of.
Will social services be informed if he tells the GP he tried to kill himself?
if there are Dc in the house they will likely call you to see if you ok or offer support. in my case SS were instrumental in helping me and Dc by ensuring exp was kept in hospital and not sent home when he was harming himself and all over the place. do you want your dc to conitnue to be souted at? do you want them to be the ones to find him with something around his neck ? so use SS to help you.
he also was flipping between being "suicidal" and being "i am fine". was some of it manipulative? probably. par t of a bigger picture. but at some level at one point yes he has had dianosed clinical depression adn anxiety. in those episodes the only course of action was to call 999 and have him taken for assessment.
I am sorry Messandmeyhem but I think he is serious.
He wouldnt have written the diary if he wasnt.
If he wont go to the GP himself, you can go to his GP and they can at least advise you.
Go immediately if you can, but someone nees to stay and literally not let your husband out of your sight.
We'll be moving this to Mental Health in a moment at the request of the OP.
Some of you lot upthread most certainly need to educate yourselves. Lives can be lost through what you are saying to people.
You should contact your gp, mental health team ect wether he wants too or not. It seems like everyone in my family has suffered from depression/mental health problems and all of them were initially resistant to getting help mostly because they were scared or didn't think they were worth it. He'll thank you eventually.
If you have any concerns over your children being around him than by all means get them away from him. Perhaps his family can help as well? If he is depressed than he'll need their support - mental illness is as real as any other health issue.
If you're worried he'll try something you can phone the police - we've had them round to section a depressed relative of mine before.
A lot of people on this thread are being very cruel - we only know what the op has told us and yet people calling him an attention seeker and manipulative? What he's doing isn't uncommon for someone with depression but it seems like everything someone comes onto this board posting about a partner with depression their told hes just being manipulative, but if the op herself was unwell everyone would be being supportive.
Best of luck OP
I am glad you have asked, i asked too Mess so hopefully MN will move it. Your absolute number one priority is the safety of your children and yourself. He must not continue to shout at the DCs, its not on. BUT he is unwell - to even feign a suicide attempt suggests an unstable mind.
Is there anything going on that might be causing this? Is this out of character? I mean, my BIL shouts at his kids, he does this because he is an arsehole - I sometimes shout at my DD because i suffer from extreme anxiety and i sometimes just cannot cope - I am however recieving help and im on medication.
You need to persuade your DH that there is NO SHAME in mental health problems and his GP will have dealt over and over again with it. People, especially men, can feel very ashamed of havin MH issues. If you can persuade him to visit the GP of his own accord and that is is truthful about what he is experiencing, that is the best thing but if he wont go, then i would be going to talk to his GP and tell him you think he is at serious risk, he will have to do something!
I am little appalled by some of the comments on here.
So 6 of you know all about Mental Health, and you know that the man is being selfish rather than ill.
Listen to cest she give good advise and sertainly helped me when I was going through problems with my DP. Waves to cest
supposed to read certainly, typing too fast!!!
Glad it has been moved to over here.
Not that we have all the answers.
op, I sincerely hope you have called the GP or 999.
op please also tell a friend or your family what is going on. you need support here - Real life.
is there family or friend who can be with your H / take him off somewhere/get him to a and e or GP?
I hope cestlavielike that she is too busy right now to come back on here.
I feel shocked that some posters on MN put this man's life in danger.
Some of the reactions on here are the reasons why I find it to tell people I'm ill and what their reaction would be. I took an od at the weekend, when you're in that state it can build up until the emotional pain gets too mind, you can't think clearly and can only see one way out. But I called 111, like he texted his partner. It is a cry for help, but he needs to talk to someone about it.
No one knows the whole story, and if the original post has been about a mum, the reaction would have been different.
Some of the posts on here are truly disgusting.
The second thread on here recently that I've seen where a poster's DH has been suicidal and he's been slated and apparently 'needs a slap' or, equally lovely 'a kick up the cock'.
Really, really, shameful.
Hopefully you can ignore the shite, OP, and find the support you need, here and in RL.
Gracie - i hope that you are feeling OK now - please ignore the awful posts at the begining of these threads.
The one that made me laugh was the one that said "oh but he;s sitting with his kids now watching cartoons so he obviously didn't feel that bad" It did make me laugh, but quite sad too. Maybe he loves his children and is gaining some comfort from them.
No one on this thread has suggested that the OP doesn't need help - she does, desperately, i hope she does get it, she needs to address the urgent issues and get ome support for herself and her children.
Many hugs to you.
I am aware that there are some people in rl like the 6 on here.
Normally they are in the minority, though they sadly were not on this thread.
I am not necessarily sure that if the post had been about a mum that the reaction would have been different.
I read a thread, fairly recently I think, where there were a few posters who thought as they did, but the rest of the people on the very long thread were hugely supportive.
[it was 1 about how some travellers on trains get anoyed if there journeys are delayed when there is casualty on the line].
Yes, I sincerely hope that the op is getting professional help for her husband.
Maybe the reaction would have been the same if it had been a mum. That's why I keep my problems to myself. I too have tied something round my neck, do you realise how desperate you have to feel to do that?! And the same day, read my dd a bedtime story. That's why depression is so hard to deal with.
How many people have reacted badly to you about it Gracie, if you dont mind me asking. Please do not answer that if you dont want to.
I can just tell people don't understand why anyone would do that when they've got children and a life ahead of them. Sorry to hijack thread. Hope he gets the help he needs, depression can make you irritable and say things you regret.
I fully expect more people understand than you realise.
Yes, if you do find someone like that, you would be wise to not have too much to do with them for a while, but the rest, I would see what happens and give them the benefit of the doubt.
And yes, I am hoping that the op is getting things sorted.
She is going to need a lot of help and support. Lets hope she gets it from everyone in real life too xx
It's probably all been said, but
1. He needs to get help - he needs to take responsibility for that. You can tell him to do it, but only he can do it.
2. Don't let him emotionally blackmail you, no matter how desperate he seems.
3. Protect the kids from his actions in whatever way you can.
Again, whatever course of action he chooses to take is HIS doing. If you don't want the kids around him while he is such a mess, take them away. Mental illness does not provide an automatic bye for abusive behaviour.
Gracie - I have found people to be generally supportive and my experience of MH issues is that you would be surprised, once you start a conversation how many people are affected by it. I have had experience of other parents being reluctant to allow their children to mine for a play date because i am on ADs. They are the ignorant ones, it is really sad that MH prejudice seems to be so rife.
OP - I really hope you and your DH manage to get things sorted out in terms of support for all of you. You sound like a very loving and caring wife and he is lucky to have you. Please understand that this is not your fault, your DH is ill and needs professional help, whatever happens, sadly, he is the one who is ultimately responsible for himself, so if he ever did the unthinkable, it really isn't your fault, you must know this.
Depression is an illness, it does not make people bad people
ouryve - i have a MH problem, i can be shouty and I have been awful to my partner at times - im not proud of it, i don't use my MH issues as an excuse, far from it - but if someone had taken my children from me, i wouldn't be typing this now, id be in the ground. Only the OP can guage if her children are at risk, we are not there.
Some people are very supportive and some aren't and it is sometimes a real shock who comes to the fore. My leftie Guardian reading touchy feely earth mother type mate dropped me like a hot potato when I had my breakdown.
Anyway he does needs a proper assessment
Contact Mind for advice www.mind.org.uk/contact
When I was very unwell DH just took me straight to the Doctors, who sent me for an urgent assessment. if he will not co operate then he may need sectioning. This is not done lightly if you are his legal next of kin you would need to be involved.
I'm really sorry your family are going through this.
They would try to do the less restrictive option for him, not everyone ends up getting sectioned.
Yes sorry obviously, he may not be that ill.
I wasn't trying to say he's not ill enough, just that an attempted suicide/self harm my not result in sectioning - I'm not sure exactly what criteria do. I've seen people who seem much more ill than me allowed to discharge themselves etc. It's definitely one to explore, god luck to you and DC.
I hope the op still has the diary.
The reason some people have little sympathy for this man is that domestic abuse is as common, if not more common, than mental illness. And he started performing when the OP called him on his bad behaviour and bullying of the DC. He refused to engage with her, refused to seek help, and when she (quite rightly) told him that she was not prepared to have the DC exposed to any more of his unpleasant behaviour, his response was to stage a suicide attempt. That sounds more like abuse than depression. HOwever, if it is a genuine MH issue he needs treatment and probably to move out of the house for the sake of the DC who shouldn't have to be exposed to this sort of thing.
He had been writing a diary.
It was not a sudden thought. He did not suddenly "stage it".
He is a very unhappy man, And none of us on here know why. Probably the op does not know exactly why either.
Please try to understand.
I hope this man is ok physically.
I hope he is safe.
I hope you want him safe too.
How can you or any of the other posters who helped the op delay calling help for 1 hour on this thread ,know what is going on, and to make anywhere near a clinical judgement, let alone any other sort of judgement.
How did people on this thread help the op delay calling for help? What a bizarre accusation.
Ilikethebreeze. First you accuse posters (like me) of putting this man's life in danger, and now you accuse us of delaying her calling for help for him.
Don't you bloody dare. Just don't. The only person "putting his life in danger" (sic) is him.
Because the op got confused by posters saying that he may have been doing it to control her.
If I counted the amount of mental illnesses and medications I'm on, I'd sound like a loony druggie.
I think he's manipulative. I've had a partner just like him... The levels some will go to to maintain control is extremely frightening. That's what I, personally see here.
Every single post in between the ops first two posts told her to phone GP and/or seek help.
Am failing to see how anyone delayed or confused her.
I haven't called anyone. We all went to the park where he played football with the kids. We need to talk tonight. I don't know wether to make him seek help or not. I know my mum has admitted to me to taking loads of pills and hoping not to wake up, she has had no professional help for her mental health and she is ok. I don't know wether to tell him that if he wants to deal withthis without Drs he does so, but if he seems worse / threatens to do it again / I feel the need, I involve the professionals?
He hasn't always been shouty and mean, he has lost his job three times in the last 2 years. We are under a lot of stress and I knew he was depressed. It was obvious to me, I've been depressed (though I never sought help myself) and I've had PND, for which I received minimal help as that's all I wanted. I said and did awful things when I was depressed. I was probably pretty abusive. I'm ashamed, it's not an excuse, I should have tried harder.
I may not post much, I want to be with my DH right now.
Thank you for posting, you have helped so much.
Please don't flame me for not calling the GP, I am doing the best I can right now, we are safe, he is ok, we will be fine.
Neither of you should have to handle this without help in fact I think it would be wrong to try to do so.
Op just because you havent sought help yet you can at any stage it might be an idea just to get thhe numbwr of the local mental health support line for him to keep on his phone. Talk to him about his backup plan who hes will call if he feels suicidal. Onmy phone now will post more later
Please feel that you can come back to this thread OP or open another in MH there will be lots of us with different levels of experience who can help you. I would just like to reassure you that seeking medical help will not suddenly mean intervention by SS or any other agencies, not unless absolutely essential. I have been to my doctor both alone and with DP saying that I have been suicidal. At no stage have there been any suggestion of social services, this is probably because I have a supportive partner.
There are lots of links on the mental health pages here - take a look, or better still, get your DH to have a look.
I am quite concerned about him still, if i am honest, I am sure you are too. I know how stressful life can be when you have financial difficulties, it can weigh heavily. Hopefully this episode between you and your DH will open up the channels of communication between you. Just be prepared to take action on his behalf if he shows further signs.
Solidgoldbrass - are you saying that because I have been suicidal i should leave my family home for the sake of the DC?? Thanks for that
When someone is depressed, people can sometimes take their own lives suddenly. They may not want to do it for 23 hours of the day, but suddenly choose to do it in the other hour.
That is why he does need to be seen by someone medical.
None of us on here know enough about your husband to be able to say that he is safe.
To other people who are reading this who may be getting triggered by this thread.
Please tell someone around you, ring the samaritans,[I think you can even email them] ring a GP, or post on the mental health board on here.
There are also useful links on Mumsnet to the Mental Health web guide on here.
LEM - that's why I said she needed to protect them if she feels they need protecting - given the conversation she had with her DH which lead to this scenario. If someone had issues with physical health which needed dealing with imminently, it wouldn't be unusual for kids to stay with grandparents for a while, until treatment was established or lives were less hectic.
Any one of us can at some point in our lives have a MH issue
I am disappointed but not surprised by some of the comments on this thread.
It saddens me but reminds me why people like me try to hide our MH issues.
I really would advise you to speak to Mind op they are very helpful.
LEM: If your mental health issues meant that you were behaving abusively towards your DC and refusing to seek help (as this man appears to have been doing), then I would say, yes, it might well have been necessary for you to leave the family home unless you agreed to get professional help.
Op when my exp was in "crisis" he veered between "normal" and suicidal/cutting/psychotic whatever you want to call it, periods during day he seemed rational. Wanted to do stuff with kids etc but things would set him off. I wish someone theN had said to me get him seen, get him away from the dc. Issue the ultimatum to get sorted.
Just be prepared to follow thru the next "episode", dial 999, keep a mobile charged up at all times etc.
He can decide to sort it himself so can you but you have small dc to think about. You have a ds who is scared of his shouting. If that is due to depression then there will be a lot more of this if he doesn't actively seek help.
Go talk to your or his gp tomorrow and give e diary and tell them what happened. There will be a record of the 999 call anyway. You might get a courtesy follow up call . Tell the truth and ask for help. Get him help.
(ultimately there were/are aspects of my ex s personality which were abusive and controlling but he also has had severe depression and anxiety episodes including self harm which were also hell to live with, but like you saying in one day you could get from high to low including harming. Just be ready to make that call next time at the first sign and don't then send the paramedics away again. Gp and a and e have standard assessments questionnairs they will go thru with him to suss out if he clinically depressed or not.
If your ds is to grow up in a calm happy non shouty household then you both have to act. The responsible thing is for him to seek help.
Excellent post cestlavielife.
If you do come back on here, I dont think there is a single soul that would flame you.
The thought I keep having, op, is that you are comparing your husband to your mother. But they are not the same person. They are not even blood related, though I dont think even that would make any difference at all in this circumstance.
I do not know about your mother's circumstances, but what your mum does or does not do may not be at all the same to what your husband, in his precarious state of mind,might do.
Thinking of you all.
Join the discussion
Registering is free, easy, and means you can join in the discussion, get discounts, win prizes and lots more.Register now
Already registered with Mumsnet? Log in to leave your comment or alternatively, sign in with Facebook or Google.
Please login first.