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Pros and Cons

(82 Posts)
Ambrosiacreamedrice Fri 18-Jan-13 15:59:18

Does anyone else make pro/con lists with regards to suicide? I have such an urge to end it all but I'm still rational, and I'm constantly making and updating a pro/con list, because I've convinced myself that if I can't get it to balance then I'm justified in dying. I talked about it a bit with my GP and we had an interesting discussion about why suicide was decriminalised, but it felt like I was watching myself chatting to him, rather than actually being engaged with the conversation.

I don't really understand how I can manage to be so detached that I can carry on existing, tidying up loose ends, whilst at the same time planning and planning. The pro side of the list is getting longer everyday and I don't think it will ever balance, so I guess that I have my answer. It's a strangely comforting thought, really.

Ambrosiacreamedrice Fri 18-Jan-13 19:25:07

Sorry, reading this back it is all rambling, just ignore.

amillionyears Fri 18-Jan-13 22:37:02

Not quite sure what to say, so am partly bumping this.
How long have you been making the list for?

Ambrosiacreamedrice Fri 18-Jan-13 22:44:27

Been making the list for the last few months, think it is pretty much done now. Makes me feel content.

amillionyears Fri 18-Jan-13 22:55:33

Are you on ADs?

Ambrosiacreamedrice Fri 18-Jan-13 22:56:46

No, I'm not ill. I'm me.

amillionyears Fri 18-Jan-13 23:01:55

On the other thread you say you have depression and PTSD.

When you went and saw the GP, what did he say, and did he put you on some pills.

Ambrosiacreamedrice Fri 18-Jan-13 23:05:24

Yes I have depression and PTSD, but I'm not ill. I'm perfectly rational, hold down a full time job and have caring responsibilities. I'm just depressed and don't like living. That's my normal state. I'm not ill as such, so medication doesn't change anything as I do not have a brain chemistry problem.

amillionyears Fri 18-Jan-13 23:09:09

I have several more questions.
Is it all right if I ask them?
I am not a professional.

Ambrosiacreamedrice Fri 18-Jan-13 23:10:25

Yes its fine.

amillionyears Fri 18-Jan-13 23:14:48

Can you describe how you feel?
I dont really know much about PTSD. Did you witness something horrid?

Ambrosiacreamedrice Fri 18-Jan-13 23:16:48

I just feel that there is no point to me. I'm unhappy and a drain and would like to go to sleep.

I didn't witness something horrid, no.

amillionyears Fri 18-Jan-13 23:19:02

There most definitely is a point to you.
I think you have children?

Do you have a partner?

Ambrosiacreamedrice Fri 18-Jan-13 23:22:29

I don't have children or a partner. I can't have either. I take up precious air, time, resources that could be used by others to much better effect.

amillionyears Fri 18-Jan-13 23:23:54

Actually, I have had another look at your other thread.
You talked about siblings. I got a bit confused and thought you had children. Perhaps you dont.

Either way, you are definitely important.

amillionyears Fri 18-Jan-13 23:25:51

x post.


Is there anyone with you?
Do you have friends?

amillionyears Fri 18-Jan-13 23:46:10

You strike me as being bright and articulate.

amillionyears Fri 18-Jan-13 23:47:18

Do you feel trapped sometimes, looking after your sisters children?

Ambrosiacreamedrice Sat 19-Jan-13 19:49:13

I don't feel trapped, this is my life. I care for my mother, I look after my nieces and nephew when necessary and I do what people need me to do. I just don't really want to be alive, and my list suggests that there is little reason to be.

amillionyears Sat 19-Jan-13 19:55:42

Do you have time enough to do nice things for yourself?

Very glad you came back, btw.

Ambrosiacreamedrice Sat 19-Jan-13 20:12:39

I work full time and I'm my mother's carer, and I have to work in the evenings, so no, not really. When I'm looking after the children as well I have to stay up until 2ish to get things done for work, so there is little time.

I'm just of the view that if your life isn't worth living, and you can't change it, why would you want to go on living it?

amillionyears Sat 19-Jan-13 20:24:59

That is too much of a workload for most people. Definitely me for one.
I am also wondering when you last got some proper time off to yourself?

Ambrosiacreamedrice Sat 19-Jan-13 20:28:46

I have holiday time, but the caring increases then. It doesn't really matter. If I'm alive I have to do these things. If I'm dead I don't. Seems simple.

amillionyears Sat 19-Jan-13 20:45:28

I think all the working you are doing is bound to have an impact on your life.
Is there any way that someone can help you out with it all at all?

Ambrosiacreamedrice Sat 19-Jan-13 21:03:14

But it is my life, it has always been my life.

amillionyears Sat 19-Jan-13 21:22:54

Are you able to change a little bit of it?

Ambrosiacreamedrice Sat 19-Jan-13 21:25:14

I'm able to change all of it. Dramatic changes to bring greatest reward.

amillionyears Sat 19-Jan-13 21:31:47

No, Little changes
Or even a bit bigger than little changes, but not great big changes.

Little changes can help.

Ambrosiacreamedrice Sat 19-Jan-13 21:33:05

One great big change. It is coming and it is wonderful. I'm content, that's all I've ever wanted and knowing it will all be at an end soon makes me content.

inneedofchocolate Sat 19-Jan-13 21:45:53

I have not read your other thread but what you have said on this one is deeply concerning. I know that you have spoken to your doctor but have you spoken to anyone else about how you are feeling?

You sound lonely and seem to have a lot of responsibility on your shoulders in caring for your Mother.

It really can make all the difference if you speak to qualified professionals or other people in RL who are in a similar position and feel trapped.

Please do not focus on the end or it will consume you. You need to value yourself more and build on your self-worth. Try and make some new beginnings, take little steps to change things but please, please go and speak to someone.

amillionyears Sat 19-Jan-13 21:46:17

Apart from your GP, have you talked to anyone else about what you are feeling?

Hi sorry to gate crash the thread. I just wanted you to know you saying "Im not ill its just me" is exactly what i have said regarding my depressive state. For me its more a part of my personality rather than anything else. Its who i am the way my body works. Not like some people who "get" depressed IYSWIM ?

However that said it does (for me personally i mean) change with drugs but they have to be the right ones. Have you tried any drugs before ? Did they not work for you ?

amillionyears Sat 19-Jan-13 21:47:04

x post with inneedofchocolate.

Ambrosiacreamedrice Sat 19-Jan-13 21:49:25

I've had lots of ADs, but I don't need them. They made no difference anyway. I'm sorted now. Thanks for your concern.

Flojobunny Sat 19-Jan-13 21:52:56

OP I know exactly how you feel and no one gets it. As soon as you say you don't want to live, everyone assumes you are depressed and need help.
It's clear you look at your life in abstract form. You say you have nothing to live for and can't change it. Why can't you change it? You are your mothers carer etc but if you are dead you won't be so why don't you live and not be? Assuming that is what is stopping you going off and grabbing life with both hands.

Flojobunny Sat 19-Jan-13 21:56:14

What helps me is, I think of people in very poor countries, women who are my age who's life has been a struggle, who's children have just starved to death etc and think of their pros and cons list compared to mine.
Sometimes when you are depressed, like I was recently, you lose sight of that and everyone else in the world and become consumed by your own feelings of worth.

inneedofchocolate Sat 19-Jan-13 21:57:29

Talking with someone can really help and it can make a difference.

So many people can feel alone even when they are surrounded with people. Having someone to talk to who really listens to you and who can help you to explore all your feelings and experiences can make a huge impact on your life and how you feel about yourself.

Don't give up on yourself so easily. You matter, you are important and you deserve to be happy.

Ambrosiacreamedrice Sat 19-Jan-13 22:03:17

If I stop doing what I do my life gets even worse. No-one will even talk to me then. If I'm dead I can't be punished for it. I'm 32, I've been here long enough to know that things aren't going to change.

amillionyears Sat 19-Jan-13 22:06:28

Ambrosia, I think you need a break.
People cannot or most certainly should not blame you for that.

What would happen if you went away for a week to say a B&B. Even if you only stayed in your room most of the time, slept, read a book, went for a walk.

Flojobunny Sat 19-Jan-13 22:08:25

I'm 33 and things only change if you are proactive and change them. One thing I have learnt is no one will help you. You have to shout very loud and knock on a lot of door before any one realises you need it.
The trick is, working out what it is that you want/need to change and whether it would actually make you happy.

inneedofchocolate Sat 19-Jan-13 22:08:27

You sound defeated.

What would have to change in your life in order for you to be happy?

Flojobunny Sat 19-Jan-13 22:10:43

You sound stressed more than depressed. You sound like you need some time out to really evaluate your life. I second a holiday. Time to scrap the pros and cons list and write a list of what you need to make your life worthwhile in your eyes.

Ambrosiacreamedrice Sat 19-Jan-13 22:11:56

I can't go away as there is no-one who would look after my mum or my cat who needs injections twice a day. I've never been happy, so I can't see why I ever would be. It is what it is. You can either live with it or you can't. I can't.

inneedofchocolate Sat 19-Jan-13 22:13:20

But you are talking about suicide- surely that is the ultimate going away?

Ambrosiacreamedrice Sat 19-Jan-13 22:14:33

Yes, but I wouldn't be here then. I would be at an end. Other people would then do what they had to. The dead don't feel guilt or anything else for that matter.

inneedofchocolate Sat 19-Jan-13 22:15:58

Tell me about why you have never been happy?

What has led you to reach this point and make this decision?

Flojobunny Sat 19-Jan-13 22:16:17

If you jumped in your car and drove off, other people would also do what they had to.

inneedofchocolate Sat 19-Jan-13 22:18:21

Everything you say screams out 'escape' to me. It feels like that is what you want to do.

Flojobunny Sat 19-Jan-13 22:18:34

I think u feel too pressured with responsibility. I think what you ultimately want is to escape from all those responsibilities without any repercussions.
I think you are worrying to much about what everyone else would think instead of realising you are at breaking point and need to put yourself first before its too late.

Ambrosiacreamedrice Sat 19-Jan-13 22:20:52

But I would then be in trouble. I'm 32. I get up at 5:30 to sort everything out. I get to work at 7:30. I perform like a monkey. I get home about 5:30pm. I sort everything out again. I work at home 8-11pm. I go to bed. Cycle repeats. Why would I be happy? I don't do anything to contribute to the world, I make no positive impact. I'm selfish (hence this decision) and I'm tired. I'm "me, me, me", all the time. I need to shape up or ship out. I'm ultimately selfish so I've decided to ship out.

Flojobunny Sat 19-Jan-13 22:21:23

You don't want to die.
You just don't want to live. There is a difference. That's because you want out of your current life. You aren't happy. You need to go and make yourself happy.

inneedofchocolate Sat 19-Jan-13 22:22:30

That sounds like a heck of a lot to have to do each day.

inneedofchocolate Sat 19-Jan-13 22:23:21

Do you feel stuck?

Flojobunny Sat 19-Jan-13 22:25:11

In trouble? With who? Like you said, you are 32 not 12.
I agree, ship out.
But not out of this world just out of the town or maybe out of the country. Have a holiday, put the cat in the cattery. If your mum is mentally well then tell her and she can make alternative arrangements for her care. Otherwise if she has dementia or something that really (and I mean really) prevents her from picking up the phone and doing this then you will have to.

Ambrosiacreamedrice Sat 19-Jan-13 22:26:00

I'm posting on here at the same time as making a PowerPoint for Monday, so that I can send it in to work then it won't cause problems. There isn't an end to the cycle you see. I have to remove myself because otherwise there isn't a way out.

Flojobunny Sat 19-Jan-13 22:29:30

Of course there's a way out. You ring work and take sick leave.
You say "mum I'm not coping I need a break" and you go, no backward glances. You throw the pros and cons list in the bin. You pack a small case. Include pen and paper and get working on what you (no one but you) needs to be happy.

Ambrosiacreamedrice Sat 19-Jan-13 22:29:43

If I'm not here my mum will either starve or my sister will have to pick up the slack. She has children and a 24 hour commitment to her work. If I die then I won't feel the guilt that she has had to do what I should do. I know she'll take my cats and dogs because she is an animal lover. I suspect she'd put my mum in a home, but my mum has always been adamant that isn't what she wants, so I couldn't do it. I can't live with guilt, but I can die because the dead don't feel anything.

Flojobunny Sat 19-Jan-13 22:30:08

Do you have friends?

Flojobunny Sat 19-Jan-13 22:32:53

You are making a lot of assumptions there. Yes your sister might take up the slack but like you said she couldn't do it in the long term but you think you should? Why?
There are many other options than a home. First things first is home help. Who is there while you work all day?

inneedofchocolate Sat 19-Jan-13 22:34:16

You are too worried about pleasing other people. It is and has taken far too much from you already. Suicide can seem like an attractive alternative to living your life with all the responsibilities that you have. When you are feeling as low as you do it is difficult to see how life can get any better but trust me, it can.

There are loads of support groups out there for carers who can provide counselling, respite care and people to talk to who are in similar positions.

Ambrosiacreamedrice Sat 19-Jan-13 22:39:07

No-one is. I get her up and wash/dress her and then I leave a flask and food next to her chair. I ring her at break/lunch/3:30 to check she is okay. When I get home I cook her tea and bathe her and put her to bed and have a chat about my day. When my other sister is ill I do this in between looking after her kids until her husband can get them.

My mother is my mother. Why wouldn't I care for her? She's my blood. I can't be alive and not do this. It would be utterly wrong to not look after her, just as it would be to not go to work and get my students through their exams. I know it would also be selfish and wrong to die, but selfish me wouldn't then have to live with the consequences.

Corygal Sat 19-Jan-13 22:40:37

You have the most difficult life - full time work, being a carer, not to mention the other stuff - absolutely GRIM.

Selfish you ain't - normal and desperate you are.

"I'm not depressed - it's me." No, You are depressed - it's your life that's doing it. It's fixable, but the trouble is you're working so hard to tread water that you've got no energy to swim. What's wrong with your mother?

Corygal Sat 19-Jan-13 22:47:00

The other thing to remember is that memory is selective - when you're depressed, you can't remember feeling any other way, then you convince yourself you're a hopeless failure incapable of normality or enjoyment.

That's not right - it's just the depression talking - talk to us if you like, at least we're a break from the grinding mental pain you're in.

You don't deserve to be in this pain - I've no doubt you'd disagree, but you don't. Life is terribly hard, terribly hard, sometimes, and you must be very tired.

Flojobunny Sat 19-Jan-13 22:52:14

Everyone is different, and everyone has a different breaking point.
My mum is ill, I don't look after her. Would you tell me I am wrong not to give up my life to look after her because she's blood? Do you think I should give up every spare minute to be with her?
Or do you think I should let other relatives and home help, help out so everyone is happy?

HollaAtMeBaby Sat 19-Jan-13 23:01:21

Ambrosiacreamedrice (great name, I love that stuff), you do have a brain chemistry problem. Your feelings of detachment are one symptom and feeling suicidal/losing the will to live is another - you're clearly intelligent enough to see that there's no evolutionary advantage to wanting to die, so humans with healthy brains are not meant to feel like that. It's an illness. Depression doesn't always mean staying in bed and not showering for weeks.

You don't actually know that the dead don't feel guilt. Nobody knows what's on the other side. Your life does sound very tiring/drudgy and not much fun at the moment, but things will change. Even if all you do is keep on keeping on, your mum and cat will eventually pass away (sorry) and your sister's children will get bigger and not need babysitting. Hang in there.

Ambrosiacreamedrice Sat 19-Jan-13 23:03:07

But other relatives don't help out. They have lives. She, my animals and my nieces and nephews are my life. It will never change. It hasn't in 32 years so I don't see why it ever would. I don't really mind it, I don't feel the need for a rest, and just don't see why I should take oxygen that could be used for somebody productive who wants to live and make a contribution to society.

Ambrosiacreamedrice Sat 19-Jan-13 23:04:47

I'm sorry, but the thought of not having either my mum or my cat is truly terrifying, so another reason to go soon.

HollaAtMeBaby Sat 19-Jan-13 23:11:31

Ah, there's plenty of oxygen for all of us and if you love your mum and cat that much, they definitely need to be on the "reasons to stick around" list.

Is your GP also your mum's GP? Can you ask (again) for some additional home help so you get a break occasionally? What would you do with an hour, a day, a week all to yourself?

Ambrosiacreamedrice Sat 19-Jan-13 23:12:39

But dead is dead. It's an eternity to be alone.

If I had more free time I'd catch up on work.

Flojobunny Sat 19-Jan-13 23:17:31

You sound like an intelligent woman. As far as I am aware there is no shortage of oxygen so your argument is somewhat flawed.
They are your life because you made them your life and the thought of change terrifies you. In which case, take baby steps, think of one small thing that would help.
I am in the same boat, except I have next week off sick to work out what I need to do to help make my life worth living.
I was off last week too and so far this is what I have done.
I have a prescription for ADs, have been to the chemist yet because I am not depressed just fed up of life.
I have a referral to the mental health team, will take about 4 wks to come through.
I have enrolled on a 'self esteem and assertiveness' course, this I think will be very beneficial in helping me see I am important too.
Maybe you are low on self esteem too?

Ambrosiacreamedrice Sat 19-Jan-13 23:24:54

All of this implies that there is something wrong with feeling like this, with knowing that you are a mistake. It isn't illegal to do what I'm planning. If someone has no quality of life it is a humane thing to allow them to die. The thought of living without my animals or my mother is truly appalling, and another con.

I'm not a scientist but I believe that the world is overpopulated so it is unlikely that I'd be a loss.

Flojobunny Sat 19-Jan-13 23:33:21

A loss? One minute you can't leave your mum for a wkend, the next you say you wouldn't be a loss to anyone?
Please realise that what you are saying has no sense to it. The world is not short of oxygen. It might appear over populated in your area, but I'm sure you've never thought about taking pot shots at the neighbours to resolve this so why do you think its rational to kill yourself to resolve this?

Ambrosiacreamedrice Sat 19-Jan-13 23:42:40

It does make sense. I don't deny that it will be difficult for those left behind. My point is that I won't have to face this. I am being selfish by choosing to end an unhappy existence and leave it for others to sort out. I understand this. At this point I do not care. I cannot just walk away and remain alive because:

1) I just couldn't do it. I'm unable to do it.
2) I would feel crippling guilt.
3) It's my house so where would I go?
4) I would be alone.
5) I would then have no purpose at all so be wanting to die anyway.

I don't suppose this has to make sense to anyone else. I know I'm not mad, I know I'm not irrational. I'm the most sensible person I know. My death will not solve these issues for those remaining. I get that. It will solve it for me. It will give me an end. I'm selfish and I'm taking it.

It has been an interesting discussion, and confirms the fact that this is not something to be mentioned in RL except to my GP who shares with me a belief that sometimes these things are just meant to be.

TheSecondComing Sat 19-Jan-13 23:55:08

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

HollaAtMeBaby Sat 19-Jan-13 23:56:54

I think you have badly misunderstood your GP. Even if he agreed with you, he would be breaking all sorts of rules and guidelines by saying so, including the fundamental required commitment to respecting human life.

Please go back to see him, or a different GP, say that you are suicidal, and ask for support with your caring responsibilities, anti-depressants, and a referral to a psychotherapist. You are not well and need help.


Ambrosiacreamedrice Sat 19-Jan-13 23:59:48

I don't have a social worker, I'm a fully functioning member of society with a responsible job. My sister would take my animals and I expect my mum would go into a home. This will not cause me any problems because when you are dead you are dead. I'm not unhappy because I have responsibilities, after all others have far more burdensome responsibilities. I'm just not disposed to happiness. It is okay, I've accepted that. I just wondered if others had too, or if they buy into this myth that everyone who would like to die is somehow ill.

TheSecondComing Sun 20-Jan-13 00:14:14

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

Ambrosiacreamedrice Sun 20-Jan-13 00:19:38

I have seen a psychologist and he agreed there is nothing wrong with me, as have the CPN and graduate mental health worker. The first time you start to feel like this you do wonder where it has come from. Later you realise that actually, you've had a terrific idea and it isn't wrong to think that checking out is best. Your friend has children, it would be a sad thing if she were to die.

I'm okay with what may happen after I die because I won't be here. The dead don't do guilt, the living do in spades.

TheSecondComing Sun 20-Jan-13 00:26:00

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

inneedofchocolate Sun 20-Jan-13 00:36:56

You can talk about this in RL and I think that you need to, desperately.

TheSecondComing Sun 20-Jan-13 00:37:00

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

amillionyears Sun 20-Jan-13 08:53:30

I agree with what others are writing on here.
You need a break. That actually may be all you need.
You can then come back to your mum and cats.

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