Can there be permanent, irreversible MH damage from repeated depressions?

[Somethingtodo]

I am tipping into menopause - have had 5 bouts of depression in last 10 years....not depressed now....but worried that I feel burnt out and exhausted - each day is an effort - is this just a normal age/menopause thing?- is it unrealistic to think that I will ever return to the energy and focus I had 10-20 years ago?....

or can repeated MH issues leave you with a different 2nd gear normal?

[ReallyTired]

I think one severe bout of mental illness can leave lifelong damage. A severe mental breakdown takes years to recover from and gain back confidence.

I am sorry you have been so ill in the last ten years. Have you had any break between your bouts of depression?

[Mitchy1nge]

god

just try not to think of it like that, nobody is the same as they were 10 or 20 years ago anyway whether they have had some kind of mental breakdown or not

I try to think about how much better I am in general than whenever I was at my worst, which would be completely unable to function at all in any sense, can you think of any gains you have made instead (eg in terms of insight, ability to care for yourself, respect for your health?) rather than imagining what might be lost forever. I do know that what is a basic level of functioning for me now is a joke compared to before I was formally 'mentally ill', the whole 'takes a day to do what would have been squished into a short lunch break' type thing, but much much prefer to focus on what I can achieve, there are always new goals to strive for, not better or worse, just different

[Somethingtodo]

Really - yes I have had peaks and troughs - so lots of good times....but this time I am not sure I am "bouncing back".

Mitchy - yes I always take something positive from each one eg changed jobs etc.

I do know that what is a basic level of functioning for me now is a joke compared to before I was formally 'mentally ill', the whole 'takes a day to do what would have been squished into a short lunch break' type thing, but much much prefer to focus on what I can achieve, there are always new goals to strive for, not better or worse, just different

yep this perfectly describes my reality - I was spinning plates until 6 months ago - v sr FT job in large global company, long commute, 3 kids, busy house and social life....now I have left my job and it is an effort to brush my teeth, have a shower....I think that I am in limbo as I cant imagine picking up where I left off, I need a new job/career and I am finding it hard to get motivated.

[ovumahead]

It sounds to be like you may be mildly depressed now, rather that it being some kind of residual leftovers from previous depression. You have just gone through some enormous changes and the pace of your life has changed dramatically. That's enough to restart a depressive phase, I would try to nip it in the bud now before it gets worse. What has helped in the past?

[Somethingtodo]

Good point ovuma - I had assumed that the slow down in my life would have been helpful. My depression pattern is vvv short fuse (not experiencing that tho.....yet) and I have reached for the ADs ....but I will not do that again. I need to go teetotal (not a big drinker - but when down just 2 glasses of wine saps my energy. Will aim to eat better and make sure I have lots of social contact as this revives me.

Thanks for asking this - it has reminded me what I need to do,

[UncrushedParsley]

It's just six months since you were working full time? Maybe you were just burned out... IMHO humans weren't designed to work at those kind of stress levels for extended periods of time. I think maybe the slow-down will help you, once it's had a chance to catch up perhaps.

Having had depression on and off most of my adult life, I know I feel a lot better if I do those boring things like eat well, exercise, take vitamin supplements... Very dull. I also stopped drinking completely a couple of months ago. I wasn't drinking vast amounts, but I was drinking above recommended levels. Since giving up, I have felt much better, and believe that it was contributing to low-level depression that I had at the time.

[Somethingtodo]

Thanks uncrushed - only stopped drinking 3 days ago....have not got into a rhythm of healthy eating....quite the opposite....have sorted the drink - exercise is walking the dog for an hour and a half a day - so OK ish...need to get some healthy food down me. Exhaustion/burnt out sounds about right.

[UncrushedParsley]

Also, I am almost 54. And no, I cannot take the pace like I could in my 30's. Tis natural, innit.

[clarella]

Alternative possibility - maybe double check it's not a symptom of health eg thyroid.

I think the pace of life needs to change as you age, if it doesn't/ can't it's probably very hard to maintain mh.

[doodlemum]

Slightly late to this, but am very interested in this subject as I am in a similar boat, though "only" late 30s and "only" 3 episodes. I do feel like my motivation/energy/capabilities have been much impaired as a result of my MH difficulties.

But also that there are some positives to take away from the whole nasty experience that is depression.

At the moment I have no idea whether I will get close to where I was in terms of that motivation and capability to keep plates spinning etc (like OP I also used to have a high flying job on top of kids and other responsibilities).

Would love to hear further comments.

[Somethingtodo]

There are general things around energy and motivation - then v specific around memory - things like spelling ... where I have zero clue how to spell a word that I use frequently.

[clarella]

I've been going through similar recently due to wider things, but certainly low thyroid hormones cause what you describe, as too ive found does slight anaemia / or non anaemic iron deficiency. I believe low b12 can also do this and low vit D.

I believe the brain can be viewed like a muscle, needing oxygen, blood, nutrients etc etc as well as a mental work out (CBT, thinking training, chess, mindfulness what ever). I believe this as following a thyroid dip which makes my brain very slow (word finding issues, memory, executive function) simply adding the thyroxine isn't enough - I have to "exercise" it. Depression can cause exactly the same.

Mh is awful as it erodes your personality; unlike a broken leg which doesn't govern your sense of humour etc. so it's really tough to heal. Obviously drugs help but I feel they're only half of it. My belief is the brain needs physio as well. I teach children with ASD (now ASC) but I don't feel I teach them as such. It's a lot of therapy both body and mind.

However, what is amazing, is that the brain is plastic. New skills can be learnt (eg taking up a hobby, sport etc) but new thinking skills an be learnt too. I took up martial arts at the age of 28. I think exercise helps due to extra oxygen up there, but breathing can do this too, yoga etc.

I'm not saying I'm great at practising what I preach but repeated recoveries from brain mush and depression and severe anxiety since the age of 20 have given me huge faith in the power of the mind over mind!

A psych did say to me "these things generally get worse each time" when trying to persuade me into sertraline (which did help a lot) but I now don't believe him. Or I don't believe it's an insurmountable thing. I think we maybe get less resilient with each new episode or maybe as we age?

I think I could be different with bipolar, at the same time I know people who are finding they are more in control of their bipolar as they age.

[Somethingtodo]

Clarella - thank you for this inspirational post:

"I'm not saying I'm great at practising what I preach but repeated recoveries from brain mush and depression and severe anxiety since the age of 20 have given me huge faith in the power of the mind over mind!

A psych did say to me "these things generally get worse each time" when trying to persuade me into sertraline (which did help a lot) but I now don't believe him. Or I don't believe it's an insurmountable thing. I think we maybe get less resilient with each new episode or maybe as we age?"

[aeon456]

psychology.wikia.com/wiki/Depression_-_Kindling_theory

"Clinical depression is one of the disorders that the notion of kindling has been applied. For as Kendler et al (2005) have shown, that while a first episode may be caused by severe adversity, the experience of one episode makes a second more likely, the second makes a third more likely and so on, sometimes in the absence of stressors."

www.queensu.ca/psychology/moodlab/publications/PR_Kindling_Paper.pdf

I definitely relate to the Kindling theory as each successive bout of depression I've had has started more quickly than the last ie it takes less to happen each time to start it.

I think the brain is weakened by each successive bout but not necessarily damaged. Anti-depressants long-term are the best protection against this type of depression in my opinion.

[doodlemum]

Thank you for posting this aeon, I hadn't heard of this before but it's fascinating. And I think probably quite accurate for me.

It also fits with the general idea of how the brain learns and gets into habits - the more times you do something the more easily you can do it again.

BUT the important thing to remember is that habits can be broken and thought processes can be re-learnt. Google neuroplasticity and depression.

I also agree that long term AD use can be helpful for some people.

[ColouringInQueen]

The "Kindling" theory fits with my DHs experience, where episodes have become more frequent and more severe.

But I'm also really encouraged by Clarellas post.

Very interesting thread OP.

[clarella]

I've been reading something's reply to me repeatedly. I can see the phrases you've copied do read that actually, I keep getting depressed.

Nothing is ever this simple. Actually, when I have, recovery has been much quicker.

I'm going to try and explain more toddler free and more with it.

It does I suppose depend on the triggers.

In my case, my anxiety and depression (I now know) has been repeatedly triggered by 'invisible' illnesses. I've been physically unable to keep up with what's expected of me. I'm very socially aware and so (not knowing I'm actually ill) I've assumed, as others have, I'm just not as good as them.

When I fell I did fall more quickly each time so I agree with a kindling theory. But I've got better at recovering. And spotting symptoms within my self, actions, reactions etc. And knowing what needs to be done to recover, and then maintain a healthy mind. So as I say, it's not that simple.

Also, I think I'm getting more chilled and relaxed as I age. What used to trigger things doesn't bother me now.

So, the recovery is as important as the fall in order to be more immune next time.

However, I'm not suffering from bipolar or a more complicated and difficult mh condition.

I will read the links though and reply again.

[clarella]

Learning about assertiveness has been helpful.