Mumsnet Talk

Dd is seven and in her first term of piano lessons. She loves being able to play but the delayed gratification bit is hard and I really don't want practice to become a battle ground. At the same time, I wish my parents had been a bit more pro active in encouraging me to practise when I was younger. Where's the balance? Dd procrastinates but once you get her going she practises well and makes progress.

Chart and rewards? I know a piano teacher who bribes her children with Celebrations! They all do it and are making excellent progress.

What time of day do you currently encourage her to practise OP? We gave up on after school and now get ds to do 10 mins before school each morning. It's become part of the routine - breakfast, brush teeth, shoes on, piano.

With a slightly longer practise session at the weekend this is really paying dividends.

That makes me feel a bit better! In my heart of hearts I know she's rewards motivated but I sort of feel she should do it for the love of it. I am similar to her though. This morning I "encouraged " her to practise using chocolate pudding as an incentive (not for breakfast!). Think we'll set up a chart. I think practice is quite far removed from the ultimate reward of getting good at playing and the good feeling that comes from that.

It works better in the morning-I just need to get to the point where it can be done without moans. Ten mins might be more realistic-her teacher wants fifteen but I think ten a day of actual practice would do more for her playing and levels of enjoyment.

Mine do like to practise - but only because it is also full on mum time.

When they are young they need to be watched when they practise anyhow and if they are being stretched by their pieces they need advice and it helps if I am there - our piano teacher likes parents to sit in on the lesson till the kids are 10 anyhow so they can help out in between lessons...

At that age you need to do it with them, ie sitting right next to them and encouraging/helping/pointing out mistakes. It takes practice to learn how to practise, if that makes sense.

Do it at the same time every day, in the mornings often works better than after school, if you can manage that. And bribery, bribery. You can tie it into pocket money, for eg. 10p a practice, plus a bonus if they do a whole week without missing any days. Or star chart, or whatever works for you.

Full on mum time here too-although I'm am that the reason I'm asking advice is that I have been cross the last couple of mornings which makes the mum time less of an incentive. A friend said that we should just stop lessons but I think that this isn't the answer - getting a good routine and good feeling about practice might be.

Rewards! Thanks for the permission

Yup, bribery. 10p per practice here in the early years. They forget about the money after a bit (or I do) and start getting embarrassed that the teacher can spot when they haven't practised.

I let DS2 drop piano after a year because he just wasn't motivated enough. However, just this year though he came home and said he wanted to audition for the Cathedral choir on his own initiative and he did and got in. He loves it now and is highly motivated. I do think that driving a child through piano practice really is a thankless task and not worth it in the end.

DS1 still does piano but he let his practice slide badly over summer and in the end I told him if he practiced hard and did his Grade 3 exam in December (2 weeks from now) he could drop it and never go back. We sat down and worked out a realistic timetable to get through all the material by the exam date. He just had no idea how much he had to do. We agreed 20 minutes practice morning and night for 3 months as he was so far behind - he is age 12.

It needs to become part of their routine, something they just do, like homework, or reading aloud or toothbrushing or bedroom tidying. Once you've established that eg. 8am is practice time it's much easier to put into practice because they don't really argue as they don't know any different iyswim.

But yes, incentivisation is good, as the first year of learning any instrument (violin eg MUCH worse for this) is a bit of a slog. Think of it as the musical equivalent of, "Oh no, said Biff. Oh no, said Chip. Oh no, said everyone. The magic key began to glow..."

Once they get past that stage and realise that they can take those raw materials and use them for new and fun things, then it takes on a whole different dimension. But you do need to get through that first year or so. Conversely, there is no point at all in paying for lessons if they don't practise, you might as well just set fire to a bunch of £20 notes. They won't make progress, they won't enjoy lessons, and the whole thing is a waste of everyone's time and money.

I'd involve technology in this.
Tell her you can hear a vast difference in her playing already in just one term and you are very proud.
Tell her you want to share all her success with a faraway grandparent or relative. You have an idea. You are going to record her on your phone/ iPad once a month and send it to Granny/faraway relative. Then if you can stick with it for three months or so let her hear the difference in her playing ability.
At her stage there will be significant progress.

Nothing, that is a really good idea. We accidentally did this by videoing DS2 and his wretched euphonium when he was seven, and it's lovely to look back on*. He's so small relative to the instrument, and trying so hard.

*Note that I don't say it's lovely to listen to!

Lancelottie agreed early days can be very trying...

Bribery , exactly. I honestly don't know any child that age who would be practicing withot encouragement.They all love fiddling on the piano but dont want to practice. Before school routine worked wery well for DS at that age.

I think they go in fits and starts with it. DD1 is 9 and is really into piano at the moment, but has to be nagged to practise the clarinet (previously it was the other way round). It helps that her teacher has told her specifically how much practise is the minimum she wants (4 x 15 mins a week) so we plan for that.

I agree with the fiddling! Any incentive scheme here will involve deductions every time I hear "Mary had a little lamb" or frere jaques

Earn computer time - 1 minute for every minute of practice. Works for us. A bit of moaning in the beginning but after a while it was obvious that progress was made and now practice is not too traumatic. We also do the Super Mario Bros analogy - if you don't practise to the point of the half-way mark then next time it will be like starting from scratch. DC seems to click with that one.

To start with, ours earned computer time too. 10 minutes of practice = ten minutes on Moshi Monsters or whatever the current favourite is. Now they have got into a routine, I no longer need to bribe any of them directly, but I do expect them to do music practice before watching TV or using computer for non-homework stuff.

3b1g - that's reassuring. I told DC that the minute they can self-regulate we will stop all this restrictions. I do hope the day will come.

Ah-even more relieved. Dh lets her have the same number of mins on his iPad as practice done when she does it with him. So I will continue to support him (and not disagree as I was inclined to before this thread )

I'm all for morning sessions too. If it becomes part of the routine they'll just do it without much thought and it frees up time for relaxing/playing/homework later on when they are tired. I did 20 mins every morning from age 7 and quite often played piano for fun in the evenings because the "work" had already been done that day.

Routine, 10 mins a day should be fine. I always told my DS and DD I was happy to pay for music lessons as long as they practiced but if they didn't, or if I had to nag them, then lessons would be over at the end of term. Has worked fine. (I am a piano teacher btw.) The practice really is crucial or she won't make any progress.

If she is really reluctant to practice it could be that she likes music but is on the wrong instrument? DD went through violin and cello before she discovered the flute, and DS went through piano and pipe organ (I know!) before finding the sax.

Bless the music co ordinator at dd's school. Dropped dd for her piano lesson this morning and just caught her and asked if she felt it was normal to find practising a bit tough to start with (of course I knew it really, thank you mumsnet ). She smiled, rolled her eyes and said "to begin with? I find it tough with my sixteen year old! You're doing so well if you're getting dd to practise at all!" I walked out an inch taller. What with that and all your help yesterday I feel it's doable. And I'm going to buy a moshi for dd today.

lol- we have found the transition up to secondary school has REALLY helped with practise - eldest DD (Y7) is the only one who has done any instrument training at all in her tutor group - so she gets 2 hours a week practise on her grade 3 stuff in lesson, whilst the class learns to read music or play easy piano carols on the keyboard...

she helps the teacher with the others, she does sight reading tests the teacher will be giving the Y10 pupils and she only needs to stop when they are doing the composition element of the classes.

She is now loving it and practises MORE at home so she can show progress at school too..

Her piano teacher is LOVING it....

Following my earler post. DS1 told me this morning that his piano teacher had told him 'you have been the hardest working of my pupils this term and made the most progress'.

I quietly smiled a little inside and wondered if DS1 had mentioned my role in creating his practice schedule.

ROUTINE is the only word that comes to mind.

Sorry but I have to disagree with the bribery thing. Where does it stop? Do you offer bribery to do homework too? Or to do their daily reading? Or to brush their teeth? If they - or you - want them to learn music, it should be part of their overall education, just as reading or doing sport. It is not something they do FOR YOU and should be rewarded. Either there has been a decision to include music in their education or not, and once that decision is made, then practice becomes something they have to do to become a better educated, more rounded person in the future. Like school work.

We never used it and would never do. We just reminded DS he had to do music practice and he went and did it, sometimes happy, sometimes with a long face. But he knew it was part of his day's very few "must-do". Now he is Grade 5 and insists on spending an hour at the piano everyday and I can't make him to stop. He learnt there is a pleasure in making himself work hard at something, a pride sweeter than any material rewards.

I tend to initiate the practice - but have to say I am quite lucky with dd as she seems to enjoy it. I sit with her and go over everything (it is cello by the way). She now practices between 20 and 40 mins per day depending on how many pieces the teacher has given her. She sees the progress herself and for her (severely dyslexic / dyscalculic and a bit dyspraxic) cello is the first thing she has ever done where when she puts in the effort she achieves at least as much as everyone else. (she's 10)

We don't bribe for anything else - the bribery will stop when either the child decides to drop the instrument, or when the child decides to practise without "bribery". The bribery is to get over the initial period of a difficult instrument and to progress quickly enough that they can get some pleasure out of it. And for us earning computer time is an incentive that works. And I don't bribe for piano, for some reason, only for cello for DS1 (and maybe violin later for DS2). Though I do put a sticker on pieces they play nicely - does that count as bribery?

Not that I am justifying myself. We do what works, and different things work for different people.

hardboiled - you are right in theory but children are children.We refer to bribery light-heartedly. learning how to practice efficiently is the most difficult skill . Its not just the time spent at/with the instrument. I don't think you can make an unwilling child practice properly unless you tie them to the chair,starve them and even then it won't do any good. At 7 DC children like thinking - "i've done a good job and got sweetie for it". At 11 my DS worked hard (he's been doing practice at school now, unsupervised for the past 2 years) and won an amazing award - this is his "sweetie" now. It always helps to know that hard work pays.

Yes pianomama, I understand your reasoning, maybe I just got lucky as I never had to nag DS...I am just in shock really, when I think of all the musical children out there who will never be given the opportunity to learn an instrument or will be able to afford music lessons, to hear that some children lucky enough to have private lessons are on top of that getting PAID cash for doing their practise...
It just ain't right.

Agree - to become a good musician you need talent and lots of support.
Would it not be great if every school gve DC opportunities to discover and develop their musical ability.. and supported talented kids...

Hardly 'shocking' in my book.

Personally, what's the harm in incentivising your children a little? An odd 50p here and there is not exactly the minimum wage. Nor is an extra half hour on the computer.

My child practises instrument happily without any prompting.

However when it comes to reading a book or doing French I dangle everything I can think of to encourage said child...

Hard boiled-dh and I were discussing the fact that one of the luxuries of relative "wealth" (in our case, even though there are things we don't have, we can afford essentials plus children's activities without really tough choices) is to allow children the chance to do lots of things and find whatever their passion is. And also to have periods where they aren't deeply passionate about it. If, like a good friend of mine, my parents had had to make really tough choices about my activities, I'd never have pursued music. I have never been amazing, talented or anything, but reasonable and reached grade eight and had loads of orchestral experience. I also had a social life through music. It's the ones on the edges that really miss out. And actually, I wish my parents had bribed me to practise, or at least nagged because then I might have missed out more of the "god I haven't practised and it's the lesson tomorrow" feeling. But in principle, I agree that it's better if playing is its own reward. Given that we've committed to it and dd is finding practice hard to get used to, I'd rather reward than nag.

Oh, and I don't just believe the super talented should be supported, which is why I'm glad there are these whole class instrument lesson initiatives. In an ideal world I think instrument lessons should be seen as as essential as reading lessons, just something children do.

If you have the energy, you can try little tricks such as writing each thing she has to do on a card (scale, each piece separately, arpeggio, sight reading, etc), then add in one wild card (eat a smartie, jump up and down 5 times, etc).
Let her pick a card out of the pile and do whatever it says.
This kind of thing breaks up the routine in a good way. You have to keep having new ideas, so it only works if you are feeling fun.

I think using bribes can make a good point if you do it very occasionally. Try telling her: "If you have a focused, good-humoured practice session, you can have x, y, or z." She will practise really well, and then you have a chance to chat to her about how the real reward is that she learned a lot and had fun because she had a positive attitude. With a bit of luck, she will be amused that you "tricked" her into winning this real reward and start to try for it more often.

I find the best incentive is having little siblings wanting to get on the piano to play too. Dd1 enjoys doing her practise, and generally does it every day without prompting, now dd2 has decided to teach herself, and ds enjoys making a noise on it. Dd1 knows that if the practising stops so do the lessons.

Having had 5 children who all learned or learned usually 2 instruments (that is a lot of practising).... and three won music scholarships... I think the answers are all above. Do a bit of practice every day ideally at the same time so they know when it is. I like to accompany them on the piano at the same time when they practise instruments (obviously that won't work with the piano).

Try to do a bit every day or most days rather than a longer session only once a week. Try to be nice about it all. Don't worry about it all. It should be fun and it's not very important. In fact if they wanted to make a career of it given how badly paid it all is it would be disastrous unless that were their sole passion.

Oh and I know a lot of people disagree with this but I always found doing an exam got them going and doing more practice so get her in for the preparatory associated board piano test (and then grade 1 when she is up to it) and think about grade 1 music theory too as if she wants to get beyond grade 5 piano she will need to have passed grade 5 theory. Some children do like collecting certificates, passing exams etc like Brownie badges. Others don't of course.

(Grades 6 - 8 get you university entrance points too - UCAS points).

Xenia - it does matter and it is very important!!! And thinking about child's carreer when they are 7 is a bit much - isn't it? Music practice is extremely good for young children ,realy good for their mental and emotional development. Only a handful will become professional but it is not about getting a well paid job. I am amased at the standards some DC play at in the JD and yet lots of them chose other carreers.Music teaches them skills to be very good at lots of other things. Doctors,scientists, lawers...

You know, telling your children how lucky they are to have music lesson is just not going to make some of them love practising, just like telling them how lucky they are to have food is not going to make them eat their brussels sprouts/cabbage or whatever "very-good-for-you" and "how-lucky-you-are-to-have-these" type food. I don't know why, but it just doesn't work. (Actually I've never told them they are lucky to have music lesson. Does anyone?)

Interesting threa, thank you all.
Our problem is fitting in practise time, as their day is so long already, and we both work... DD would practise every day, if time permitted, and I feel bad about that.
I am surprised at practise in the morning though- don't any of you have neighbours? I don't think mine would be impressed if DD started at 7:30am each day!

We have an electric piano - Yamaha Clavonia type - you can put headphones in and have no volume... or have it play out loud but quietly...

pm, actually you're right. Also children who learn instruments apparently do better in school work. It's also huge fun. I sing every day. I sing in choirs. It's a massive pleasure in my life even at my age. It can be a bonding thing with other people too like sport as it's something you have in common with them

HanS - we practised as children before school (but detached house). My children never have - just after school and not every day and they still got music scholarships (some of them) although they would be much much better if they practised more. Each parents has to pick their own standards with these things and views. I would have thought for most children 10 minutes a day or every other day is not that hard.

I find it is more a questino of my own energy. If I cannot be bothered and am reading the paper they are less likely to do it of their own volition. If I am bouncily suggesting they practise they will. If they have something coming up - they are both doing a solo next week (or when a music exam is in the offing) then they practise more too.

Uptoapoint, yes I did. I told DS how lucky he is. I was never given lessons even though every time I visited my best friend - a girl wealthier than I was - I sat at her piano and tried to teach myself. Such was my desperation. But nobody noticed/cared and I assumed only the rich had music lessons.

So I have told DS he is lucky. We pay for his music lessons and all his activities by never eating out in restaurants, living without gadgets, ipads, smart phones...the list is very long. He said he felt lucky and would never waste it away. And indeed he is not.

We only had to use the computer time bribe with DS2's piano practice and DS1's piano practice for the first year. DS1 now practises voluntarily and willingly, partly because he is now reaping the benefits in secondary school music lessons and partly because he can now play well enough to enjoy it. By the time DS3 started the drums and DD stared the flute, daily music practice was accepted as part of our family life, so I haven't had to bribe either of them.

I thought I was the! only one who recorded DS1 on my phone to let him hear back how hes doing.
He is 8 and does baritone horn and he does at least 10 mins usually after school every day. The instrument is hired from school so the deal is that he has to practice every dya or it goes back. So far I need to prompt him but no problems... sometimes he is a bit half arsed and stroppy about it but other days he spends longer on it.
We started on the piano about 12 months ago and he wasnt so keen however he likes the brass noise and so seems more motivated now!

I leave the house and leave 'guitar & piano practice' on the babysitter's list!
Seems to work every time

Seriously though, my DD has got into the routine of one instrument in the morning and one in the evening. We'll build practice up towards exams (thankfully a term apart), then have a lull afterwards.

These are instruments she chose to play so she's happy to practice. Did your DD ask for piano lessons? Is it just that she wants to be able to play well straight away?

Yes-dd asked and is proud of herself when she plays well. She is a bit like rolling a boulder up a hill when starting new stuff (like her mother ) and needs encouraging a lot in the early stages. She also will give up quickly if something's tricky but be fed up that she's given up. It makes it a tricky balance to judge between not pushing too hard but helping her to overcome the initial hard bit.

Xenia lesson of the day....

Verb - doing word - practise (note the s)
Noun - a thing - practice ( c) .

I do the practice. I practise the piano.

Xenia-you're probably right to say but I think the tone was unhelpful.

Dear OP, could you consider another instrument? Piano's so solitary. With most other instruments she could join an orchestra/band and if she's a sociable little girl (or competitive...) that might encourage practice. I am still a rubbish pianist, due to lack of practice for exactly that reason, but my viola and saxophone playing are really quite good and I have been round the world & made loads of friends through music.

Failing that, how about piano duets with friends/you or your DP learn to play too/group piano classes (it is possible -- places like Benslow do courses for children & adults)/introduce a bit of improvisation or composition/take her to see one of the charismatic pianists like Lang Lang (or DVD) to inspire 'I want to be like that'.

Or for Xmas, copies of Sparky's Magic Piano and /or Oscar's Orchestra? (flying grand piano) - not that either of those made me practise either but I still loved them. Basically I am entirely supportive of regular practice to improve at music (it's supposed to take 10,000 hours isn't it, for true competence?) but first you need the motivation!

Phiney j definitely get the argument for another instrument-I played French horn and it opened up a world of bands and instruments. I can see another instrument in the future-in fact she's learning recorder although less formally-but I do think piano gives a good grounding and teaches them to read both treble and bass clef from the off. Although this is not why dd is learning the piano, I wish that I had had at least a year or two of piano when I was quite young because later on with the horn, I was a low player who had to work out all bass clef notes-I was never a fluent bass clef reader. I'd love dd to join a band or orchestra, or take up goat herding if that's what takes her fancy later. I hadn't thought of it this way until a previous poster said it but I guess deep down I see reading music and playing as a skill to be taught young so they can decide later if they love it passionately and want it to be a long term hobby. Like reading words. I'm not a big reader now but I had the tools to give me the choice to be.

And yes to both competitive and sociable. Both helpful in their way - although the competitive bit still needs taming

LOL Molehillmountain, competitive, sociable and needs taming - surely the trumpet beckons later on?! I agree about the skills part and starting young. I just personally never got on with the piano. I don't remember learning to read music but I understand it is a real pain to have to do so as an adult when you just want to play - that's definitely a good point.

Oops apparently that's the shortcut for italics not bold. Oh well...

She is destined to play brass - just delaying the inevitable .

Btw, I talked to dd about it at bedtime, how I was proud of what she was doing but that I wasn't enjoying her being grumpy about starting practice. Also about how she felt when a piece came under her fingers as the one for this week had. She likes the idea of a sticker chart with a reward for a sticker each day and I think dh can just carry on with the iPad thing too. We're going to get stickers tomorrow.

An alternative I read about somewhere was using a chocolate advent callendar - 44p in Lidl, one a day, instant reward!

If she def wants to play different instrument, why not let her, keep the piano for fun at the moment. Dh had to learn violin, but wanted to learn piano, he sabotaged the concert he did at school by playing in the worst possible way, parents finally agreed to let him stop, but refused to let him learn piano (although they did have one). Dd1 loves piano, she's also 7 and loves to practise. Dd2 has decided that bass is her instrument (like dh), though she does like to try piano and we will offer her lessons when she is older.

If you make it too hard for her now she might not want to play any instrument. Our rule is if we're paying for lessons, you need to practise, but if you want to stop lessons, then that's fine and cheaper !

I don't do rewards and rewarding with chocolate is like peddling cocaine in my book but I accept most British parents love to use sugar and foods which damage children as rewards.

Yes you do Xenia. You lead your children to believe that if they follow your programme they will earn stacks of money in the future.

I don't think you need money for happiness. I have never suggested you do to the children at all. I have no problems if they want to be contemplative nuns or run a bar in Thailand or whatever. However I do think people are happier when they work for themselves so if they can pick careers which might make that possibly at some point then I would certainly encourage that. One of mine called today who had worked 41 hours without a break or sleep last week. I always say people need a lot of sleep and no one works well if they don't sleep. I encourage people to have balanced lives just as I have done. Music is part of that - it is a huge pleasure. I will often leave my office if the afternoon is fairly quiet like yesterday and go and play the piano and sing for 10 minutes in the room next door.

How nice that we're singing in harmony on this thread! MHM's comment in the OP "I wish my parents had been a bit more pro active in encouraging me to practise" is a good reminder why we are right to insist on some things. Absolutely agree that a routine helps. And also parental certainty that practise will be done; I used to do a good act of utter disbelief when it wasn't. Mind you by the time one DD was 18 it was getting her to stop that was the problem so I might have overdone it.

And HURRAH for brass. Trombone by any chance?

Hopefully horn-but only because there's a rather nice one in the loft. Practice done before breakfast this morning with minimal moaning-yay!

Fantastic!

Before breakfast! I salute you Molehill! At that time in our house we are but a bunch of half-asleep semi-humans trying to find our shoes, bags and toothbrushes while swearing vengeance against our alarm clocks which we are convinced are a conspiratory group of lethal androids...

hard boiled. Similar here actually-I think it improves technique!

Thank you do, so much for all the advice and encouragement. Dd had fab feedback in her lesson this week and has practised every day before school. She did it this morning with just a cursory "but weekends are rest days" but I said that she would be having a treat for doing all seven days. She's also wanting me to stop interfering so much, telling me which the tricky bits are to practise again and starting to listen when I say to put her energy into playing the tricky bits again rather than waving her arms and wailing! I've talked to her about how I used to feel about tricky bits in my pieces and how I still feel about big jobs. And because she's done proper practice in the morning I don't mind how many times she plays blooming "Frere Jacques" and Mary had a blooming lamb in the evening. Sorry to go on but it's been a really good week.

Umm good luck!

I'm definitely of the you need to do to with them camp at this age. They need to learn to be strict with themselves - not letting mistakes pass be it note, timing or fingering "learning the mistakes" happens so easily and it hard to correct.

I live the minutes on iPad for practice done exchange!

It was several years before we started to get individual practice that was quality time rather than just playing things through.

It's funny how they just assume its normal for a parent to shout " it's an f sharp" or "sharpen the 7th if that's supposed to be a minor scale" from the kitchen though! I'm sure kids that start instrument at 7yrs who don't ave parents with a musical background bpmust find it hard

Molehill - sounds like you are on the right track! Realy useful thing is to encourage DC to note their particular difficulties and then bring it up with the teacher at the lessons. I think teachers really appreciate that,I.e. -" this week I couldn't figure out this bit - I tried it like so and like so but still struggling and not sure I'm doing it right" . And really discourge comments like "but my dad/mum told me to do it like that!" - doesn't go well with teachers

Theas18 mine just had to get on with it, they didn't know any different anyway. They have done OK but they may well have done much better if DH or I had that sort of background.

DS started brass at school at 8, which was our first introduction, and asked to start piano at 10. In the meantime DD started violin at school. However with the piano, the teacher came to our house, DS2, aged 6, heard the lessons and begged and pleaded for them, so he started too. But I sat in on the lessons with him, which has made a huge difference I think, as the teacher explained what was wanted.

The three of them shout at each other now! (In a helpful way), and I even go in and help with a music group in school.

I would find it so helpful to be in the lessons-or even overhear them. But not quite as helpful as the lessons happening during school time

I know what you mean! All the other lessons are school based, but we are also very lucky with the teachers - I know school lessons don't suit everone. And I can contact all their teachers directly which is great. DS2s brass teacher also conducts DDs Youth Orchestra so I see her every week anyway.

had dd's report for piano this term from her teacher. Excellent for all - including practice. I don't normally broadcast this kind of thing but it's been a challenge to help dd learn to practise this term and with your help and dd learning to put her energy into practice rather than screeching when it's hard, it's all come right. Onwards and upwards-an eisteddfod next term so no doubt we'll be begging for a bit of hand holding as we tackle public performance!