Cubs/Scouts - Any leaders or parents who can advise?

[clottedcreamteawithscone]

DS has gone through beavers, cubs and is now ready to move onto Scouts there are 2 groups but the only one has places but this clashes with his only other activity he does.

We have been told there is no alternative he has to move on as he's 10.5 years and if he cant take this group then tough basically!

He wants to go all the way with his scouting and finds it very fulfilling, however his other activity is also very passionate about.

It is really upsetting him as Ive told him he has to make a decision which one he wants to do.

Can anyone suggest anything as it would be such a shame for him to drop one of the activities

[ragged]

Wait list for the other group? Spaces have to come up sometime.

[clottedcreamteawithscone]

they wont let him they say he has to move up!

[Unreasonableandpetty]

Depends. I am a cub leader and we have occasionally had permission to keep them until 11 but purely because we are remote and there is only 1 scout troop close by and that is several miles away so we often keep them a little longer to follow the natural progression of school holidays when there tends to be enough movement to free up spaces. I doubt that would happen here because you do have one with spaces. You options are he gives it up until a space becomes available on a more convenient night, you look a little further afield for one with spaces on a different night or he gives something up completely. Depending on what the other activity is depends on which may be better long term to give up.

[WhoKnowsWhereTheTimeGoes]

My DS moved from Cubs to Scouts last year, a lot of children join the movement at that point, so it should be possible to go in a waiting list. Are both groups at the same Scout hut, i.e, under the same group leadership, or are they separate. Are there any other groups nearby in your district?

[ragged]

So he can't just leave cubs & not go to Scouts until space is available in the group you want?

The only way he can go into any Scout group is if he goes immediately from Cubs to Scouts? Otherwise he's never allowed back to Scouts? That is weird.

[clottedcreamteawithscone]

all Im being told is that he's 10.5 and has to move only spaces are in the Wedn group no spaces whatsoever in the Friday group...just seems so unfair.

He has written a letter to the Scout leader which Im going to email over today to see if there is anything that can be done ie. can he leave then re-join once a space becomes available in the Fri group :( He's soooo upset

[Waltons]

He does not, not, not have to move up at 10.5 years old. The leader needs to read our Scouting rule book, "Policy Organisation & Rules". (It is very much a rule book as well, and we are all expected to follow it to the letter, even to the point of madness on occasions!)
members.scouts.org.uk/documents/DocumentUpload/May2015/POR_May%202015_chapter3.pdf

Rule 3.8 The Cub Scout Pack

Age Range, Uniform and Programme
i. The core age range of the Cub Scout
Pack is from 8 years to 10½ years. A young
person may join at 7½ years and remain in
the Pack until their 11th birthday.

There is very clear flexibility in that statement, so I suggest you point the Leader at that and, if he or she still won't relent, speak to the Group Scout Leader.

There may be logistical reasons why they want him to move on now, such as pressure from Beavers moving up into Cubs, but no child should be forced to leave the Scout movement in this way. One of our primary duties as leaders is to try to ensure the retention of Young People in the movement. members.scouts.org.uk/supportresources/search/?cat=715,754

Hope that helps ...

[Waltons]

While I'm about it ...

In the same document:

Rule 3.9 The Scout Troop
Size of Troop
a. There is no recommended maximum size for
a Troop.

(In practice there may be a limitation because of physical space, numbers of leaders, etc, but to force out an existing committed member because of those would be very unusual. Forward planning of numbers is a key part of the GSL's/Leaders' jobs.)

Rule 3.42 Responsibilities of Appointments in the Scout Group

d. The Section Leader

i. The Section Leader is responsible for
planning and implementing a high quality
balanced Programme for the Section,
subject to the general supervision of the
Group Scout Leader and with the assistance
of Assistant Section Leaders, Section
Assistants and Skills Instructors.

ii. It is a Leader’s responsibility actively to
encourage transfer between the Sections.

Can you tell that this sort of thing annoys me?

[Tinklewinkle]

DH is a Scout Leader and in his troop they tend to move the cubs up in groups at the beginning of a term, any time from when they're 10.5 up until their 11th birthday - some may have just turned 10.5 and some nearly 11 if that makes sense. They don't have to leave at 10.5, as long as they do by the time they're 11. Obviously they don't stick to that rigidly, they don't make children who don't want to move up , move if they don't need to, but it makes it easier as each section moves groups of children up at the same time

Have they given a reason why he can't leave cubs and just wait for a place at the Friday night troop? DH has new starters that haven't come up from cubs. Some of them did Beavers, hated cubs and left, then started again at Scouts, some of them have never done Beavers or cubs and just jumped straight to Scouts. They don't have to move straight from one to another or never darken their doors again if you see what I mean

[Youmakemydreams]

Does it actually say they may start at 7 1/2 because the version I have counters that and the stay until 11 with in some circumstances and gives the example of a cub being one of the youngest but that others in his school class are already 8 and moving up from beavers. I can't remember exactly what it says about 11 whether that is certain circumstances or not but I do know
It mentions it.

We are nearly at capacity and had a waiting list earlier in the year because of ratios. We just don't have the adult volunteers to expand our numbers currently and in fact nearly closed last year because of it.

[ChippyMinton]

If the troops are part of the same group, it's worth asking if they mind asking parents if someone would be willing to swap nights?

[Tinklewinkle]

I know my own DD didn't start Scouts until she was nearly 11

She has a 1st September birthday and was due to move up to Scouts at Easter, but didn't want to as she'd have been moving up with the children in the year above her at school and wanted to move up with her own classmates. She did an extra term and left cubs when the term finished at the end of July and started Scouts when they went back in September

[Waltons]

Youmakemydreams, those are direct quotes from POR dated May 2015 and taken from the Scout Association website today. Not sure which version you have?

The rules changed on this point some years ago (around 2011, IIRC), so there is no excuse for the Cub leader not knowing about the "flexible age range" that was introduced then.

It applies to all children and the exact age of moving depends only on the circumstances - school years groupings, friendships groups, overall numbers in Cubs or Scouts, etc.

There is further flexibility for SEN children beyond the age of 11 with District permission, but that doesn't apply here.

What I can't fathom here is how decisions are made as to which Cubs move up to which Scout Troop. OP, which nights do the Cub Packs meet on?

[Waltons]

BTW, Youmakemydreams, I wasn't having a go at you.

Too many of us in Scouting get fed "local rules", which are someone else's version of the real thing and rarely correct!

[clottedcreamteawithscone]

omg thank you Walton for this...i havent heard from the Scout Leader as yet after I sent the email today I did suggest could he stay until a space became available or leave and be first on the waiting list. If I had known the above I would of quoted it. Our Cubs leader has only said he's 10.5 so has to move up no other explanation actually i did say a few weeks ago can he stay until a place becomes available and he smiled and said no.

[Waltons]

Happy to help.

Let us know where you get to, and please do talk to the Group Scout Leader if necessary.

If you need to PM me, that is OK.

[clottedcreamteawithscone]

ok thank you I have sent the Group Scout Leader the email so will see what he comes back with

[museumum]

Not the same laws in guides but when I was a guide leader my area HAD to move brownies into guides at 10 because otherwise the rainbows couldn't get into brownies and then there weren't any spaces in rainbows. Rainbows are age 4-7 and we could have girls on the waiting list from birth who were nearly 7 before a space came up :( we needed around three more rainbow packs but no adult volunteers :( :( :(

We could however let a 10yr old brownie leave brownies and be top of the list for the guide night or location they wanted. But they could be out for a year :(

[clottedcreamteawithscone]

Ive just heard from a mum whose son didnt do beavers or cubs but wanted to do Scouts was told doesnt work like that he cant just come to scouts. So she contacted the Group Scout Leader to appeal and got a place - funnily enough this was last year in the group/night my son wants to go into so in affect he has taken a place away from say my Son or someone who has gone through the groups

[ragged]

DS joined Scouts when he was 12 having never done Beavers or Cubs, was not an issue. I understand why Cubs might need him to move on no matter what, but am astonished if your son can't just have a gap while he waits for a space to come up on the right night.

[Pandsala]

I'm a Rainbow leader (5-7 yr olds) so not a hundred percent sure on scouting rules but I know from talking to my cub leader sister that in her area children who are currently at beavers and cubs get priority for spaces when moving up sections, as do people who are transferring from another group, so it may be worth seeing if theres another scout troop you could get to as in her district at least he'd be top of the waiting lists at the moment but once he's left cubs any cub ready to go up will get priority to clear spaces for Beavers to move up so if the area is oversubscribed he could be waiting a very long time.

[clottedcreamteawithscone]

Good news...The Group Scout Leader has agreed for him to stay on for 3 months...that takes us to Nov/Dec when there should be a place available but it was a very stern "due to the circumstances, I will allow"

[Waltons]

Good news indeed, but there's no need for the sucking lemons bit. He or she isn't God, they're just a GSL and the rules are quite clear for all to see.

A lot of Groups lose a Scout or two at the start of the autumn term so there is likely to be a place. If one doesn't come up, drop back here and I can help you to escalate it. I'll keep you on my watched threads list.

[meeps]

My son dragged his heels about leaving cubs as he hadn't long been a sixer and was comfortable there, plus scouts is mostly kids at the top end of their age. He got a couple of nudges and an 'isn't it about time' and then overlapped with a few weeks doing both,which they call being a scub.By that point he was over 11. Mind you he is only getting invested this week so I think our lot might just be quite laid back...