Musical intelligence - how to encourage

[JumpJockey]

ok so maybe this is us massively over- interpreting, but dh and I who are both singers think dd1 (3.3) is showing signs of some real musical understanding. She can sing in tune very well, both accompanied and on her own, which is fairly normal, but just recently we were listening to some choral music and she started singing along to something she'd not heard before - pitching and anticipating notes correctly, singing the 3rd of a final chord, and even making up something in the musical style of what she'd been listening to (tudor polyphony so not exactly nursery rhymes).

What's the best way to encourage this and help her develop? We do lots of singing and she likes to pretend to play my guitar, but other than that are there any other activities to help her keep this going? The music groups we've tried are usually just nursery rhymes, banging drums etc, and often the standard of the instructors isn't great (not in tune etc) which doesn't help what she's already good at.

Am at computer intermittemtly atm so am not ignoring any replies, will check back tomorrow! Thanks :)

[DeWe]

2 of my dc were singing in tune from a year, my middle one was later, but is developing a lovely alto at age 8yo.

I don't think you really need to do anything other than keep singing. We'll have them all round the piano singing at times, and they'll join in with stuff they hear on the radio. Just make it fun.

[lancelottie]

Weirdly, my toothgrindingly tuneless least obviously musical toddler looks like turning out to be quite a fine musician in his teens. The key things seem to be that he's keen, and practises, and goes to lots of groups (instrumental and choral). His more naturally musical sibs are both less confident and more anxious about performing, so haven't really developed their talents.

So: I'd say, keep her confidence high, and keep the fun in it! Great that she has both of you to sing with (I'm envious, as a somewhat tuneless and unconfident singer in an otherwise musical family).

[Emandlu]

My dd went to a music class from the age of 4. She learnt to read music and play the recorder, then the keyboard.
Now she plays the Piano and French Horn and loves her music. I have taken her to music events (orchestras and so on) from the age of 7 and always had music around the house too.
My mum bought me a recorder and a recorder book and I taught myself to read music that way - I would have been about 4 or 5 at the time. You could do something like that with your dd perhaps? (I mean you could go through it with her, not just give her the book).

[lingle]

totally agree with lancelottie.

I also have a moderately talented child outstripping his more talented brother - makes me sad.

[ZZZenAgain]

keep singing with her and around her and find a nice place for her to sing when she is old enough to join some kind of laid back fun choir. I am not musical, I think it must be lovely for dc to grow up with music a natural part of your home life. If she is seeing you play the guitar, it will just seem to her a perfectly natural thing to play an instrument when she is older. Maybe expose her to some different kinds of instruments.

I remember when dd was 4 I had the idea she could learn the cello (mainly because a good friend of mine does and I love the way she looks and sounds with the cello) and I took her to meet the head of that dept in the music school where we were at the time in Germany. This teacher said "I really don't know why I am saying this but your dd looks like a pianist to me. I can't put my finger on it but I look at her and I see she is a pianist. Maybe wait and see if she doesn't choose the piano for herself." Actually I had no intention of her learning the piano (too unwieldly for people like us who move about a lot) but I left it for a bit to see if she found something she liked and she chose violin. She must have picked out the sound from hearing orchestral music I suppose, I certainly never flogged the idea. Your dd sounds like she has a fabulous ear so when she hears the instrument (apart from voice) that attracts her, I think she will definitely know.

She sounds very sweet singing along at 3 like that. I don't think that what she can do is "normal", sounds like she is exceptional to me.

[ZZZenAgain]

that was so waffly I lost my point which was supposed to be with an ear like hers, she will know her instrument if she is exposed to it.

[lancelottie]

Lingle, I wonder if the difference is that tuneless DS2 couldn't hear and therefore didn't care about his own mistakes, so wasn't embarrassed by them? Whereas DS1 winces at a wrong note, his own or anyone else's, so hated mixed beginner groups, and now isn't good enough for the nicer-sounding ones.

[ZZZenAgain]

what instrument lancelotte, can't he learn on his own 1-1?

[ZZZenAgain]

just thinking OP, do you know about the Kodaly method? It is a concept of furthering musicality via singing AFAIK. My dd didn't do it and I have never met anyone who has experience of it but maybe it would fit your dc very well. Not sure from what age they take them.

[pianomama]

I was about to suggest the same :) .
My DS had few Kodaly lessons when he was 4-5.Included clapping and "working" rhythms, using sheep and lambs for different note values etc. Some conducting too - unfortunately the teacher moved so we didn't take it too far.

I wonder if she might have a perfect pitch which is quite rare (according to some musicians it might be a curse) . I don't think it is easy to test at that age. I would try and see whether she prefers the sound of string instruments like cello as naturally they are closer to singing sound or violin to say piano.

[lingle]

"DS2 couldn't hear and therefore didn't care about his own mistakes, so wasn't embarrassed by them? Whereas DS1 winces at a wrong note, his own or anyone else's, so hated mixed beginner groups, and now isn't good enough for the nicer-sounding ones."

do you reckon that's what happened with yours? I can understand that, I helped a little girl on violin last year. Her ear was so much better than mine, she kept wincing and saying "but it isn't right". I thought it was a confidence or skills problem then my colleague pointed out that it was actually the curse of very good pitch sensitivity.

Is your DS1 still playing Lancellotie? I'm sure it isn't too late to restrategise. The guitar, for instance, is an extremely forgiving instrument.... would he consider that?

[HeyNonnyNo]

Evening. We're in the same boat, met dh in national youth choir and 3yo dd is deeply into choirs. It's tough when there aren't choirs for keen small people to join in with. We are doing a few things. Getting her excited and inspired by music, e.g. sitting at the back of national youth choir rehearsals when they're rehearsing something jolly. At home we do lots of rounds and call and response type fun music. We are doing Suzuki violin which really gets the music going v young. We've also found an amazing class teaching smallies about reading and understanding music with games. If you are in Kent I can give you more info. She and the baby play on floor while I have singing lessons and join in with silly noises.

National youth choir of Scotland have classes and some books highly recommended for tots.

And yes to kodaly method. Round here musical bumps claim to use it in their music class.

[maggiethecat]

Re Kodaly, if you are in London, Guildhall's Kindergarten course incorporates Kodaly and rhythm training for young children but very difficult to get in to -need to put name down from very early but worth having a try.

[JumpJockey]

Thanks all, some really helpful ideas there. Will definiely look into Kodaly method for kids, she's quite physical in her learning so it would be ideal (I remember there's something about using hand gestures for pitches). Re instruments, interestingly she always wants trumpet music - we listen to a lot of Bach on historical instruments and the trumpet does sound closer to vocal tone than modern bands. She also says she's "inducting" a lot - ie waving a breadstick around and telling us to be louder or quieter

Suzuki method - does one of the parents need to play violin to be able to help with practice? We're lucky to be in a city with lots of high quality music for kids when they're older (think 9 lessons and carols...) but for younger ones we've not looked into formal lerning yet. Plenty to think about, thanks very much everyone.

[pianomama]

My DS used to "induct" with anything he could find - pencils, forks, sticks etc. We had to make sure he always had an "inducting" something handy :).

[pianomama]

Speaking of sensitive pitch - has anyone ever heard a child complaining of ringing in their ears? I wonder if this can be connected?

[lancelottie]

He's starting to sing again, Lingle :) which is great. Learnt flute for a while but couldn't get to grips with reading music.

[MrsWeasley]

Try to find out if there is a "Music Service" in your area (ask your local council) they often run a class for pre-schoolers. (try googling the name of your nearest town and Music Service)

At ours the children sing and get a chance to play lots of different instruments. Its fantastic.

[DeWe]

As an interesting one: Dh has perfect pitch, but he couldn't sing in tune until he was about 12 or 13.
Dd1 also has-she pointed out some notes on a piano that was slightly out of tune (I certainly couldn't tell) at about 2yo, but dh confirmed it. She also used to comment from that age if something was in a different key from the usual one. Suspect ds may well has-he certainly acts in pain at a dischord.

One of dh's friend's who teaches music has a pupil who sees different notes as colours when he plays. Apparently he's very musical.

[lingle]

lancelottie,

oh reading music, my bete noire.

can anything else be so responsible for turning so many musical people off music?

How old is he now? again, guitars are "agnostic" as to whether you read music or learn a different way. Ds2 goes to a rock school where you don't have to read music at all, you are allowed to play completely by ear.

[flussymummy]

Pianomama- yes, I think it can be connected- a very dear friend of ours is a concert pianist who sang in choirs a lot as a young child an had tinnitus for a while at about age 8 and "hooked" his understanding of pitch to the memory of the tinnitus note- now has the best ear of any pro musician I've ever met. Watching this thread with interest as we have two DDs aged 4 and 2 and I'm trying to decide what to do with them re instrumental tuition. I'm a professional violinist and we sing with the children all the time and listen to lots of different styles of music. There does seem to be a gap in the market between the baby classes and actual instrumental lessons though. We started Suzuki lessons but it wasn't for us- DD was very unimpressed as a two year old at being "made" to stand on a mat and hold a cardboard violin for a 50 minute lesson! I've recently started them on the piano with a book called "Dogs and Birds" which is aimed at age 3 upwards with an emphasis on ear-training and singing- seems to be very good so far!

[pianomama]

Thanks flussymummy - that's good to know! I also noticed he is not very keen on the sounds of being in the big loud orchestra as if it causes him pain, but loves chamber groups etc. Did your friends tinnitus do away? Did it affect his piano playing?

Agree about early instrumental lessons - there is a big gap and lack of teachers. Suzuki tend to start earlier but is not to everyone's taste.
I had to beg my DS (conventional) violin teacher to start with him when he was 5 as he thought he was too young, but DS had very good concentration span so it worked well for him. He was taught to read music straight away.
Friends DS just started at the age of 4 on the piano with a teacher who teaches him for 15 mins and his mum for 15 mins (I believe this is Suzuki approach) .
We unintentionally exposed DS to loads of music we played at home, in the car , he loved watching ballet DVDs etc.Took him to concerts as he used to enjoy just sitting and listening to music..Don't know how much more you can do with 2-4 yo.

[yellowhouse]

My older two children are very musical, we also have some very talented musicians in our extended family. My DD1 went to some brilliant ballet classes at age 3 and they really did develop her rhythm. They were excellent though, they used body and movement to classical music (no singing though) and still to this day I feel it has really helped DD1 (she now does proper ballet but she also plays piano and violin).

Also following others' advice, it is worth persevering with finding teachers for musical instruments. Maybe not at 3 but if she is very musical 4 could be a good start. I taught both of mine the piano at 4 and they took to it so well that I managed to persuade a teacher to take them both on. At 5 my DS1 also started the violin and he is literally flying now with both instruments.

Finally I would say to go with the flow but don't be put off by teachers who say it's not worth/they won't teach young children, mine are living evidence that if a child is ready they can start very early. Just go on youtube you'll be surprised how many child prodiges there are on the piano and violin!!

[lancelottie]

Lingle, he's 15, and has recently tried guitar but has very long, somewhat hypermobile fingers and finds in painful after a while.

[difficultpickle]

You can take dcs to concerts from aged 2 or 3. The ones they have at the Royal Festival Hall in London are particularly good as dcs can try out instruments before and after the concerts. They have them at the Barbican too.

Ds is 7 and has always been able to sing in tune and can learn a tune from hearing it once.