What to do about DD2s school music teacher- advice please.

[Downnotout]

DD2 has been having singing/ piano lessons at school for 3 years. She is 9. In singing she is working for grade 3. Piano she has been working to grade 1 for ages. She has passed all her exams at distinction so far. Is placed 1st or 2nd in music festivals.

She also sings in the junior section of a very well known choral society, and has been a soloist for them- she won their special award this year.

Her music teacher was not entering her in local music festivals last year as the age group was under 12 and she said there was no point as DD was too young but her choral teacher suggested she enter a couple and she came 2nd in both ( beating others from school 2 years above.)

I think her school teacher has taken offence at this, but there was none intended and I did check with her beforehand. I have found out today that she has entered some girls again for festivals and not DD. As for piano, she has been plodding away at grade 1 pieces for two years, we have been through two different sets of grade one books and theory books and still she has not put her in for her exam. DD has been ready for sometime.

Last year the teacher suggested DD would be a candidate for music scholarships by year 6 and told me she should be able to get to grade 5 singing and grade 3 piano easily by then. She also plays another instrument.

DD is frightened of her teacher. She says she shouts if she gets things wrong. I have heard of other children giving up because she can be really nasty to them. I think she is sapping DDs confidence.

I don't think DD is a prodigy or anything but she loves her music. When she's alone at home she learns things off you tube like Time to say Goodbye, flower duet, Ave Maria but says that is her "secret voice" and that she's afraid to sing that way in front of her teacher. She is also doing exams through Trinity Guildhall as her teacher says the Royal College of music ones are ridiculous for young children. Her choral teacher disagrees and says they are better.

I'm not musical so I don't know. But she hasn't been entered for any exams this term and is learning a piece from Glee?.. In singing and having perfected her grade one pieces is starting a different piece in piano again. Does this sound right?

[snice]

I don't know a lot about this but I do know that I wouldn't send my daughter to a teacher she was scared of

[snice]

I don't know a lot about this but I do know that I wouldn't send my daughter to a teacher she was scared of

[LittleMissWoodscommaElle]

No singing exams are better as such but they do have different emphasis.

ABRSM are mor of a classical approach to be honest the syllabus is rather old fashioned (same pieces as when I did them 20 years ago and they can put some children especially older beginners off.

trinity are a mix of classical/legit style musical theatre (think Oliver & Sound of Music rather than Wicked.

London College do musical theatre exams - these are very popular and kids are encouraged to sing in a range of styles from legit (old fashioned musicals as above) to more popular styles.

A good teacher will choose the exam board accoring to the interest and aptitude of her pupils. I also beleive that children whilst learning good technique should learn that different voice qualities should be used for different types of song.

it sounds like your dd needs a change of teacher.

[snailoon]

I would switch piano teachers immediately. Ask for recommendations for a good piano teacher from other parents and teachers of other instruments who have children themselves if you know any.
Would her choral coach give her singing lessons or recommend a teacher?
I would try to find a teacher who realises that learning music isn't about exams and competitions. Exams can be useful at times, but are quite an artificial goal. Many professional musicians and serious students don't bother with them at all.
Certainly, she shouldn't be scared of her teacher.

[Downnotout]

Thanks for your replies.

I feel silly having let this continue so long without questioning her methods tbh. I think she wants everyone to pass with distinction, that is why things move so slowly. DD passed her grade 2 with the highest % the teacher had ever had so it looks good for the teacher but gets very dull when you take a year to learn 3 songs to perfection.

I know grades and music festivals aren't the be all and end all but i do think they're valuable experience and if the teacher is entering others but not DD, when she knows she sails through them makes me Wonder why.

DD gets so much more out of the choral- regular concerts, the opportunity to sing solos, workshops and most of all, encouragement. All for £3 a week as opposed to the very expensive lessons in school.

I think I will ask to speak to her ( we never get that opportunity funnily enough) and ask around for alternatives.

Thanks again.

[DeWe]

I'm a bit confused with the teachers.
Does the "music" teacher teach just her singing, and the school one teach her piano? And does the "choral" teacher do the choral group, or teach her individually?

Which teacher said she should be at grade 5, and grade 3 by year 6? And does that mean before starting y6 or at the end? Because a lot of music scholarships round here state that the child should have grade 4 minimum to apply, so she'd need that probably by January at the lastest to apply.

If she hasn't done grade 1 after playing for 3 years I'd think there must be something wrong somewhere. Which may be just the teacher!

Dd1 (age 10) has done roughly 1 piano exam a year including prep test and has just done grade 3, hoping to do grade 4 next year. She started singing 5 terms ago and has done grade 3 last summer, was hoping to do grade 4 at Easter, unfortunately the teacher has had to give up. Both are ABRSM exams.
I think this is fairly normal progress, so I'm just trying to think where your dd could be given normal progress, probably working for grade 3 in piano?

I'd have thought that the music teacher wasn't leaving her out of entering the competitions, just assuming that she would be entered with the choral teacher again, and not wanting to step on toes.

However I'd query the piano position, and look for another teacher. It's not a group lesson and playing to the lowest standard is it? (seen that one happen to a child and they hadn't told her parents. ) As she's frightened of her teacher I'd stop the lessons with immediate effect if possible, it doesn't seem fair for her to continue repeating the same ground when she's not even enjoying it.

It's not too late to enter for exams this term if she's ready. So you could try asking for her to be put in for grade 1 this term. I don't think I had to confirm it before half term for December exam. If you find another teacher quickly, they may well be happy to enter her.

[mistlethrush]

Yes, if she's learning just grade pieces, change teacher. I only did grade pieces the term I was doing my exam (at the lower grades). Grades aren't everything either - I have one instrument on which I only did 2 exams (my main one) and didn't start violin grades until Grade 5.

[Downnotout]

Sorry to confuse.
She has individual lessons in school for singing, piano and recorder with the same teacher. It was this teacher who said she would be a candidate for scholarship and suggested she would push her on, even that she would consider skipping a grade, as she was "talented."

The choral is completely separate.

We live "up north" and there are plenty of schools round here that don't particularly look at grade levels, but more on commitment and promise and what the child can bring to the school. This is where her choral experience comes in- it's a well known society internationally and this carries some prestige. Unfortunately there are no Minster schools locally, otherwise we would have gone down the chorister route.

There is no provision in school for other instruments. So while it has been suggested to us that DD moves on to saxophone from recorder, it is not offered in school.

The piano thing is driving me mad. It's not just DD, two children have just taken initial after 4 years! The most promising girl in school is 11 and at grade 3. Can it really be that all the children are poor and just wasting their money on these lessons or is it something to do with the teaching? Most give up after a few lessons because of the way this teacher speaks to them even calling them stupid or idiot.

You may think I'm daft having continued for so long but it was handy that she had the lessons in school, as she is very busy outside school with her other commitments. But now I realise that she's not been entered for anything again, and have looked into what the other children are achieving ( not much it seems). I just trusted that her school music teacher knows best but I'm not so sure. That's why I say does this sound right to you?


And yes, I would have thought one grade per year in piano would be average- though it certainly isnt in our school!

[LittleMissWoodscommaElle]

Are you Manchester based at all. Wondering if it is H chorus as I have 2 students in that.

[stealthsquiggle]

On the one hand - she shouldn't be scared of her music teacher. There is just no need - DS adores his piano teacher and that doesn't stop her telling him off if he hasn't practised!

Can the choral group help you find other teacher(s)?

OTOH - you have prompted me - DS has been doing Grade 1 pieces for nearly 2 terms now with no date for exam in sight and I must query it with the head of music.

[snailoon]

Please get away from the obsession with grades. Concerts, playing with other kids / grownups, learning lots of different pieces, playing for assembly / church / grandparents, having fun with music, are all much more important. We are a family of musicians, with children (who never did grades) in the NYO. I know I am repeating myself--- sorry about that, but you don't want to spoil the fun for your daughter.

[stealthsquiggle]

..but, snailoon, whilst grades are not the be all and end all, there doesn't seem much point in working on pieces which are specifically for a given grade and not doing the exam, does there? My DS plays for enjoyment, plays in school concerts, etc, etc - all of which is great, but he is a very goal-orientated child and having a piece of paper confirming that he has reached a given standard would be good for his confidence, IMHO (not to mention the fact that in a few years time it would form a good addition to other activities and evidence in applying for all-rounder scholarships - but that is my agenda, not his, and I would never ever mention it to him). I would hate his music to be solely focused on exams, but it does seem a bit daft not to do them as/when he happens to be ready.

[Downnotout]

Sadly not Manchester little miss woods. Other side of the pennines.

Snail- it's not that I'm obsessed with grades. It is that she isn't progressing in piano. There is no playing with others in assembly or concerts. There is no fun in it for her. I think she ia actually struggling to find the point in it.

Singing is different because she does the choral out of school and gets so much from it. Totally different story in school. She is forced to go to the school choir by her teacher, everyone else in her year dropped out because they hated it. I have only once in the last 5 years seen the school choir sing, it is so poorly attended that they don't even sing as a choir in the (annual) music evening.

[marge2]

I gave up violin after Grade 5 because of a shouty, sweary male violin teacher. If my parents had found me a new teacher earlier I might not have been so keen to give up. He was a total confidence sapper. Get your DD a new teacher.

[Downnotout]

Actually Snailoon what you have said has confirmed my suspicions.

Grades aside, if DD is not being given the opportunity to have fun with music, to perform at school or in music festivals, and is scared of her teacher then it is clearly a waste of money.

[DeWe]

If I was you, I'd drop the recorder and look at taking up another instrument like sax, or if she fancies it a different instrument. Something that if she's applying for music scholarships they would look at and say it would be great for the orchestra/band etc. She'll also get a lot of fun out of being in an orchestra/band.

I'd ask the choral teacher if she could do individual lessons, or recommend someone, and look for a piano teacher with a recommendation. Asking other children at the choral group maight well turn up a good teacher.

The point I see in exams is it gets the child practicing with an end in sight to produce a really finished piece. Otherwise you can get into the habit of flipping a piece through without that final polish. Yes, you can get that with a concert etc. but I generally agree with stealth.

If you want to talk to the school teacher then I'd remind her about what she said about the exams. Ask her about whether she still feels that is true.

I'm not saying it's anything like impossible, but (assuming your dd is year 5) going from not having done grade 1 (and by the sound of it, only working at grade 1 pieces, so it's not that she's doing harder pieces) could turn out to be a bit of a slog to get through grade 3 in two years. That might put her off in itself. You also might want to ask when she's doing grade 3 in singing. I'd be concerned that with the track record on the piano she might still be "preparing for grade 3" next summer.

But I'd be looking elsewhere for the lessons.

[Downnotout]

Thanks DeWe.
I am making enquiries about piano teachers and have someone in mind for singing.

[LittleMissWoodscommaElle]

Are you anywhere near Cantamus? They provide some wonderful opportunities for young singers.

[ZZZenAgain]

I agree with DeWe, speak to the choral teacher and ask for a recommendation for a piano teacher. Ask around at the choir, bound to be other parents there whose dc learn the piano. I would get her private lessons in piano/singing outside of school and drop the recorder, if it helps you pay for those.

My dd has never done an exam or competition because I really don't like the idea of it but she does do workshops, orchestra weeks and weekends, recitals and she enjoys all of those to the hilt. Some people like the idea of exams, others don't. Who knows what is right but it should not be all about that kind of thing IMO. Are they being trained to pass exams or are they being trained to play and enjoy their music in the end?

I mean no offence to teachers/parents who like exams - just my pointo f view.

[ZZZenAgain]

I really couldn't sing for someone who screams at me, I would just block up. How would you get your voice out if you were scared?

[Downnotout]

Littlemisswoods- no that's Mansfield isn't it?

I should pointout that we are not looking for a music scholarship and not expecting/aiming for that. Just that this teacher suggested she was a candidate for one and that things have gone down hill since then. It's as if the teacher can't be bothered anymore.

We do pay about £500 a term for these extras anyway ZZZen. So it's only a case of finding the time to do lessons outside of school. And bloody recorder.... If it wasn't for the fact that it helps with reading music and can lead on to other instruments we'd have stopped that long ago!

[ZZZenAgain]

I think piano is better for reading music tbh and if you have piano, you don't need the recorder for reading music IYSWIM. If she enjoys recorder, by all means keep it up, but otherwise I would disentangle her from this teacher

[ZZZenAgain]

it is abit difficult to understand. Why does the school teacher think she is not at a level for the competitions but the choral teacher thinks she is? Why does the school teacher feel she is not ready for grade 1 yet after 3 years? Has she ever said what exactly still needs to be worked on?

Might be worth paying another teacher to spend a half hour with your dd in order to assess where she is atm with the piano.

[Downnotout]

Ok. I have had a sneaky talk to DD about how her music lessons are going and she says "mummy she's only nice when someone else is there and when I get things wrong she slams her hand down and says - you stupid little girl! "

DD says this makes her so nervous she can't concentrate and that if teacher is having a "bad day" and has had a couple of poor pupils before DDs lesson she gets in a particularly bad mood.

When I asked why she hadn't told me this before she says that she's just like that with everyone. I think DD just thinks that's how it is.

There is only one girl in school who is beyond grade 1 in piano. Surely this indicates that the teaching is lacking? Also of all the music festivals we have done over the last few years the teacher has never once attended. Does this show disinterest?

So, knowing what I know now, how do I broach this at school. I actually feel quite angry now and asking about, other parents are dissatisfied too.

[stealthsquiggle]

"she slams her hand down and says - you stupid little girl! "

That would be that for me. No more lessons, and ask for a meeting with the head to explain why. Poor DD - it seems to me that if she has persisted through that then she will probably blossom with a decent teacher.

You can tell a lot from what other pupils have and haven't done, IMO. I was interested to note that there seem to be lots of good pianists and no violinists at DS's school. Then I heard a class play having had a year's group violin lessons and understood why - it was shocking (and I do know enough to know more or less what they should have been able to achieve in that time). DD currently seems like she may be interested in violin, so I already know that if/when she wants to do it, I will be looking for a teacher outside school, much as the lessons in school would be convenient.