What do you eat before a run if you don't eat 'carbs'?

[actiongirl1978]

I have been running for just over two years but it has always just been for fun. However I have decided to get a bit more serious, have extended my distances and am cross training with weights and pilates.

Since I started running I have largely eaten a diet which doesn't include grains or potatoes (it works for me, the reintroduction of grains gives me stomach ache) though I always eat all fruit etc. My normal breakfast is a couple of handfuls of cashew nuts plus sometimes a small banana and decaf coffee.

I have generally run empty straight out of bed but I am now running later in the day due to a house move which means we now haven no streetlights! So my question is what do you eat for fuel if you are not running first thing in the morning?

I ran my first 10k on Sunday - the race started at ten am and so at 6.30am I had my cashews and banana. But I felt that my energy levels fell sharply at about 7k and I wonder if I could eat differently and get a better result. My time was 61mins so pretty much bang on my training pace, but I did feel like I was totally knackered!

I think I have mixed up several questions here, but essentially I want to know what do you eat and what could I or should I eat differently for better results?

Thanks!

[Suzannewithaplan]

Nothing, I always exercise in a fasted state, I can manage a couple of hours cardio, about the equivalent of 10 miles slowish running having not eaten for 12 hours previously?.
I recon I have enough storaged glycogen and body fat to last a while?

[actiongirl1978]

Suzanne - that's really interesting. As I said that was always my way off running before, I suppose I thought I ought to eat now I am doing more than my 5 k pootle!

What do you eat afterwards? This morning I was absolutely starving after a five mile cross train and had four scrambled eggs (period due too so maybe that explains my increase in appetite!) but I do occasionally get bored of my nuts...

[Suzannewithaplan]

Afterwards?
toast and peanut butter, I should fess up and admit I eat loads of carbs
my last meal at night is porridge toast and chocolate.
?

[actiongirl1978]

ha ha ha! fair enough! It is still interesting though that you don't need to refuel before a work out though, I might go back to my original way of thinking on that one.

I would still love to hear what others on no grain or potatoes do re: fueling though.

[Sofarris]

I'm currently doing the insanity workout (I know it's not exactly the same as running but there's a fair bit of cardio involved) and I don't eat a huge amount of carbs.

Breakfast is normally muesli with zero fat greek yoghurt (it's very high in protein)

During the day I have two portions of fruit and a portion of veg plus handfuls of nuts when I'm peckish. I also have a big salad for lunch with either chicken or tuna (again, nice source of protein)

I then work out late afternoon.

For dinner I cook some form of meat (usually chicken) with a form of carbs (rice, pasta or potato) and a couple more servings of veg.

Then it's a diet protein shake later in the evening and if I can manage it some more natural yoghurt.

As you can see it's not a carb heavy diet at all but it keeps me fuelled all day.

I forgot to mention that I also have electrolyte powder that I mix with some lemon squash and drink before and during working out to keep me topped up.

I hope this helps and gives you a few ideas actiongirl1978!

[HolyQuadrityDrinkFeckArseGirls]

There is a book called The Art and Science of Low Carbohydrate Performance that might answer your question. I haven't read it but I ordered it from Amazon and am going to pick it up later! I do weight mainly and LC hence the purchase.

[HolyQuadrityDrinkFeckArseGirls]

you will need fat if you don't eat much carbs so a low fat yoghurt is a no-no. full fat greek yoghurt or clotted cream/ heavy double cream with berries perhaps.

[Suzannewithaplan]

you don't need to refuel before a work out

thing is, refueling isn't as simple as say putting petrol in a tank.

When you eat something how long does it take for your body to process that food to the point where the energy contained in the chemical bonds can be liberated and used as fuel by your muscles?
Several hours surely?

Furthermore if you are exercising blood is diverted away from the digestive system to the active muscle, so the digestive process will slow down and it will take even longer for the food you last ate to be available as fuel.

[actiongirl1978]

Holy - yes I do eat a lot of fat, including full fat Greek yog, skin on chicken, meat of every kind, pulses. So I wonder if I just need to train more and then my energy levels won't dip quite so easily or quickly. Training is fine, weights and shorter runs I never struggle with. I am going to have a look at that book you mentioned. There was a lot of divided opinion on the runners world thread I read through yesterday.

Solaris - yes loads of ideas, I hadn't thought of drinking anything other than water, makes sense that squash might give me the energy I need. Also will have a look at protein shakes!

[actiongirl1978]

Suzanne, I suppose I am thinking that if I eat a dinner of veg and meat or fish followed by fruit and Greek yoghurt at 8pm will that leave me with enough energy at 10am the next morning to run 10k? I thought that yes it would with my top up of cashews and small banana, but I wonder if I did need to have something else at dinner or very early that morning - appreciating that I don't want to be spending energy digesting food while I am running, or indeed feeling sick!

I guess I had never really considered it as a problem as training on empty was easy and I always felt energised but as I start to extend my distances should I be giving more thought to nutrition rather than just hoping for the best!

[Suzannewithaplan]

I dont pretend to know what will work for other people Actiongirl, mostly I avoid eating before training because it gives me indigestion and makes me feel sluggish.
I also think that in part lots of us have certain routines or 'rituals' that we use to put us in the what feels like the right physical and psychological state for exercising (well I know I do anyway)

I found this blog (Peter Attia) quite interesting on the subject of low carb and exercise eatingacademy.com/

[actiongirl1978]

Suzanne thank you, you really have been helpful. I will have a look at the blog.

I am beginning to realise just how much stuff is out there on training and nutrition and it's hard to find a way through, but you are right a lot comes down to how the food makes you feel.

[actiongirl1978]

Wow that blog is really useful. He eats like I eat, though I am very nut heavy when I get hungry. Thanks Suzannewithaplan.

[twobambinos]

I don't know alot about nutrition but I have been running for over a year now, the first time I completed the 10km I was absolutely worn out. I was fairly fit anyway as do alot of crows training. Pilates, pool. Maybe your body just needs to get used to the longer distance? Sounds like you are doing great at 61 mins. My first 10km was 63 mins and the next was under 59 a month later and I wasn't half as tired. I'm now down to a little under 55 a year later but i run max twice a week. Id love to get it lower this year so hoping to invest in a treadmill I can use early morning late nite when kids are asleep.
Keep up the good work

[Suzannewithaplan]

Peter Attia has gone into the whole low carb thing in a very detailed and scientific way hasn't he!

[pootlebug]

I have been trying to tweak what I'm doing on this (and I'm not sure where I'm going with it yet but I can share the resources I've looked at etc)

I had a phase of eating pretty much Paleo, but did no exercise at the time. I then lapsed a bit, but still ate few grains….but my chocolate and ice cream consumption were less controlled. I started exercising around this time last year, then did 4 triathlons and a half marathon this summer/autumn. I did a lot of exercise without breakfast (had to be out early in the morning) and could happily exercise for 90 mins or so without anything. For racing I carbed up in advance with potato or sweet potato, or sometimes rice, then relied on energy gels and sports drinks during a race, albeit fairly sparingly (e.g. porridge for breakfast 2.5 hours before start, one bottle energy drink + one gel pre half marathon, one gel after 15k, protein+carb recovery drink straight after).

Because I am aiming for marathon/half ironman in 2015, and because I wanted to know what other options I had for nutrition, I read:

• The Art and Science of Low Carbohydrate Performance by Volek & Phinney)
  
• The Paleo diet for Athletes (revised edition) by Lauren Cordain
  
  Volek and Phinney advocate a permanent low-carb approach (i.e. for most people around 50g carbs per day. Which pretty much means no fruit except a few berries, no starchy veg etc. They say after an initial adaptation phase of about 6 weeks the body gets much more adapted to fat-burning during workouts…..so because the body stores so much fat, there's not much need to fuel during exercise. They also suggest that some athletes manage to 'sneak carbs in' around racing without interfering too much with their fat-burning ability, but don't give a lot of info on how to go about this.
  
  The Paleo Diet for Athletes advocates a more rounded Paleo approach - but with carbs (in the form of carb-y fruit, sweet potatoes etc) specifically for pre race carb-loading and post-race recovery (in conjunction with protein). Then gels, energy drinks etc during a race and optionally for initial post-race recovery.
  
  I am experimenting with the lower carb approach. I've only been eating that way just over 2 weeks though - I deliberately started one day after my half marathon, and picked that time because I was doing a self-imposed two weeks off training. I've only just gone back to training….I was okay during a 45 minute spin session and 25 minute swim back-to-back this morning - slower on the bike than I used to be but to be expected as I've not done any bike training since the start of August as I focussed on running.
  
  I've also found Nell Stephenson's blog interesting reading (you have to scroll through a lot to find the bits you want). She is an extremely good amateur ironman triathlete - has qualified for the world championship several times and finished well up in her age group. She's strict Paleo, other than adding gels etc whilst racing. She goes for the Cordain approach of carving up before exercise and carbs during. Her blog is paleoista.com
  
  I am finding the lower level of carbs frustrating - I have no desire to stuff my face with bread, but would really love a satsuma! I suspect I'll aim more towards the other approach but wanted to try lower carb to see how it works for me, and to try and get myself back out of my chocolate and ice cream habits.
  
  Good luck! And sorry that this is such an essay. Should we have a low-carving athletes thread maybe?

[Suzannewithaplan]

Pootle, thats very interesting, although I find it easy to stay lean on a high carb diet I know many people find low carb works well for them.

Did you have any experience of a similar exercise regime when eating a more 'average' level of carbs?
Just wondering if you have anything to compare your low carb performance with?

[actiongirl1978]

Pootlebug, thanks so much for replying. I definitely err on the paleo side of things (95% of the time anyway!) though would find it super hard to give up dairy - I am thinking of trying to make my own nut milks soon to see if I can adapt. I think the thing about the fruit is frankly I get bored and I generally feel better to eat fruit than dark choc, better to eat dark choc than crisps etc!

I would be really interested to hear how you get on with this WOE, and yes perhaps we do need a thread for low carb training! (In all it's forms, whether trying to achieve ketosis, eating paleo, or just not eating grains and potatoes and their processed derivatives).

Bambino - thanks for the compliment re my race time! I was pretty pleased and I raised money for my friends charity so all good. I definitely felt that the consistency of running the full distance without stopping was exhausting and it was a flat route. Perhaps you are right I just need to get used to he distance. However this has also turned out to be a really useful discussion too!

Suzannewithaplan - you are so right!

[pootlebug]

Suzanne - I had basically crept up to a fairly high level of carbs. Not endless bowls of pasta, but way too much chocolate etc. Lots of fruit. Starchier veg including potatoes. The odd risotto. The odd cheat piece of cake or pain au chocolate. Not as many carbs as many people eat every day, but certainly enough to stop it being 'low carb' eating by any stretch of the imagination. I wanted to kick start a change because I could see my old compulsive-eating-crap habits coming back in a big way.

[pootlebug]

actiongirl - I am also struggling with giving up dairy. At the moment I'm still eating it (plan was to get used to low carb, then jack in the dairy, so as not to have too much to do at once). I am trying to cut down gradually rather than stop completely right now.

[TalkinPeace]

most western females carry at least 10,000 calories in reserve across the back of their hips (its called 3lb of fat)

the food in your stomach will not power your muscles until its been digested so eating before working out is not really worthwhile

exercising fasted is great for burning off visceral fat

[Sleepwhenidie]

That may be true for people that are well adapted to fat burning Talkin but not so much for those whose bodies tend more towards looking for glucose as energy. The 'truth' is probably very personal and is evidenced in how an individual feels surely? Some people will do better low carbing consistently, others on moderate carbs and of course there are carbs and carbs , it doesn't have to mean mounds of bread and pasta. Like pp's have said, the best way is probably to experiment and listen to your own body and work with that. I feel fine doing a cardio heavy session such as kickboxing without breakfast, but definitely struggle with weight training if I don't eat breakfast for example..,

[actiongirl1978]

Talkinpeace - so it was basically the distance that knackered me, not lack of food!

That kind of reinforces how I have always felt about it and I do like the mental image of chipping away at the fat across my hips everytime I exercise empty...

[TalkinPeace]

sleep
I'm making no comment on people's food choices
just pointing out that food in your stomach is not able to provide energy as it has not been digested
and only very lean people do not have a "pinch an inch" of reserves to call on if really needed

OP
yeah, your muscles got over tired - but next time they will be stronger

[actiongirl1978]

Thanks talkinpeace, will bear that in mind when I train tomorrow.