Pro-Leavers - please help

[CeciledeVolanges]

Good morning.
I am following a lot of conversations and events about the referendum and there are a lot of assertions about "what the referendum was about" and "why people voted" and "what people want."
I just wanted to ask, neutrally, if you believe that we should leave the EU what good things do you want to happen or believe will happen when we do?
I can't account for anyone else, but I have seen some really nasty referendum threads and I often get upset about it myself, so I want to say I will not attack or even argue with anyone, I'm just interested to hear the wishes and opinions of people who want positively to leave. It is such an emotive issue - not least to me - and maybe there are some views we haven't heard yet.
Thanks if you do answer! And thanks for reading.

[IamWendy]

I read a quote on another forum the other day that sums up my feelings on the matter. "Britain will give any man a chance, except a British man".

[CeciledeVolanges]

Thanks for taking the time to reply.

[IVotedOut]

I honestly believe it is better for our country to govern itself. To me it's about autonomy and independence. I want it in my personal life and so of course I want it reflected in the country I was born and live in.

There are many, many reasons people gave that have been supported and then refuted, so I agree it can be hard to make a fully informed choice. I say that for both sides of the argument. But for me it is about things like Europe influencing certain things negatively, ranging from topics such as fishing and farming, to the wattage our home appliances are allowed to have now.

For me, it wasn't actually about immigration. It was about being an independent country. Though having said that, it makes sense that if we allow everyone in we will run out of room eventually, so I suppose we aught to have some sort of rules in place to control that.

Of course it's not the only thing that sawyer me, but I think if someone like Winston Churchill said we should do everything to stay independent from Europe, then we'd do well to listen. He had a lot of good things to say and didn't say things like that lightly.

I am well aware that nothing stays the same forever, and a UK without being in the EU will not be the same as the UK we had before we joined; but equally the UK would not have stayed the same if we had continued jn the EU, and it's like some people are trying to hang onto the what they know for false security.

I am seriously disappointed that you have certain people jumping on the leave bandwagon, seizing the opportunity to exercise their racist hatred. However I also believe there will be racist haters among the remainders too. Just as there will be people like me who respect and welcome races different to my own. I honestly believe there is one race and that is the Human race, which is why immigration didn't feature in my vote.

[CeciledeVolanges]

Thanks, IVoted, it was good to read your reasoning and thanks for setting it out like that.

[isittheholidaysyet]

I honestly believe it is better for our country to govern itself.

This

I've no problem with immigrants of any nation colour or creed, though it might be an idea to control it so that we can plan how many hospitals/schools/doctors/houses we need. It totally wasn't about immigration for me.

It was always about the people on this island being able to control what happens to the people on this island.
I'm from the UK, I'm English, I want to stay this way. I've been worried all my life about being part of a 'united states of Europe'.
I was born in the late 70s, and I remember questioning MEPs about this at school and being absolutely shocked that they had no concept that this was where it could all be heading. I was equally shocked that just after the Brexit vote, the remainers were so shocked and surprised that a euro-army was being proposed. (Was it really such a surprise for them?)

I don't like many of our governments, but if our people want to, we can vote them out.

So my out vote was based on a long held belief that we would be better out of Europe. This was the first real chance I had had to say that.

[CeciledeVolanges]

I see, thanks, Isit.

[IVotedOut]

Op, I suspect that many, many leavers feel like we do. Only it's the old adage "those who shout loudest get heard". It's where the problem minority control the spotlight, spoiling the reputation of the rest. Plus it sells newspapers.

[CeciledeVolanges]

That's why I started a thread. So often these discussions end up disintegrating into shouting matches, catch phrases, distortions of the truth or oversimplification (I think the media are particularly culpable in this respect). I'm grateful that people are still able to express their views and reasons. Nobody is listening to each other any more and whether it is the minority or majority forcing their views on the other side, until there is some sort of listening and compromise I think it will keep being like this. Obviously this thread will change nothing on a grand scale, but personally it feels terrifying to me that the majority is assumed to be this mass of undifferentiated opinion and, for example, the government is using that to justify policies which might not actually be reflected in the actual views of the majority. I hope this makes sense!

[ThroughThickAndThin01]

Mainly economic reasons for me. The EU has become too unwieldy and the separate countries are all becoming more and and more entwined. I don't believe it is sustainable. I think the whole thing will financially implode. And as one of the wealthier countries we'd end up subsidising everyone else, particularly the struggling southern countries. And we'd be pulled down with them.

i do think there will be a massive global recession anyway sooner rather than later, which no country will escape. With independence we may well do better at weathering it.

Immigration was secondary to me.

I steer well clear of the topic usually, very aggressive remain posters demanding anyone who voted leave justify any word they say, and spell out the brexit plan. Funnily enough, we aren't politicians.

[GettinTrimmer]

I have a few friends who voted leave, I voted remain, but refuse to fall out with any of them.

One friend says she is a separatist, and believes that there are trade opportunities with other parts of the globe, and had a particular experience in mind when voting - she knew of a company that relocated in an EU country and people lost their jobs. She was married to a Glaswegian, and mentions the Scots want to separate from the UK. Also Irish background, believes in a united Ireland.

Another friend said she is worried about the possibility of an EU Army. She thinks we are a powerful little country and can go it alone.

A work colleague was very pleased day after the vote 'we've got our country back' so it's about sovereignty for her.

Also, two further friends voted on immigration. One mentioned GPs appointments being difficult to get, and another lack of housing.

[CeciledeVolanges]

Thanks for that. It seems from the responses so far that people voted for a huge variety of reasons and with concerns that just aren't being reflected in politics. Personally I feel that it is hugely problematic that the EU referendum was the only opportunity for any of this to be expressed and heard, and even then the choice was between two words which don't capture any of these nuances and which the government can choose to represent as they wish.
Does anyone have any thoughts on that?
I am really grateful for all the replies so far, please keep them coming. Thanks everyone for spending time replying.

[ThroughThickAndThin01]

I totally agree with you OP. My thoughts, in no particular order.

Cameron shouldnt have put the vote to the general public, at the time that he did. It was too soon and left both sides just desperately mud slinging to make more impact. It was desperately mistimed. He did so to ward off the advance of public interest in UKIP and to appease Tory EU sceptics in his party. If he did put it to the public then it should have been in an advisory context in the first instant, or with a bigger margin written in. Or after several years of debating. I'm a leaver, would never have voted remain although I was thinking about abstaining, but the narrow margin for something so enormous niggles me even though I want independence.

All the political parties leading up to the referendum was shocking. Boris clearly is a remainer, but became a leaver for his own purposes. Corbyn is clearer a leaver, and did sod all for remain. May is remain but seems has always been a leaver. UKIP are a joke but taken so very seriously. Cameron was unconcerned because he thought remain would win, put no effort into a proper political programme as to what woukd happen in the exceptionally unlikely event we would leave.(!), either in Government or put to the public. He underestimated the feelings of the public in the Scottish referendum and replicated the mistake in the EU referendum.

Remains campaign was run on scaremongering, and spent - still does - an over invested obsession in what was written on the side of a bus. Leave campaign has been unsubstantial.

It's been a total farce.

[CeciledeVolanges]

Thanks, - I agree with you. One of the most upsetting things is that people have strong views on either side, backed up by evidence and deeply held beliefs on either side, and it was too important to be turned into what it became which was some sort of personality contest. It is damaging to turn it into a competition which "one side won" because it isn't a binary issue and so many people have actually lost their chance to have a say.

[roarfeckingroar]

I voted to leave for similar reasons as isit - self governance, the EU's messy economy but also because I worked there and have witnessed first hand the waste, the gravy train, the opulence and the arrogance.

[CeciledeVolanges]

Roar I would be really interested to hear more about your first hand experiences.

[DarlingBuddyOfMay]

But Cecile, we are where we are. A choice was asked if us and we made it and now we have to carry it through. Not agreeing with what was said at the Tory Cinference is no reason to try and block a democratic outcome on a nationwide, cross party matter. We an deal with Tory rhetoric seperately. And just for info my reasons were closest to thickandthin's, based on economics and the belief that UK were able to stand separate from the - I believe - unsustainable EU.

[MaliceInWonderland78]

Cecil You say people voted for a variety of reasons (and they did) but I do believe that for many on here (myself included) sovereignty was a huge issue. Cameron tried to extract concessions and returned with 'thin gruel'

In fairness, I don't think that he could have come back with anything that would have satisfied some of us, but to suggest that for us the issue was more nuanced probably isn't correct.

You're quite correct, it's not a binary issue, but the question and the response, necessarily was. In the end, I'm not sure it was (for many) based on facts, but rather something more visceral.

[smallfox2002]

I think the same reasons for leaving, all of them spurious have been outlined already.

Self governance? When brexit isn't going to be debated by parliament and Henry VIII clauses will be used to change legislation?

EU army?

Choices about electrical goods? You know people won't manufacture these just for the UK market so we'll end up with the same stuff following the same regulation right?

Farming and fishing? You know the UK deals with the CAP and CAF policies and how they are implemented here? Who gets the subsidies and the quotas etc?

Doctors appointments more difficult to get? Well that will be due to shortage of Doctors not EU immigrants, as they are less likely to use Doctors due to the healthy migrant effect.

I'm really sorry but you just come here, in your little echo chamber to tell each other you made the correct decision based on good reasons.

They weren't valid reasons, you didn't make the right decision, you are responsible for what comes next, you can't get out of it.

[DarlingBuddyOfMay]

(Yawn) and along comes small.....

[DarlingBuddyOfMay]

The biggest echo chambers are in some posters heads

[smallfox2002]

Yawn, nice ad hominem attack there, but not what which defends your position, shows your inability to do so with well thought out reasons.

Tell me more about democracy and sovereignty and how the current situation is an example of that.

This is nothing but an echo chamber, with each of you telling each other that you were right.

[ThroughThickAndThin01]

Now smallfox has come along to sneer at all those opposing her (his?) view. There's a surprise. I'm out.

I don't regret my vote to leave, in fact I feel more strongly about it since the referendum.

Good idea OP, sorry I've been driven away. Again.

[smallfox2002]

Oh well done through thick and thin, proves my point, not up for debate just confirmation bias.

[CeciledeVolanges]

Thanks for your reply, DarlingBuddy and I absolutely agree that the result of the vote should be addressed democratically.

[CeciledeVolanges]

Thanks for the input, Malice