Pro EU event

[Brumella]

If you are feeling like me that what is happening to our country is just wrong and you cannot sit at home quietly and let it happen, please consider coming to Birmingham on Sunday! www.euinbrum.org/nationalrallysun2oct
You will be amongst friends - come and celebrate all the EU has done for us and show the Tories (who will also be in Birmingham on their conference that we haven't gone away).
Please come; we could all find something else to do with our time, but help make our voice (of reason) heard!

[IamWendy]

Nah. I like democracy.

[RedToothBrush]

I like accountability as part of a democratic process, that is not restricted to, nor exclusively a vote on a single issue or at a General Election.

Democracy happens daily not just on days that the polls are open.

See I like democracy too.

[Nightofthetentacle]

I like democracy too, and if I was in the area I would be there.

It might be worth a separate "what does democracy mean to you" thread cos I am pretty sure it is an ongoing process and discussion and not just a on off vote every series sorry got confused with Britain's Got Talent

[Nightofthetentacle]

"one off" obvs. not as good at spelling as having opinions.

[SunnyInMay]

Yes why not keep rerunning the referendum until you get the result you want?

Would you appreciate people calling for the same if the vote had gone the other way? I'm guessing not.

[mollie123]

[IamWendy]

It's too late though. No amount of pro EU guff is going to wind back the clock, we voted to leave.... We are going.

[Nightofthetentacle]

I would be delighted for critical voices to have been heard, loudly, if the referendum result had gone the other way - cos it is democracy and I for one would not expect that every Leave voter would just have "shut up" about their concerns for the rest of time just cos on this occasion Remain won. cf also ongoing public and political debate and action post Scottish Indyref and the 1975 EC Ref.

Might be worth reposting Dominic Raab (of vote Leave)'s pre-referendum view on what should happen if Remain won:

“I think the public would expect us to accept their verdict, but of course things change. I’m just realistic and I’d like people to acknowledge that whenever the Tory leadership election is, I think it’s obvious that it will be part of that."

“If the verdict is to stay in the EU, and it’s close, I think those that do want to revisit it should just pause for a few years and shelve it.”

Thanks Mollie - I'll have that with a .

But seriously Sunny, why would you guess not? Why would you (if you voted Leave and Remain won) not want to continue to discuss the issues that you see with EU membership? And why would you expect Remain voters to not want to listen? I rly don't get it.

[Nightofthetentacle]

IamWendy too late for what though? Where are we going?

I don't want to guess which way you all voted - but I have seen this defeatism (and it is that) from RL Leave voters, and it's a "you don't engage with debate once a vote has happened, don't expect your voice to be heard, leave it to the politicians and let them get on with it, keep your opinions to yourself if they differ from the majority"

It's just so disengaged it actually worries me: that politicians could do anything and people would just muddle on and hope for the best.

[Peregrina]

I think you are confusing democracy with dictatorship, IamWendy.

[Brumella]

Thank you all for your comments. I have many other things that I could be doing with my Sunday afternoon, but would like to share my reasons for attending a pro-EU event.

Since the referendum vote we have heard from a loud minority (and it is a minority) of Leave voters and some of the media expressions of very anti-eu sentiment ("Up yours EU", "Evil Dictatorship" "Nazis"). Our European neighbours are hearing this and our reputation is badly bruised. I am going to have MY say tomorrow. I am going to say that I appreciate all the EU has done for me, my family and my region and that the loud abusive minority do not represent me. I am going to celebrate what the EU has done for the UK.

On 23 June a decision was made which will take away my rights as an EU citizen and those of my children, one of whom has very concrete European career plans which are now in jeopardy. That decision threatens to break up the UK. That decision is going to bring years of hardship (that is something politicians actually seem to agree on and they don't seem to be lying). It is a decision that was advised against by every expert or MP that I have respect for. It is estimated it will cost the country £70 billion a year. It has unleashed a terrifying wave of xenophobia. It has shaken the lives of two close European friends who have lived here 25 years, pay taxes, give so much to their community yet feel unwelcome. I could have said "OK", but I cannot.

Had that decision been the result of a fair, fact-based campaign and the result of a well-informed vote, I might have said "OK". It was not. The NHS whopper remains on the leave campaign FB page as a haunting reminder. The media played a criminal role in leading voters off the cliff. We saw what in many other professions would be labelled gross professional misconduct from some M.Ps, most of whom are still running the country. I cannot say "OK".

If Leave voters want to organise a "Get us out quick" march, as long as it is peaceful and legal, I can honestly say I have no problem with it at all. At a March for Europe event in September, a Leave voter approached me and asked in amazement why I wanted to remain. We both explained our point of view, neither of us changed our minds, but we were polite and friendly. I value such debate.

Democracy means the people having their say in shaping a country's future. If the whole Brexit process could have been done and dusted on 24 June, there would have been little time for me to have my say. Most of us don't know if we are going to have a soft, hard or scrambled Brexit. I am allowed to have my say. I will continue making a noise, legally and peacefully to campaign for the closest possible relations between the UK and the EU. I will campaign for the continuation of Erasmus funding, medical research funding, university collaboration. Who knows, they may even benefit some of you who are so against pro-EU events one day.

[Peregrina]

Well said, Brumella.

I agree, if the Leave campaign had put forward honest arguments which stood up to debate, I too might have said OK. But it was based on the most blatant of lies, which Leave voters do not like being reminded of.

[twofingerstoGideon]

Yes, well said, Brumella. I hope the sun shines on your march!

[Brumella]

Thanks all .

[twofingerstoGideon]

How did it go?

[IamWendy]

Apparently Eddie Izzard got his silly beret taken. So, a great result there then!

[Peregrina]

Wasn't that an earlier demo, a month ago?

[chilipepper20]

Had that decision been the result of a fair, fact-based campaign and the result of a well-informed vote, I might have said "OK". It was not. The NHS whopper remains on the leave campaign FB page as a haunting reminder.

I don't understand this comment. the leave campaign wasn't the incumbent government, so they actually have absolutely no control of what the NHS funding is.

Also, the misinformation wasn't entirely one-sided. didn't Cameron claim WW3 would ensue if brexit happened?

[Peregrina]

so they actually have absolutely no control of what the NHS funding is.

But some of the ardent Leave campaigners are now in Government - namely Boris Johnson and Andrea Leasdom, so although the 'promises' they made beforehand were so much hot air, they are now in a position of influence. Johnson opens his mouth to talk nonsense, and Leasdom has gone extremely quiet.

Brexit hasn't happened yet, but who can predict what will happen? Cameron said that he would stay on and invoke Art 50 the next day. 3 months on, we are fighting a by - election because he's cleared off, so how much credence do you give to what he said?

[Brumella]

It was a fantastic noisy sunny event thank you, Twofingers ; right in front of where all the Tories were announcing their plans for a hard Brexit :(.No Eddie Izzard today, but some wonderful people from as far away as Paris. It got coverage in the Bham news and the Guardian!

Chili Pepper I don't think anyone can really argue the Leave campaign NHS promise was misleading, even Farage agrees! And you are absolutely right; the misinformation was on both sides. So we are about the make the most humungous leap into the dark after dishonest campaigning and much scaremongering. IMO, every British citizen is a victim. Some are currently more worried about Bake Off and the X Factor, others have pressing health, money or emotional worries so Brexit is not high up on their list of concerns.

If anyone reading this, either Leave, Remain or non-voter looks at where we are at with Brexit and is not happy, I urge you to email your M.P. It may not make a difference, but we can be sure that ignoring it will achieve nothing and Brexit just go down in history as one of the most disastrous ever decisions made because "the people have spoken".

[chilipepper20]

so how much credence do you give to what he said?

none. But why is remain not criticised for misinformation and hysteria?

I don't think anyone can really argue the Leave campaign NHS promise was misleading, even Farage agrees!

I took that ad for exactly what it was: bluster, stretched figures, and musings about what we should do with the extra money. it was misleading, but how anyone took it to mean that we will literally use all the money we put into the EU (without even accounting for rebate) and dump it all into the NHS (which is likely not even the best use for the money) is beyond me. It was a bus ad: not a budget or a manifesto.

Brexit just go down in history as one of the most disastrous ever decisions made because "the people have spoken".

I'd class that is exaggeration and misinformation.

[Brumella]

The Remain campaign didn't win, Chili, so people are less likely to be moaning about it. IMO, Remain's biggest failing was not to let people know of all the positives of EU membership.

Sadly not all the electorate are as astute as you are and some voted Leave because they thought the NHS would benefit.

I'd class that is exaggeration and misinformation. I really hope you are right there Chili. I cannot find one aspect of Brexit to be positive about, but feel free to enlighten me.

[twofingerstoGideon]

chili it was misleading, but how anyone took it to mean that we will literally use all the money we put into the EU (without even accounting for rebate) and dump it all into the NHS (which is likely not even the best use for the money) is beyond me.

and yet people did vote leave because they believed it

[chilipepper20]

I really hope you are right there Chili. I cannot find one aspect of Brexit to be positive about, but feel free to enlighten me.

not one? We'd be free to negotiate our own trade and immigration agreements with other nations.

I don't think it will all be rosy, not by any stretch, but it doesn't take a lot of imagination to find some good things.

[Peregrina]

More employment for lawyers. More employment for customs officials. This won't help many unemployed car workers, but it would be a start.