Does what make me most sad about Brexit make other leave voters sad?(51 Posts)
The saddest thing for me of all about Brexit (and there are soooo many) is that it's the country I was born in and have loved and been proud of all my life isn't the one I knew after all. I recently re-watched the London 2012 opening ceremony and it made me super sad because I remember being so proud of my country as I saw it - multicultural, diverse, open, tolerant, celebrating of knowledge, achievement, working together, ensuring fairness prevailed.
And since I've found out it isn't. There is more racism and more xenophobia than I realised. I found out so many of my countrymen have been simmering with so much anger, that what I thought was a bit of nostalgia is actually a real desire to live in the rose-tinted past, that we are sick of experts, that we so hate being part of the EU we are fine to screw over our the youth who overwhelming wanted to remain scientists (ditto) Scotland (ditto) Northern Ireland (ditto) etc. That we are more little England than Great Britain.
The huge rise in hate crime post Brexit has not personally impacted me but has impacted people I know. People who do and don't come from the EU have been told to 'go back to where you come from' and when speaking a foreign language told to speak English.
This German woman who rang into LBC radio show literally made me cry and feel heartbroken: http://www.lbc.co.uk/im-so-scared-now-german-woman-hit-by-xenophobia-calls-james-in-tears-132971
I know not many leave voters will have directly anticipated all these things happening but I want to know how they feel about them themselves? Other online trolls/posters I've asked just deny the rise in hate crime or say you can't believe everything you hear and say it's not happening. It is happening.
Equally if you've experienced something yourself as either an immigrant or is hate crime related I'd really like to hear about it.
I agree with that. Also the way people are now quite happy to deny free speech to those who disagree with them. Remoaners, you lost, suck it up and so on. As Ian Hislop said, when you lose an election it doesn't mean that you are expected to shut up, but in this case, we are.
multicultural, diverse, open, tolerant, celebrating of knowledge, achievement, working together, ensuring fairness prevailed.
How is this achieved by clubbing together with white western rich nations and blocking access and trade to the rest of the world. Much of African poverty and disease is caused by EU policies. See Golden Rice and this quote from Oxfam. British households pay an extra £832 a year in grocery bills due to the huge EU subsidy system that is also depriving tens of thousands of African farmers of their livelihoods
CarolDecker there are many things wrong with the EU. I don't think any remain voter thinks it's perfect.
However we are, with France & Germany, one of the most influential voices within the EU. We directly impact and shape the rules and regulations of 28 countries and its 500 million inhabitants. I want to keep that influence so that policies like the ones you linked are changed and I believe that is easier achieved with our seat at the table and believe the impact of that is greater than if we were to do it as one country. I don't believe changing things is done best by leaving the table any more than I flounce out of an argument with my OH threatening divorce. I believe in sitting down and working things out together.
However as is typical of most Brexit debates I have had with other Brexiteers you have decided to completely change the goalposts of my original post and turned a social question about the rise in hate crime and the change to how I feel about my country into one about EU policies that harm Africa.
Your post implied that remainers are multicultural, diverse, open, tolerant, celebrating of knowledge, achievement, working together, ensuring fairness prevailed ^whilst Leavers are ^countrymen have been simmering with so much anger, that what I thought was a bit of nostalgia is actually a real desire to live in the rose-tinted past, that we are sick of experts, that we so hate being part of the EU we are fine to screw over our the youth who overwhelming wanted to remain scientists (ditto) Scotland (ditto) Northern Ireland (ditto) etc. That we are more little England than Great Britain.
I was pointing out that you were talking bollocks and it is remainers who are the xenophobic hate filled group, whilst Leavers want to embrace the world, rather than just a rich white part of it.
I'm a remainer, Carol, and like Tidy I am sad we are leaving and shocked and horrified at the rise in hate crimes and also the way that some Leave voters seem to think there is now a mandate for this kind of vile behaviour. However, I am not a hate-filled xenophobe, and neither are any of the Remainers I personally know. Why are you seeking to lump us all in together as some group that you have judged negatively? That would appear to be a hate-filled act to me.
I think most Leave voters think that the UK had too little influence in Europe TooTiredToTidy.
If those policies were going to be changed to help countries like the African nations they would have changed already. In fact if anyone really cared they would have written the policies differently in the first place but their priority wasn't the poorer nations of the world it was the richer nations within Europe.
People were desperately unhappy with how their lives were going and they felt their country was being dragged into something they had little or no control over so when given what they saw as a lifeline by an offer of a referendum they took it.
They may be right, it may well be a brilliant start for the UK to embrace the rest of the world and become more vibrant and more diverse. The world doesn't start and end in Europe there's a whole other three quarters of the planet that the UK can now freely create trade deals with and experience. Things will change but it doesn't mean things will be worse, there's just as much a chance things will improve and become better.
Many non EU migrants have to jump stupid hoops to live in the uk. Our policies towards non EU migrants are cruel. Yet we allow EU migrants to come and claim benefits. We allow convicted EU criminals to come the UK and have no way of deporting them.
I don't have a problem with EU migrants who work. I have a problem that the EU has become incredibly bureaucratic and unwieldy. Issues like freedom of movement are not even up for discussion.
Flumpty Why are you seeking to lump us all in together as some group that you have judged negatively?
I would just point you to the OP, most of the posts on this subject by remainers, your post and just say:
whilst Leavers want to embrace the world
I acknowledge that you have a global outlook, but all Leavers? l must have imagined many things in the past few weeks, including a fair number of posters in here.
Interesting article about the impact of agricultural subsidies on farming in the developing world:
People who voted leave are a mixed bunch who want different things. Leave voters include the well off elderly in the Home Counties and the disaffected poor in the Welsh Valleys. They may have completely different moviations for voting leave. One might be racist and the other might more decisions made at a national level. Maybe both people might feel that they lack a say in the running of their country.
A democracy is will always have a range of opinions. A free country allows people to hold slightly unsavoury opinions provided they don't behave in a racist/ violent way. It is not illegal to think that immigration is too high or campaign against a mosque being built. It is illegal to post letters through the doors of poles/ refugees telling them to go home. It is illegal to put a pig's head on the door step of a mosque.
If we do not acknowledge politically incorrect opinions and have discourse with those who hold unpleasant opinions then opinions will fester into something nastier.
Not wanting to throw the thread off course, ever since this happened (or maybe just coincidence), I've found myself becoming more interested in the (very) long view - looking backwards - at how civilisations rise, fall and change. I'm in the middle of a fantastic book, out at the moment - Peter Frankopan's "The Silk Roads - a New History of the World" - which stretches right back to about 500 or so years BC. (I've also heard him speak - really engaging - clever and funny).
Anyway I sense that perhaps this vote is one of those tipping points in the long-term history of the UK (not in a good way). Too many people seem to assume that we will necessarily, always, be a balanced and (at least relatively speaking) prosperous nation.
Too many people seem to assume that we will necessarily, always, be a balanced and (at least relatively speaking) prosperous nation.
I have thought so myself. Where now are the Ottoman, Austro-Hungarian and Spanish Empires? Let alone the Roman Empire.
Thanks for the book recommendation - sounds good.
whilst Leavers want to embrace the world
Fucking hell that's a delusional comment if ever I saw one!
There are some Leavers that seem to believe this.
But as a blanket statement about Leavers?
Pull the other one!
If that really was an aim of the Leave campaign, it needed to be spelt out and firmly stated in no uncertain terms before Mr Farage wheeled his big poster out, and then refuted absolutely without any room for doubt.
This would have involved a clear definition and plan FOR what Leave entailed. Not merely a vague idea open to interpretation of want Leave meant.
I must have missed that.
I doubt very much that us leaving the EU will make a jot of difference to farmers in the developing world. As for 'embracing the world' all the leave voters I know have the polar opposite view, however, good for you for having that sentiment.
I agree with you TooToredToTidy.
I am also agog at this it is remainers who are the xenophobic hate filled group, whilst Leavers want to embrace the world, rather than just a rich white part of it
Not sure that fits with what I have seen or heard this year
"It is remainers who are the xenophobic hate filled group, whilst Leavers want to embrace the world, rather than just a rich white part of it"
So you think the chaps who stood in Newcastle who wanted immediate repatriation of EU immigrants the day after the vote would be happy for others to come in from outside?
This argument is naught but an attempt to cover a more nefarious opinion with an attempt at reason.
The stuff about the CAP policies hurting third world farmers ignores the fact that significant reform to CAP and how it is distributed has been agreed and will be implemented by 2020, further to that export subsidies are set to be ended by 2018.
"Yet we allow EU migrants to come and claim benefits"
Non EU migrants claim benefits too, in fact they are more likely to claim them than EU migrants. EU immigrants are under represented on the unemployment figures too!
The appeals to emotion regarding a childs murder is incorrect, we can stop people convicted of crimes from coming in, and we can deport them, it.
thanks for the posts guys who voted leave but you've not really answered my question, which was doesn't it make you sad that there has been a rise in hate crime, that it's now seemingly ok to be openly racist, to tell people to go home or speak english? is this the Great Britain that you're proud of? I'm not looking for more reasons why people voted leave, there are monster threads on here for that, I am interested in discussing the non-economic consequences of the brexit vote
caroldecker your view of leave voters being the ones who are not xenophobic is really mistaken. Did you listen to the German woman in m original post? Please go on Twitter or Facebook and join some pro-brexit groups. Here are some posts to get you started:
By default Remain voters are not xenophobic, we believe ourselves to be better off as part of the EU and welcome different cultures, to me it's warped to suggest that people who have voted to lift the drawbridge up are the ones who are want to 'embrace the world'.
as for the 'white part' - brexit was led by Eton/Oxford educated Boris Johnson, Privately educated ordinary man who sent all his kids to private school Nigel Farage and former Murdoch and still good mates with Michael Gove - what do you think you have voted for, genuinely?
Sorry, Carol, I am genuinely perplexed as to how my post is 'hate-filled' or 'xenophobic'. Would you care to highlight what I have said that demonstrates that, please? I really can't see it myself, and it certainly wasn't my intention. I would hate to be coming across like that inadvertently. Thanks.
Flumpty I did not say you specifically were hate filled or xenophobic. I said you objected to being put in a group whilst putting leavers in a group.
I meant remainers are prepared to see rich white EU citizens as more worthy of UK citizenship and UK taxpayers money than Africans or those from the rest of the world. This is a fact of belonging to the EU, white westerners come first.
I believe this is xenophobic and racist.
remainers are prepared to see rich white EU citizens as more worthy of UK citizenship and UK taxpayers money than Africans or those from the rest of the world. This is a fact of belonging to the EU, white westerners come first.
I believe this is xenophobic and racist.
It's no more racist than English, Scottish, Welsh and Northern Irish people all having British passports.
EU citizens as more worthy of UK citizenship and UK taxpayers money than Africans or those from the rest of the world
It's not about people from the EU being "worthy" of UK citizenship (many people never claim it in any case as until now there has been no need to), it's about a reciprocal agreement which allows EU citizens to live and work here and us to live and work in their countries.
Other EU countries are our immediate neighbours - it is the geopolitical "bloc" which the UK is part of.
As for saying that EU citizens are more worthy of UK taxpayers' money - they are net contributors to the UK coffers.
Of all the absurdities I have heard from the leave campaign I think the assertion that they are standing up for the rights of non UK nationals from the rest of the world in the face of the xenophobic EU is the oddest claim I have read. As a UK citizen based in another EU state who suddenly has no idea where I will fit in down the line in my child's country I have pored over these boards and others since the vote. I have rarely joined in as others are saying what I think far more eloquently than me but have been genuinely trying to find something from the leave side that makes me think ok fair enough, I get what you voted for. In all the thousands of posts I have read I am still waiting to find something that can't be immediately rebuffed as based in lies or being non-workable. I have read nothing that has made me think that people were partially motivated in their decision by wanting to do the right thing for the developing world. Everything I have read and heard here and elsewhere suggests that pulling up the drawbridge was a major motivation for leave. And yes OP I get your feeling of sadness. The only thing I can relate to on the Leave side is the concept of rose tinted nostalgia. Living abroad, albeit it happily, in my experience, often increases this feeling and I have on occasions been known to read Bill Bryson's Notes from a Small Island with a self indulgent lump in my throat and happily selective memories of the summer of '76 running through my mind . But my rose tinted nostalgia and that of a large proportion of the population of the country I love has suddenly been shown to me to be very, very different things. And that instead of nostalgia being recognized for what it is that it is now fueling policy and constitutional change. Which isn't just sad but is also very disturbing.
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