The blame for Brexit. Its not those who voted to leave.

(125 Posts)
RBeer Thu 11-Aug-16 12:13:26

Something has been puzzling me for a while and i have yet to read it anywhere.

I know people who voted for the referendum by voting Tory , voted to remain and yet blame the brexit on those who voted leave.

Surely the blame should be squared directed at those who elected that King of Spades, Cameron, into government.

You cant blame the child for shooting himself in the face if it was you who handed him the gun.

putthecatout Thu 11-Aug-16 12:18:31

They're not children though, are they?
Many people are to blame. Cameron for taking such an insane and selfish risk. Boris, Farage, etc for lying and cheating to win votes. Corbyn etc for not doing what they could to persuade Labour voters to vote Remain. The owners of the lying right wing press. The idiots who fell for the lies and propaganda. And those who knew what they were doing when they voted, and basically shafted the majority of the population.
Tory voters bear some responsibility - I doubt many of them expected a Leave victory when they voted The Tories in though.

RBeer Thu 11-Aug-16 12:24:52

Yes you are right in all those to blame ( i am actually in the process of devising a gift set that will record the 'players' in this mess ).

But it all started with those who voted in Cameron as much as it may pain those who did.

The frozen waters of the Atlantic did not kill those who perished on the titanic.
It was the fateful decision not to have enough lifeboats that did.

ReallyTired Thu 11-Aug-16 12:54:24

Many of the remain voters got exactly what they deserved. The champagne socialists who live in London have never given a shit about poverty outside London. They have been happily buy goods and services that exploit low paid workers on zero hour contracts.

My family have benefits from lower costs of services because labour is cheaper. Other people who provide that labour have suffered as their wages have been depressed by an unlimited pool of unskilled labour.

Maybe those who voted leave would not have voted leave if their concerns had not been belittled. Decades of ignoring the ex mining and ship building regions have led to resentment. Maybe the EU has spent lots of money on fancy projects in deprived areas but the locals aren't able to see tangible benefits in pimping up the Blackpool sea front. No one gave those people any say in what the EU spent its budget on. The poor have seen all the negatives of freedom of movement without the positives.

Maybe many people still believe that Brexit is best for the country in the long term. Politicians are all a pack of liars. Those campaigning for remain had a very negative campaign and much of the general public saw through it.

I doubt the NHS will see extra money, but I also doubt that Brexit is economic armedegon. Brexit will have both negatives and positives.

SapphireStrange Thu 11-Aug-16 13:09:18

Really, I find that unfair. People who live in London are often people who did not START OFF living a nice life in London; many of us (me included) come from working-class backgrounds/homes where money was always tight.

And wages are not depressed by 'an unlimited pool of unskilled labour' as much as by employers who get away with paying shocking wages and not adhering to workers' rights (both of which are better safeguarded by EU law than by UK law alone); and by consumers, the majority of whom want and/or need cheap food and goods.

SapphireStrange Thu 11-Aug-16 13:11:36

But anyway, I too mostly blame Cameron. He only promised the referendum to save his skin from UKIP and because he couldn't control his own party. He could have made utterly clear that it was advisory. He could have not been so arrogant as to assume that Remain would win, and run a better campaign.

People like Farage simply saw the opportunity and piggybacked on it. People who voted Leave did so, IMO, for a complex mix of reasons including ill-founded ideas that immigration is bad and that we are ruled over by a sinister Brussels elite, both of which the Tory party have been harping on for decades.

I could cheerfully strangle Cameron.

Sooverthis Thu 11-Aug-16 13:26:44

You would kill someone for their political views and think really is unfair? Nice, that sort of mindless bigotry is why remain lost, a total inability to see any other point of view or to offer any compromise or even to allow any other opinion as valid.

SapphireStrange Thu 11-Aug-16 13:28:37

grin Soover. A turn of phrase, innit. But if you enjoy being professionally offended, knock yourself out.

Yours with hugs, Mindless Bigot

RBeer Thu 11-Aug-16 13:31:13

Thanks SapphireStrange but even to blame Cameron somewhat misses the point. He is only the elected representative of those who choose him. He i guess is the pigeon carrying the message.

The blame has to be recorded on those who voted for him.

shartsi Thu 11-Aug-16 13:32:17

I blame the EU itself. It should have been good enough to want to be remained in.

ReallyTired Thu 11-Aug-16 13:32:50

Neither labour nor the Tories have cared about working class people out side London. Or at least they feel that no one represents them. Jermany Corbyn did not campaign for a remain vote and prehaps some leave voters voted against Cameron as much as the EU.

Twenty years ago it was quite easy to get an unskilled job. Employers were forced to pay a living wage because of market forces. A plentiful supply of jobs meant tha employers lost employees if they treated them badly. Market forces now favour the employer.

ReallyTired Thu 11-Aug-16 13:35:37

Many working class Londoners have forgotten their roots. They don't give a damn about those they left behind. There is a serious disconnect between London and the rUk. A disportionate amount of wealth is in London and this is worse for the health of the U.K. than Brexit.

PlayingGrownUp Thu 11-Aug-16 13:36:11

I visited the midlands the day after the results and was amazed at the amount of roads built with EU funds.

MaliceInWonderland78 Thu 11-Aug-16 13:43:24

Really I think you've hit the nail on the head. I work in London during the week (my family live in rurally). Before we moved out of London (I still live here) I'd likely have voted remain.

Having now experienced life outside of the M25, I can see why many people weren't inclined to maintain the status quo. Those living in London and the South East just don't realise the extent to which the bubble in which they live distorts their view.

I cannot tell you how pleased I am that we've left (or are leaving) the EU. Even though it's quite likely I'll be financially worse off, I think we'll all be better of in the long run. I think too many people saw this as between right and left, or between the educated and uneducated. Actually, that wasn't it at all. It was an opportunity for those who haven't felt the benefits of EU integration to have their say. I for one am glad they've had it shame on those that are anti-democratic I'm even more pleased that they took the opportunity!

Onwards

RBeer Thu 11-Aug-16 13:43:54

So in essence the Tory Voters loaded the gun and the Labour voters pulled the trigger.

BoneyBackJefferson Thu 11-Aug-16 13:53:12

putthecatout

and basically shafted the majority of the population.

If this where true and the majority wanted to remain then the results would have reflected the fact.

Those that didn't vote can't really have been, or are, that bothered (exceptional circumstances aside).

ReallyTired Thu 11-Aug-16 14:21:19

"So in essence the Tory Voters loaded the gun and the Labour voters pulled the trigger."

I think that Brexit was one of those issues that transcends normal political party alliegences. There plenty of labour and Tory leave voters. The leave campaign would never have succeeded without cross party support.

Labour has lost all empathy with its traditional voters. The remain camp have utter contempt for 17 million people in the uk by labelling as stupid or ill educated or worst still suggesting that their opinion should be ignored,

RBeer Thu 11-Aug-16 14:33:59

@ReallyTired.

I am afraid I too have to agree with those who are of the opinion that it was a rather 'stupid' decision to vote to leave.

But, I am also of the opinion that the more educated who decided to pass that loaded gun to the child by voting in Cameron are even more 'stupid'.

smallfox2002 Thu 11-Aug-16 14:39:18

"It was an opportunity for those who haven't felt the benefits of EU integration to have their say"

Funny that those areas that receive the highest amounts of EU funding are ones that voted out then. What's going to happen when they don't get the funding for projects?

You might say that people in Blackpool didn't see the benefit in tarting up the Sea front, but the tourist industry probably did!

In my native North East many of the infrastructure improvements have been paid for by the EU as have many of the public services.

You leavers are funny, when you want the disenfrnachised to be the reason for the leave vote they are, when you don't want the disenfranchised to be the reason for the leave vote they aren't

The parts of the UK that voted out because they didn't think they benefited are going to be the ones that pay the highest price for their vote.

whatwouldrondo Thu 11-Aug-16 14:54:48

I completely understand, being like Sapphire a northerner who lives in London, and knowing plenty of other Londoners whose origins are in the north and west that there are large swathes of the country who feel left behind because of their unequal experience of austerity and with whom the government has not shared the benefits of a south east focused service based economy and immigration.

However this analysis from Zoe Williams highlights that the whole North / south, educated /uneducated binary explanation isn't accurate. It was actually as much as anywhere the South outside London that delivered the Remain vote, prosperous Home County communities that are the Tory heartlands and also have little experience of either austerity or immigration but put simplistically read it in the Telegraph and Daily Mail. www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2016/aug/07/north-poor-brexit-myths.

This is not a matter of democracy, it is a matter of good government. The democratic bit is when we elect representatives to govern on our behalf and hold them accountable in elections. In between we equip them with the apparatus of a Civil Service and parliamentary process that provides the expertise and information to make the complicated decisions of government on our behalf. David Cameron evaded his responsibility under that model of government simply to silence a political threat to himself and has left the country in the self evident mess that is a Brexit nobody understands the full implications of or has a plan for. A good Prime Minister does not risk leaving their country in such a mess. Add in unprincipled politicians and media that seek to promote their own interests and power and we are where we are.

MaliceInWonderland78 Thu 11-Aug-16 15:07:06

smallfox Just so you're aware, the EU doesn't have its own money. in much the same way that the UK Government doesn't have its own money.

Yes some money was spent in those places, but those places didn't participate fully in the benefits of EU membership - but were still net contributors.

RBeer Thu 11-Aug-16 15:07:55

@whatwouldrondo .

But Cameron posted notice of his intention to call a referendum and the general public returned him to government .

So is it not Cameron who evaded his responsibility but those of the public who evaded theirs and their descendants responsibility by their Tory vote ?

RBeer Thu 11-Aug-16 15:09:50

..wasnt Cameron, just like a hangover, a self-inflicted wound ?

Lindy2 Thu 11-Aug-16 15:15:55

The EU seems unable to evolve and take into account the changing needs and wishes of its members. I think that is where I lay any blame.
Also, where do people think EU funds come from? It comes from the taxpayers of the 5 countries that pay in more than they take out. As the second biggest contributor those funds are still there in the form of our taxes, but now we should actually get to keep them and have control of what they are spent on.

smallfox2002 Thu 11-Aug-16 15:28:06

Malice,

Do you think areas that complain about being underfunded by the British government are going to get the same amount of funding from Westminster as they did from Brussels? As a rule these areas also tend to be in significant net tax deficit, so they already get more funding from the exchequer than they pay in.

The EU has given the UK many exemptions etc, but it wasn't good enough for the out brigade, who essentially want all the benefits without sharing any of the costs.

Oh btw a -0.5% change in GDP wipes the entire net contribution out of the tax take. "We will have control" of our own money yes, but it doesn't mean that these deprived areas are going to see the same funding as they have got, especially not with a Tory government.

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