To feel really positive about leaving the EU... Continued

(192 Posts)
Valentine2 Wed 20-Jul-16 14:33:26

Hi all. I learnt excellent things on the last one. Please keep them coming. Xxx

whatwouldrondo Wed 20-Jul-16 14:48:36

Well Valentine I just need to fix my varifocals and crank up my wind up thingammyjibet to fire up t'internet. I'll be with you shortly wink

In all seriousness I met a bunch of women on here and we are now off somewhere in a secret web forum, over 30 of us and only a couple under 50. We have most of us now met in real life, not all of us but I can safely say that even if we haven't ever set eyes on each other we are as close as any real life group of friends could be. And I wonder if you started your career programming a PET and then lived through all the incarnations of windows you aren't actually more in tune with technology? Don't take all the whizzery and ease for granted?

whatwouldrondo Wed 20-Jul-16 15:06:00

I was going to make the point to Tiggy re her experience of Brexit views in London that in the 18 to 25 group which is very well represented in our home the arguments I heard on both sides had none of that Junker / immigration related rhetoric and I wonder if that is because they don't read the Sun or Daily Mail, or indeed any of the traditional papers. They get their news from varied online content both UK and overseas often led there by cues on social media or their friends raising issues.

The dominant issue for them was the chance to live and work in 27 countries. I know the issue of studying abroad has been painted as elitism but actually the Erasmus program is so entrenched in UK universities that for those who get to university they both have the chance and will know several students who have studied abroad and shared their experience. Most universities emphasise the need for global skills, in many languages are offered, if not compulsory. Quite apart from one daughters obvious engagement with Europe as a Scientist I think they tended to generally identify more with a European identity. Even those who voted leave were doing so from the point of view of the economic arguments and greater engagement with the rest of the world rather than illusory concepts of democracy and taking control. I had some long conversations with young people who didn't go to university too, such as the 18 year old who just started working in the local fishmongers (hence understanding the fisheries issue) and again no mention of Junker or immigration, just rational doscussion of facts (he was one of the ones who didn't vote because he felt he couldn't find strong enough arguments on either side)

Peregrina Wed 20-Jul-16 15:33:57

Brought over from the other thread:

At least the millennials will not face getting sacked for being pregnant, or sacked for being gay.

We don't know this. Andrea Leasdom was talking about taking away rights from pregnant women in small firms with 3 employees. Had she become PM she might have done this and then it could have been the thin end of the wedge.

TM talked a lot of fine words about spreading opportunities; time will tell if they become a reality. It's not been an area where the Tories have been strong so far.

I wasn't impressed with TM at PMQs - laying into Jeremy Corbyn - come on, there's a lot of work to be done, get on with it.

UnderTheGreenwoodTree Wed 20-Jul-16 15:43:21

I'm an old bird in my 40's, but my youngest half-siblings are millennials. They've done well, degrees, good jobs in London and so on - but I can tell you that they, and the majority of their friends, are furious with this vote. They see it as the older generation whipping away all the opportunities and benefits of being part of the EU. It is hard to refute this opinion, seeing the proportions of young remain voters and old leave voters.

It's tragic that so many of our bright young people feel they have had the rug pulled out from under them like this.

whatwouldrondo Wed 20-Jul-16 15:43:45

As posted on the millennial issue on the other thread

And whilst we are here then yes I do feel for the Millennials. I graduated in the 70s recession with no student debt and I and many of my peers from working class backgrounds more or less walked into good jobs including city banks and lawyers. By our mid 20s we were in a position to buy our own property. Salary in a graduate career would be over 5k, you could buy a flat for £20k. I experienced a lot of blatant discrimination of the bum pinching variety but still was steadily promoted.

Most 25 year old graduates in London, because yes the economy is London centric, are still living in student level rented accommodation or at home if it is within commuting distance even if they have managed to access well paid careers. One of the 25 year olds commutes I work with commutes from East Anglia. The pendulum of graduate reruitment has swung from merit based to connections based. Opportunities for those from a working class background have closed down and sexism is not overt but the number of women in well paid senior roles has gone backwards.

I find it deeply depressing because as a woman starting out in the 70s you could ride the unfairness with a sense of optimism, enjoy smashing through the ceilings. Now it seems as if it was for nothing.

whatwouldrondo Wed 20-Jul-16 15:51:13

Greenwood Yes to this

EverythingWillBeFine Wed 20-Jul-16 15:51:45

Checking in.
what I agree about lack of opportunity.
My parents who are baby boomers all go on about they were indeed very lucky and that wages spread has shrunk meaning there is now much less difference between someone on MW and some one working at management level.

Kaija Wed 20-Jul-16 15:55:16

Marking my place in the hope of discovering reasons to be cheerful...

Valentine2 Wed 20-Jul-16 15:57:55

Thanks for coming over here everyone. I have learnt a lot from the last one and hope this continues here.
bertrand
I have said sorry for that. Pls don't rub my nose in it. I don't mean offence. It's my experience with the people around me.

Valentine2 Wed 20-Jul-16 16:03:54

whatwouldrondo
I am really sorry for that comment honestly. I am probably in the bubble where the over 50s are absolutely not into tech unless it's for staying in touch and pics of their children. And I am really jealous that you have actually met lots of like minded people in person who you met on Internet first. DCs are young and I feel like I will never get out ever again though lots of people tell me it's not going to last forever.
I will give a lot to meet all you wise lot in person.

Valentine2 Wed 20-Jul-16 16:08:39

peregrina and whatwouldrondo on millennials:
Since the end of April/beginning of May, I am trying to keep an eye on the property prices in my area. The price of two bed flats has gone up and anything within a mile of the station is gone up around 25k plus minus something. That's a proper salary. And pretty much average UK salary I think. How do I buy? I am saving right now. But how do I compete with this?

Valentine2 Wed 20-Jul-16 16:11:27

And what's more, if BREXIT things keep going ahead and when and if we manage to support the economy afterwards, and befor the youngsters demand another referendum etc etc ...., will the property stay stable enough for us to buy? Already the £ has gone down enough to take a chunk away from our household. It's too fast paced to catch up for us.

Nightofthetentacle Wed 20-Jul-16 16:46:49

Millennial here in certain lights. I am frightened and furious in equal measure.

Placemarking for some positive outlook as I feel like I've been taken on this journey without much to hope for.

Valentine2 Wed 20-Jul-16 17:29:17

night
I am scared too. if that's how the prices are increasing, I just don't know what I will do and then my kids

EverythingWillBeFine Wed 20-Jul-16 17:39:30

Same here but for different reasons.
I'm scared I won't be able to stay here (EU national). I'm stressed out by the documents to fill to get a Permament residence Card.
I'm worried for y dcs who have been at the receiving end of xenophobic attacks.
And both me and DH are scared about the economy just collapsing.
DH has never entertained the idea to move from the area he is coming from. Not even 200 miles away. He is talking about looking at emigrating because he doesn't see any other way for me and the dcs sadsad It's that big of an issue for him.

That's why its really shit when some Leave voters are saying 'well just go away. Good ridance' because actually the person who is hurt the most here is DH, British and more of a Conservative sympathizer than I ever will be. Not me, I've moved countries several times. I can do it again. Not the dcs, they'll adapt, like most children.

whatwouldrondo Wed 20-Jul-16 18:35:14

Well I have actually lived in another country though obviously because I was white and North European then I was an expat not a migrant hmm And my home had not been bombed and I hadn't had to swim there and arrive with only the clothes on my back (though that was the background a lot of people who lived there) It was the best adventure of my life, our lives. Learnt about a new culture, made a lot of new friends and learnt to view "home" from another perspective. It enriched my life considerably and even sent me back to studying so that I could understand the new culture as well as my own. And after lots of mistakes stemming from looking at things from a western perspective in what was a very alien seeming culture I actually learned that we really have more in common than sets us apart, even if you have grown up with different values / religion / ideologies . If you do move away no reason why that shouldn't be a hugely positive experience as long as you are open minded.

Of course I also saw how the British were perceived - a big UK multinational had an office there, with round Windows, it was known as the house of a thousand arseholes and frankly the way that some Brits behaved, at least Boris does it with a concealing dash of humour, I am not really surprised.

Coming back to the UK was a very sobering experience. So much entitlement and just sheer bloody grumpiness, in all parts of society. When you were used to people with greater inequality and unfairness, and far fewer rights just getting on with it. To be sure they took to the streets to protest, risking arrest and beatings, but that was doing something. Brexit has reawakened all those feelings, a nation shoots itself in the foot because it is so bloody grumpy!!

UnderTheGreenwoodTree Wed 20-Jul-16 18:45:56

I'm worried for y dcs who have been at the receiving end of xenophobic attacks.

Everything, So sorry to read that. That's probably the worst thing about this whole fiasco - that this xenophobic crap has been unleashed.

I knew it was around - you hear stuff in taxis, pubs etc - but it's been somehow legitimised by this. And I know it's not all leavers blah blah - but it can't be ignored.

I share your fears about the economy, and also job losses. I have children about to start secondary school, GCSEs etc - what is the world going to be like when they're just embarking on adulthood in a few years?

Nobody, it seems, can tell me - because by a slim majority, we voted to jump off a cliff in the dark.

Valentine2 Wed 20-Jul-16 20:48:35

Labour MP in Cambridge is one of the very very few sane people right now in the party I think. Shared this today:

www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-36835566

GarlicStake Wed 20-Jul-16 21:00:28

Checking in but feeling utterly pissed off by current affairs & all the conversations I'm having about them. Being told I'm too old to understand the internet or internationalism, on top of the never-ending crap about how I'm a leech who's lived a life of consummate ease, has pretty much finished me off for now. Useless eater signing out.

Valentine2 Thu 21-Jul-16 01:46:43

Garlicwelcome and really sorry again for the comment.

Valentine2 Thu 21-Jul-16 01:49:37

larry
If you are around, can you pls tell me where did you take the value that says those kcal are equal to one pound fat?
And I don't think you can eat fat like that. It's really very unhealthy if eaten in quantities to make up for essential food as described in food pyramids.

BengalCatMum Thu 21-Jul-16 01:54:04

The pendulum of graduate recruitment has swung from merit based to connections based.

This is so true

BengalCatMum Thu 21-Jul-16 01:57:37

FWIW I am a millenial and I am not worried.

Life is what you make it, and we have a lot of making to do so we should get on with it. The more control the better; but then I am a control freak grin

larrygrylls Thu 21-Jul-16 06:52:24

Valentine,

Apparently (on checking), it is kcal 3,500 but it is an approximate number anyway. I am not suggesting eating the fat, though it is an interesting idea! The number comes from burning 1lb of fat ins burn calorimeter and heating water with it. Clearly there are issues of efficiency around it.

Our body can convert just about any food into fat from glycogen, assuming we also have the required trace elements to synthesise it.

We really are not a nation that needs to worry about food security, unless it is your supply of fresh ciabatta, cep, jamon iberico and champagne that concerns you.

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