Caroline Lucas is attempting to get Proportional Representation back on the agenda. If you agree, please support her.

(51 Posts)
crossroads3 Tue 19-Jul-16 06:32:51

Tomorrow (the 20th) Caroline Lucas will be putting forward a 10 minute rule bill proposing that Proportional Representation and the reduction of the minimum voting age to 16 become a fully fledged parliamentary bill. If you agree, please write to your MP.

ukgeneralelection2020.blogspot.co.uk/2016/07/ask-your-mp-to-vote-for-caroline-lucass.html?m=1

Sooverthis Tue 19-Jul-16 07:10:54

No I won't 16 is too young, proportional representation means coalitions and Caroline Lucas is a total arse

WidowWadman Tue 19-Jul-16 07:13:54

I wouldn't write to my MP exactly because I agree with Lucas - don't want to alert him to something he undoubtedly would vote down

tiggytape Tue 19-Jul-16 07:15:58

I don't think I would be demanding it in current times either.
A House of Commons with 83 UKIP MPs who would hold more power than the SNP and Green Party combined is not something I would welcome

QueenLaBeefah Tue 19-Jul-16 07:16:23

I think 16 is too young.

QueenLaBeefah Tue 19-Jul-16 07:17:44

And if we had PR we would have quite a lot of UKIP MPs. With Brexit going on maybe we have enough "reform" going on?

WidowWadman Tue 19-Jul-16 07:20:44

I'm not sure if a Tory majority with no working opposition is any better. Yes UKIP may gain some MPs, but so would greens and libdems, which are currently completely shut out.

ThroughThickAndThin01 Tue 19-Jul-16 07:21:47

I don't mind PR, although wasn't there s got to change in 2011? You can't keep getting people to vote every 5 minutes on everything.

I don't agree with the voting age being lowered to 16.

ThroughThickAndThin01 Tue 19-Jul-16 07:23:22

I think UKIP would gain hugely unless Article 50 and leaving the eu is actually activated.

QueenLaBeefah Tue 19-Jul-16 07:24:44

UKIP would have 80 MPs and be the third largest party. I'll give it a miss, thanks.

tiggytape Tue 19-Jul-16 07:32:29

I think UKIP would gain hugely unless Article 50 and leaving the eu is actually activated.
But they are already huge in terms of share of the vote (3rd largest party in the UK). It is only the FPTP system that stop that translating into seats in the House of Commons.
Even if their support stays exactly the same, they would have 83 seats in a coalition government in 2015 using PR. That's a lot of clout and a lot of power (which some say is democratically desirable given how many millions of people vote for them but...)

I'm not sure if a Tory majority with no working opposition is any better. Yes UKIP may gain some MPs, but so would greens and libdems, which are currently completely shut out.
On 2015 result, under PR:
Conservatives 242 MPs
Labour 199 MPs
UKIP around 82 or 83MPs.
Greens around 24 MPs
Lib Dems 51 MPs
SNP 31MPs

So the progressive left that some want to see would have a bit more power on all the issues they can agree on. They would have about 305 seats
But UKIP and Tories could always have more power on anything they agreed on (or came to a compromise on) with 324 combined.

ThroughThickAndThin01 Tue 19-Jul-16 07:34:50

tiggy i can't see a need for UKIP past leaving the eu. Would there still be massive support for them once this has happened?

ThroughThickAndThin01 Tue 19-Jul-16 07:36:33

.....The opposite of if we hasn't voted Brexit, UKIP would have risen substantially to take huge swathes of seats.

tiggytape Tue 19-Jul-16 07:40:53

It depends how the Brexit deals pans out I suspect.
If we have a hard Brexit (immigration controls being UKIP's thing) then no, they would not attract voters in the same numbers that they do now. It would be job done. I'm not sure anyone's banking on that right now though.
It could equally go the other way with a huge rise in UKIP support if things get diluted or ignored over the coming years.

QueenLaBeefah Tue 19-Jul-16 07:40:57

Do you think is Scotland went independent the SNP would suddenly cease to exist?

You are being naive if you think UKIP would simply dissapear.

ThroughThickAndThin01 Tue 19-Jul-16 07:46:21

I would imagine if Scotland went independent then other parties would rise, yes. Again, their reason for existing would have been fulfilled giving voters the luxury of looking at other parties they might be interested in voting for.

ThroughThickAndThin01 Tue 19-Jul-16 07:46:59

their reason = SNP

Twooter Tue 19-Jul-16 07:50:26

So much for democracy if you only want it if the right people gain..

I don't think it's great that the SNP have such a big role in Westminster relative to its vote share.

tiggytape Tue 19-Jul-16 08:02:12

So much for democracy if you only want it if the right people gain..
That's true but the main appeal for FPTP isn't just keeping down parties at the extreme ends of the spectrum but making coalitions less likely. Traditionally UK voters do not like coalitions. They were furious with Clegg for cosying up to the Tories and outraged that a Lib Dem vote helped Tories take power. They didn't care that LibDem were able to deliver a referendum on AV, all that they saw was LibDems sold out on tuition fee promises.

When coalitions emerge, horse trading is needed and back room deals are done. Manifesto promises go out the window because each party relies on the other ones to support it and even the natural allies don't agree on every manifesto pledges.
So when you are a Labour voter who switches to LibDem because you feel strongly about tuition fees and Lib Dems use their new power to support the Tories and to get an AV referendum, you may or may not feel more democratically represented than you would under the FPTP system.

AveEldon Tue 19-Jul-16 08:07:53

It's only 5 years since we had the referendum on AV - not the same as PR but it was rejected

LunaLoveg00d Tue 19-Jul-16 08:09:28

I do agree with PR and voted in favour whenever it was we had the referendum. I don't support Caroline Lucas though and support my SNP MP even less - the man is an arrogant, vain person who blocked me and several others on Twitter for pointing out that the photo he was using on his election material was at least 25 years old.

No point in writing to him as he only listens to the SNP faithful, and SNP MPs are incapable of independent (excuse the pun) thinking, they move en masse and follow proclamations from the top.

prettybird Tue 19-Jul-16 08:59:47

You can't extrapolate how people voted under FPTP in 2011 to how they would vote in an election based on PR.

And despite the fact that the SNP benefitted from FPTP in 2011, they're still in favour of a PR system.

We didn't really get a vote on PR when we had the referendum: we had a vote on AV, which is really just another way of perpetuating a confrontational party system, only this time with the dictating party of power being claim a complete mandate for everything that they do sad - when it's not really a vote "for" them.

RortyCrankle Tue 19-Jul-16 09:05:47

Absolutely not, I disagree with both PR and 16 year olds voting.

80sMum Tue 19-Jul-16 09:20:42

I don't think that 16-year-olds should be able to vote; they are still children.

tiggytape Tue 19-Jul-16 09:25:50

You can't extrapolate how people voted under FPTP in 2011 to how they would vote in an election based on PR.
The figures are based on the 2015 General Election and share of the vote so are accurate in that sense. However you are right that PR might change voting habits entirely but that could also lead to smaller parties getting even more MPs (or maybe not).
It might go one of two ways under PR:
1. People don't vote tactically but according to their true wishes because they know their vote counts more now. This could lead to a huge increase in the number of people who vote for parties that usually have no chance of winning under FPTP. So many more people may vote UKIP, Green and LibDem than do now.

Or

2. People feel better represented overall so don't go in for protest votes just because they live in a safe Tory or Labour seat and therefore the Greens and UKIP lose out.

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