Finally! Why the leavers voted leave and why no ones talking about it!

(111 Posts)
Chris1234567890 Sat 02-Jul-16 23:39:41

This is at least a week overdue, but at least Janet Daly at The Telegraph has grasped the nettle......

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/07/02/if-we-dont-talk-about-immigration-now-there-will-be-hell-to-pay/

MangoMoon Sun 03-Jul-16 00:07:56

Really good article - thank goodness people are finally talking about it.
It's only taken about 10 years...

scaryteacher Sun 03-Jul-16 00:20:43

It'[s a really great article. Even my left of centre undergrad ds agreed with a lot of it.

YourPerception Sun 03-Jul-16 00:26:11

It's not the only reason people voted leave. It is the reason for some though. What to do when there is a power vacuum in Westminster and a third of the country are struggling with grief?

dollylucy Sun 03-Jul-16 00:28:23

Everyone I know is talking about it confused

smallfox1980 Sun 03-Jul-16 00:31:30

Oh whatever.

Strange that the areas with the highest levels of EU migration voted in, in almost all cases.

FastWindow Sun 03-Jul-16 00:34:11

It stops at the point where i was expecting a point.

Chris1234567890 Sun 03-Jul-16 00:38:56

*Yourperception "*What to do when there is a power vacuum in Westminster and a third of the country are struggling with grief?"*
*
Go complain and shout at the other 3rd who couldnt be arsed getting off their arses to vote in the first place. Who else are you suggesting?

smallfox1980 Sun 03-Jul-16 00:42:50

It doesn't really come up with anything new, just rehashes several arguments put forward by the leave camp against immigration which are meant to sound "reasonable".

hubris Sun 03-Jul-16 00:53:34

Good article. I think it's more than a week overdue!

It has not been pointed out enough that exploiting a continuous flow of people from poorer countries to prop up the economies of richer ones is morally dubious.

Especially with regard to the 'our NHS would collapse without migrant workers' argument. No thought or care for the state of the health service in those workers' country of origin, the country that spent money training them.

KissMyArse Sun 03-Jul-16 01:00:11

Can't read it as apparently I'm over my limit of free articles.

On that basis I'm going to just gloss over whatever it is and blame anyone who voted for the current Tory Govt as they were the ones who promised a referendum.

<take that and party (politics)>

SisterConcepta Sun 03-Jul-16 01:01:04

And her point was? People have always been anxious about immigration.

pastygothboy Sun 03-Jul-16 01:04:32

Is there any evidence that health services in Eastern Europe are suffering because of migration to the West?

Has Janet Daley ever shown the slightest concern about this issue, until she decided it was a useful argument she could use against immigration to the UK without appearing xenophobic.

Perhaps the answer to both these questions is "yes", but I thought I should ask.

scaryteacher Sun 03-Jul-16 01:10:17

kissmyarse Can't read it as apparently I'm over my limit of free articles. If you take the cookies off from the DT website and block them from putting cookies on, you can read away without hitting a limit. You don't get the ads or the pics either.

smallfox1980 Sun 03-Jul-16 01:12:24

It is a device created so that you can debate immigration without appearing xenophobic.

work.

Also there isn't much evidence for her "brain drain" worries, because a huge number of migrants return home after a number of years.

static.guim.co.uk/ni/1390829680973/NHS_staff_graphic.pdf

The info here shows that this argument is pretty bogus anyway.

KissMyArse Sun 03-Jul-16 01:14:04

scaryteacher

Thank you.

pastygothboy Sun 03-Jul-16 01:18:49

Thank you smallfox.

I didn't recognise her portrayal of Poland as "a protectorate".

The Polish Government has a number of interesting opinions about Brexit, but AFAIK they don't include the UK's poaching of their oncologists/physics teachers.

hubris Sun 03-Jul-16 01:19:53

Sure. Take Latvia.

www.france24.com/en/20120522-latvia-emigration-population-brain-drain-economy

www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-10913098

Latvia's population has shrunk by 13% in a decade. Working population by 15%. By a strange coincidence, they joined the EU in 2004.

Demographic disaster..brain drain...Large diaspora to Britain...coaxing scientists to come home...

pastygothboy Sun 03-Jul-16 01:25:07

In relation to Latvia, I stand corrected.

Is this a big problem for other E European countries as well?

It would have helped had JD quoted some actual evidence in her piece.

smallfox1980 Sun 03-Jul-16 01:25:53

But Latvia's population is about 2.2 million.

So in reality it has lowered by 286,000 in 10 years, the working population will have lowered by less than that.

There is also a declining birth rate.

So really its not that huge a number of people leaving, its a number of factors.

pastygothboy Sun 03-Jul-16 01:29:45

Whatever the actual position in Latvia, I am still not convinced that Janet Daley genuinely spends much time worrying about labour supply issues east of the Vistula...

hubris Sun 03-Jul-16 01:31:52

Also Lithuania has problems:

www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-31488046

"Migration is often seen in terms of the impact on western countries.
But losing the young and talented has big consequences for the economies and education systems of countries left behind. In Lithuania it means universities, the launchpads of innovation, can struggle to find enough applicants."

"High levels of migration since joining the European Union in 2004 are partly responsible, with European Union statistics showing that almost 54,000 people left in 2011 - half of them heading to the UK."

hubris Sun 03-Jul-16 01:35:21

Romania:

www.theguardian.com/world/2014/feb/07/romanian-health-service-crisis-doctors-uk

According to the president of the Romanian College of Physicians.

pastygothboy Sun 03-Jul-16 01:37:47

Is 54,000 people out of a population of 3m that many though?

323,000 people left the UK last year....

How much emigration would be a "good" number for Lithuania?

pastygothboy Sun 03-Jul-16 01:42:44

I agree the Romanian numbers look bad.

But post Brexit, if we need more doctors, we're going to recruit them from wherever aren't we?

Or is our future "Australian points-based system" (snarf) going to take account of the impact of UK skills shortages on other countries?

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