EU nations flat out refuse to negotiate with Scotland & won't let Scotland stay in the EU

(39 Posts)
BritBrit Wed 29-Jun-16 17:04:53

Bosses of the EU & EU nations such as France & Spain have said they will not negotiate with Scotland & will not discuss Scotland joining the EU. They will only negotiate with the UK as a whole

Will this impact on a 2nd independence referendum? e.g. Scotland would have to reapply to join, adopt the Euro/Schengen etc. Spain also hint that if Scotland were to reapply after the UK leaves they would block them joining, clearly concerned over Catalonia

BeauBelle22 Wed 29-Jun-16 17:28:13

A second independence referendum now looks inevitable, although I think Sturgeon et al will take their time over it to ensure - this time - they get the 'right' result.

With Northern Ireland nearly as pro-EU as Scotland, and Plaid Cymru's Leanne Wood murmuring about how Wales would change its stance if it too was independent, I think you're looking at nothing less than the dissolution of the UK. If this happens then England will end up as a small independent nation surrounded by EU countries on all sides, including - most likely - a united Ireland.

Food for thought.

alltouchedout Wed 29-Jun-16 17:31:55

I feel for Scotland. I feel for all of us who wanted to remain, but one of the big promises made at indyref was "stay in the UK and you'll stay in the EU". I really opposed going independent before but now I think good luck to them, if I could divorce myself from the mess the UK has become I would. (And I have a Scottish dad so I hope I could claim citizenship that way...)

tiggytape Wed 29-Jun-16 17:42:34

Wales voted Leave more convincingly than England did and Plaid doesn't speak for Wales.

As for Scotland, the EU won't negotiate until Article 50 is invoked. They've been adamant on that so it isn't surprising that Scotland have got some sympathy but little else.

And, apart from the desire to wait for proper negotiations to start, some EU countries are expected to be quite vocal about ignoring the separateness of Scotland. They too have areas which are determined to break away and who tell supporters that they can still have EU benefits after independence
Spain especially will be keen to stamp down heavily on anything that opens a possible pathway for Catalonia to gain independence and get international recognition or still remain in the EU.

(I'm not saying I don't see Scotland as a country in its own right and acknowledge its separateness within the UK - just that there's a chance Spain won't want Catalonia to get any funny ideas!)

OurBlanche Wed 29-Jun-16 17:47:37

Well, during the Scottish referendum, the EU position was that it would be 'difficult if not impossible' for Scotland to join the EU alone.

The EU has stated clearly that it will not discuss anything with the UK until the A50 is triggered

Scotland is still part of the UK, so they can't start any negotiations and if they do leave why would the original EU stance have changed?

Sadly for the SNP there is little that a 2nd referendum would do for them. They could find themselves out of the UK and the EU...

tiggytape Wed 29-Jun-16 17:52:29

Scotland is still part of the UK, so they can't start any negotiations and if they do leave why would the original EU stance have changed?
I think it's too early to say it's not possible - just that it won't be automatic. A Dutch(?) leader yesterday for example said he could see Scotland joining the EU as a possibility. Not remaining - but joining (he didn't make the distinction but it was perhaps a deliberate choice of words?)

That way Catalonia and other separatist regions might be able to be told Scotland somehow qualifies for membership but they don't to square the circle in that way.

RiverTam Wed 29-Jun-16 17:56:01

I'd be surprised if Scotland got accepted into the EU, if it did hold and win another indyref, I doubt its finances would stand up to scrutiny.

Corcory Wed 29-Jun-16 17:57:54

I'm glad to hear NS's posturing being put in to context. She shouldn't think she can go around negotiating on Scotland's behalf whilst being part of the UK.
If the idea of a second referendum in Scotland was put on the back burner there might start to be a bit more stability.
Don't feel sorry for Scotland I'll bet most of us don't really want another referendum anyway. 40% of us voted leave and a lot of the remains will want stability and wanted the status quo.

Lilmisskittykat Wed 29-Jun-16 17:58:22

I can't see how Scotland could meet the criteria to join the eu it's in own right. They lean too heavily on England financially

Pangurban1 Wed 29-Jun-16 18:13:35

Guy van V. said there was no obstacle to an independent Scotland joining EU.

Spain wrt Catalonia, France wrt Brittany (although this cooled down) have issues, of course, with secessionist states.

Not every state is against it. NS has support in Taoiseach Enda Kenny.

"Enda Kenny says today that in last night's meeting of 28 EU leaders (where Cameron was still present!) he spoke on behalf of Nicola Sturgeon"

"Taoiseach repeated, on FM's request, Scotland's "very strong belief that they should not be dragged out of the EU when they voted to stay"

twitter.com/gavreilly/status/748179483023314944

scaryteacher Wed 29-Jun-16 18:20:32

Verhofstadt is an MEP, he has no power, he just likes to think he does....

Belgium could also object, there is a secessionist movement here too.

Summer23 Wed 29-Jun-16 18:23:13

To say Nicola Sturgeon shouldn't be be negotiating on behalf of Scotland is simply ridiculous, she is First Minister. She's doing her job.

RiverTam Wed 29-Jun-16 18:26:17

Scotland is not a nation state, so no, she shouldn't be negotiating, any more than Sadiq Khan could or should.

Pangurban1 Wed 29-Jun-16 18:27:27

Of course, he is an ex pm.

This Dr MacAmhlaigh thinks they could be flexible, if there was the will.

www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scotland-politics-36643385

Some Countries very hardline though.

Corcory Wed 29-Jun-16 18:28:43

Summer - Scotland is part of the UK and it's the UK who are members of the EU so that's who the EU will negotiate with.

Summer23 Wed 29-Jun-16 18:38:10

Scotland voted to stay in, it's expected NS will do what she can.

Pangurban1 Wed 29-Jun-16 18:41:09

Unlike Arlene Foster wrt NI's vote to remain.

RiverTam Wed 29-Jun-16 18:42:30

Doesn't matter. The EU is made up of nation states, Scotland is not a nation state and lost its fairly recent referendum on the subject. Before it can even think about starting to apply to join the EU it needs to be a nation state.

Just more evidence of NS's megalomania, tbh. How the fuck does she think Scotland will meet the EU's economic criteria??

QueenLaBeefah Wed 29-Jun-16 18:59:27

Spain will block Scotland ever joining the EU.

STIDW Wed 29-Jun-16 22:31:19

EU won't get involved in UK internal politics. If there is another Scottish referendum & voters vote for independence before Brexit there is a possibility under human rights/international law Scotland could remain in the EU without having to reapply. Otherwise if Scotland voted for independence after Brexit it would need to reapply & accession would take 5-7 years.

user1467101855 Wed 29-Jun-16 22:35:57

If Scotland gained independence the EU would have to treat them the same as any other independent country. They couldn't refuse to negotiate at all.

PattyPenguin Wed 29-Jun-16 22:37:49

As another poster has pointed out to tiggytape on another thread, Wales did not vote Leave more convincingly than England.

The figures:

England: Remain 11,113,232 votes (46.4%), Leave 9,611,351 votes (53.6%)
Wales: Remain 772,347 votes (47.5%), Leave 854,472 votes (52.5%)
Northern Ireland: Remain 408,744 votes (55.3%), Leave 330,783 votes (44.7%)
Scotland: Remain 1,661,191 votes (62%), Leave 1,018,322 votes (38%)

So in fact a slightly larger percentage of people voted Remain in Wales than in England.

Corcory Wed 29-Jun-16 22:39:01

STIDW - I can't see how Scotland can have a indy referendum before Brexit. Surely the only way she would possible get a yes vote would be if she could guarantee Scotland would get into the EU and of course the EU have said they won't negotiate with anything other than a nation state and the only way that works if we are independent first and I really can't see that happening.

mathanxiety Wed 29-Jun-16 22:48:27

Strange to see denial even extends to the prospect of a Scottish referendum.

tiggytape Wed 29-Jun-16 23:13:18

You are quite correct but Wales did vote Leave overall with a 5% majority.
There were 22 areas of counting in Wales and 17 of them voted Leave overall
Within that some of them were very strongly Leave: Ebbw Vale was 62% for example.

In terms of the outcome, Wales doesn't have anything like the same argument as Scotland for feeling unheard in this particular vote. The way they voted is in line with the way England voted (1% different and same overall winner)

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