If you voted Leave, but were opposed to Scottish independence...

(22 Posts)
Tabsicle Mon 27-Jun-16 23:49:08

...how the hell do you square that?

And how on Earth can you seriously get grumpy about the Scots for pushing for it now?

It's the inconsistency that is bothering me.

Corcory Mon 27-Jun-16 23:53:37

I voted to leave the EU and I believe the whole of the UK would be better off out of the EU but together in the union.

Tabsicle Tue 28-Jun-16 00:14:08

Can I ask if you're Scottish? And if not, surely you should be encouraging the Scots to make a decision on that? As the English did?

Alisvolatpropiis Tue 28-Jun-16 00:17:23

Interesting question. I didn't vote leave so can't offer any insight though.

Valentine2 Tue 28-Jun-16 00:38:16

corcory
One rule for yourself, the other for the rest? That's democracy eh?

Tabsicle Tue 28-Jun-16 00:38:52

I voted No in indyref and Remain in Brexit. And I'm feeling quite betrayed by people I thought were on my side when we were campaigning for Better Together and then turned around and proceeded to ignore their own arguments. And, in some cases, start spouting about national sovereignty. It feels really wrong and I'm trying to understand.

HirplesWithHaggis Tue 28-Jun-16 00:48:02

Yes, OP, it's been very strange to see "Better Together"ers from the indyref spouting the same arguments Yes did; we want to make laws for ourselves, ya de blah (sorry, they've all been well rehearsed and I cba repeating them!) but still wanting to deny those things to the Scots. I was a yesser and a remain voter, so I'm not having the same cognitive dissonance you are now - but I do sympathise, because I had mine during the campaign. And I had to vote the same way as David Cameron, that was a headfuck and a half!

So although I didn't vote leave, I do very much understand where you're coming from. Shit, isn't it? flowers

HirplesWithHaggis Tue 28-Jun-16 00:51:04

Sorry, I mean "although I didn't vote No". You still get the flowers though. smile

RortyCrankle Tue 28-Jun-16 00:53:50

I am not Scottish, I voted Leave because i thought that was best for the country, for 64m people, not just the 4m Scots who voted Remain.

I am not opposed to Scottish independence, that is for the Scots to decide but personally hope Scotland will stay within the UK. If they leave that is their choice but fear that they have a bumpy ride ahead for several reasons.

Luckymummy22 Tue 28-Jun-16 07:16:06

Tabs ice, I didn't vote in Indie Ref as I lI've in England but my votes would have been the same.

All I can say is at the moment I don't identify as British. I'm a Scot living in England.

Tabsicle Tue 28-Jun-16 08:28:16

Cognitive dissonance is massive. Thank you HirplesWithHaggis. I am in such an odd place right now. I kinda regret my "no" vote. Very unsure how I'll vote if there's a second indyref but am leaning towards "yes", along with most of the "no" voters I know.

We voted to stay in the UK because we believed in the EU, in financial stability, in a larger whole. And that doesn't seem to be happening right now.

I'm a weird Scots-English hybrid. Born in Scotland, raised in England (so English accent, Scottish parents), and returned to Scotland in my teens. Probably lived more than half my life in Scotland, but the accent has always made me feel a bit foreign, but this recent referendum has really made me wonder if maybe I was wrong and I don't understand England at all. I'm just a weird infiltrator Scot.

HirplesWithHaggis Tue 28-Jun-16 15:09:01

Ach, don't beat yourself up for a vote that's gone by. You made the decision that seemed right for you at the time, but things have now changed dramatically in a way no-one could have foreseen, and there would be no shame in changing your mind for the next one. We'll just have to wait and see.

EU high heid yins seem very keen to talk with Nicola about us staying, and Alyn Smith MEP got an actual standing ovation in the EU Parliament for his powerful speech this morning, so there's hope for Scotland (and maybe NI & Gibralter) staying in the EU yet.

Auti Tue 28-Jun-16 15:20:39

I'm not Scottish but can't help Sturgeon is acting recklessly.

The post below outlines my gut feelings more eloquently than I could.

''If the Scots believe their future is best served outside the UK then that's regrettable (I'm a unionist), but it is not the job of the English or Welsh to vote based on what they think will least upset Scottish voters and it is unreasonable and self-centred to expect them to. I won't even begin to talk about the democratic deficit in the UK brought about by Scottish MPs voting on matters that only affect England. The English have shown remarkable patience and flexibility to keep Scotland in the UK but it seems it is never enough.

A few facts to remind you of Alex. Cameron committed to an in or out referendum on our membership of the European Union in 2013. The polls consistently showed that there was a realistic chance the UK would vote to leave the EU. In 2014, after the commitment to an EU referendum was made, Scotland held its independence referendum, with the SNP promising to both Scots and the rest of the UK that this was a 'once in a generation, possibly once in a lifetime' event. Scotland voted comfortably to stay in the UK despite knowing an EU referendum was a realistic possibility. You seem remarkably relaxed about the astonishing level of deception it would represent to even hold a 2nd independence referendum anytime soon but hey ho.

I'm not sure you quite appreciate the complications and hurdles that face Scotland before it could leave the UK and re-join the EU. Obviously, Scotland would actually have to become an independent country. That's the easy bit. There seems to be a fantasy idea doing the rounds that Scotland could somehow glide seamlessly from the UK into the welcoming arms of the EU. This is nonsense. An independent Scotland would need to go through a long and painstaking accession process. While it may be tempting to believe that a bitter and jilted EU would allow Scotland to waltz straight in so as to punish the rest of the UK, the reality is rather different.

Firstly, the EU has rather a lot on its hands right now, not least trying to ensure its very survival and manage the members it already has.

Secondly, all 27 member states would have to approve Scotland's entry into the EU. The likes of Croatia, which had to go through a ten-year process, would not be likely to approve of Scotland's immediate accession.

Thirdly, the UK still has allies in Europe. There are many countries, particularly in Eastern Europe, that rely on a strong United Kingdom in NATO. They know the breakup of the United Kingdom would greatly diminish our NATO commitments and will therefore not be keen to make an independent Scotland seem an attractive proposition and will likely stand in the way of any EU membership.

Fourthly, Spain isn't particularly keen on accepting new members that have seceded from other members given its own problems in trying to keep itself intact.

Fifth, although Scotland could be a successful independent country in the long term, in the short term it would be an economic basket case. The economic case didn't add up last time, the currency question was never resolved and the fact that the bloated Scottish state would need to drastically downsize, with all the pain that will entail still remains. Add into the mix the collapse in the oil price and the decimated oil industry and it doesn't look pretty. It's highly doubtful, therefore, that Scotland would meet the economic criteria required to join the EU in the short to medium term. The EU has enough economic basket cases to fund without adding another.

If Scotland ever did join the EU, you would also be joining the Eurozone, and the common market and Schengen, necessitating a border with the rest of the UK. You would voluntarily cut yourself off from by far your biggest trading partner in order to entertain the slim possibility that in many years hence you could join an enormously flawed, democratically unaccountable, failing superstate? It would be an irrational move that would cause the rest of the UK and the world considerable harm, and Scotland enormous harm. And for what? To prove a point? To show the English how upset you are with them for not voting the way you wanted them to? Perhaps your friends are not so different from the average SNP member. Happy to throw the Union to the fire and commit an enormous act of self-harm simply to prove a point. With 'Unionists' like that, who needs Nats?

A final point. Nicola Sturgeon is, I am sure, aware she has no chance of getting into the EU anytime soon once the UK leaves. What we have witnessed from her since the referendum result is posturing and bluster with little substance. She knows she is ultimately powerless to prevent this. She has so far managed to secure a meeting with Guy Verhofstadt, a bizarre Belgian joke with a longstanding hatred of Britain and no real power. Quite what Ms. Sturgeon is hoping to negotiate from him is anyone's guess. A Belgian waffle? It will be interesting to see what her end game is here, given she will have nothing to offer the Scottish people at the end of this. She should tread carefully.''

RortyCrankle Tue 28-Jun-16 17:05:23

Auti I don't know if the post you quoted was by you or not but I thought it was fantastic and says clearly and in detail what I have tried to say on several threads but nowhere as successfully. Thank you for posting it. If I use part of it in the future I will ensure it's clear that I am quoting someone else's writing.

RortyCrankle Tue 28-Jun-16 17:06:03

Should have added that I agree with every single word.

MorrisZapp Tue 28-Jun-16 17:15:37

Where is that quote from? It sums up my views exactly.

I'd say the cognitive dissonance is most clearly displayed by Scots yessers who think they're outward looking and can prove it by severing ties with their nearest neighbours.

Corcory Tue 28-Jun-16 23:15:13

Auti - excellent, just what I've been thinking but much more eloquently put.
My major problem with the idea of Scotland going it alone is the fact that we would cut ourselves of from our biggest market. NS made a big thing about the EU taking 40% of Scotland's exports but if the rUK become a different country she would have us dismiss the trade we do with them which is 4 times more than the EU and that doesn't count half our oil an gas that we sell to the rUK.

Auti Wed 29-Jun-16 14:06:39

Glad you liked it.

I found on the comments section of this article from the Spectator
The poster was top rated for the article called DurhamBorn or something like that.

I'm avoiding the popular MSM at the mo, due to the ongoing hysteria. sad

Bluebolt Wed 29-Jun-16 14:21:50

I switched between the two just as DP (Irish born) but we settled on remain but we based the decision around our children and not about nationality. As for independence whilst SNP where in power independence will not leave the table the most this vote would do is speed it up.

There's another big thread which got punted to Scotnet discussing how no voters feel now.

DailyMailEthicalFail Wed 29-Jun-16 14:29:00

Oh, THANK YOU. that is an excellent quote. very well put.

Corcory Wed 29-Jun-16 18:49:45

Oh and by the way Tab I am Scottish! But I have also lived all over the world including England.

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