I may change my vote.

(117 Posts)
CarlGrimesMissingEye Mon 20-Jun-16 06:34:34

I have been firmly on the side of leave. Predominately thanks to my basic disagreement with ever closer union. I was having a very healthy, sensible and inoffensive discussion with a remained for who I have great respect, and he pointed me in the direction of this:

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/06/17/david-camerons-end-to-europes-ever-closer-union-means-britain-sh/

I read it and went on to glance over Tusk's later about the exemptions for Great Britain if we remain in the EU here:

http://www.consilium.europa.eu/en/press/press-releases/2016/02/02-letter-tusk-proposal-new-settlement-uk/

I would be curious to hear the views of other people here as to how they feel about this specific issue. How likely is it that Tusk and the EU can renege on their promises?

To be honest, if what is written about us being exempted from the ratchet of EU tighter control and the notion of being entitled to a referendum before more powers are conceded is true then that allays many of my concerns.

However, I am aware of the legislative creep that may circumvent this and I also have a basic lack of trust in politicians so I'm not 100% on certain what to do again.

Any views, other information etc would be great.

NameNumber2 Mon 20-Jun-16 06:42:18

Watching with interest as my concerns are the same as yours.

bridgetoc Mon 20-Jun-16 06:50:20

Some people are so gullible........ Get a grip and vote brexit!

CarlGrimesMissingEye Mon 20-Jun-16 06:54:22

Bridge I'm not gullible, hence me questioning the information I've been given. Can you explain more fully WHY I shouldn't trust this. I was looking for discussion and to be informed. Not to be spoken to like an errant child.

mollie123 Mon 20-Jun-16 06:55:33

has it been agreed with all 28 members? - is it worth the paper it is written on if not hmm

CarlGrimesMissingEye Mon 20-Jun-16 06:56:37

That's my concern Mollie. It's all very well saying they'll do it, it's very different actually passing it!

ThroughThickAndThin01 Mon 20-Jun-16 07:00:09

It's so vague! All 'draft' 'propose' etc. It looks like a wishy washy attempt to placate the uk with promises that won't be fulfilled,

CarlGrimesMissingEye Mon 20-Jun-16 07:04:59

According to the EU Council website the agreement linked to below is described in these terms "Following intense negotiations, EU leaders achieved a deal which strengthens Britain's special status in the EU. It is *a legally binding and irreversible decision* by all 28 leaders"

http://www.consilium.europa.eu/en/meetings/european-council/2016/02/euco-conclusions_pdf/

OrangesandLemonsNow Mon 20-Jun-16 07:05:05

The underpinning of the EU is 'ever greater union' not sure how you can fully disengage from that without leaving.

How can you be wanting to move in one direction whilst test of EU move in another?

Plus as has been said. If not agreed by all then not worth the paper it's written on.

WellErrr Mon 20-Jun-16 07:07:27

Most all of the scaremongering stuff coming out now is utter bollocks. Irresponsible lies and truth bending because Remain are shitting themselves because polls are showing that the people actually want out.

It's one thing saying 'the sky could fall in if we leave' it's quite another it actually happening.

bridgetoc Mon 20-Jun-16 07:08:11

Check the date on the letter from Tusk....... It was just before Cameron went to negotiate the E.U reform for our "special status." Read through Tusks words, and you will realise that they do not amount to a hill of beans. That letter means nothing, and that is what Cameron brought back from the negotiations. NOTHING! However, some people still believe his utter guff about how we can "reform the E.U from within." Gullible...... You are having a wobble Carlg, but I have no doubt you will see sense and vote Brexit.

OrangesandLemonsNow Mon 20-Jun-16 07:11:55

It hasn't been written in yet and only will be when treaty is next changed. From what I understand from this passage.

shinytorch2 Mon 20-Jun-16 07:12:26

How can you be sure what will happen in the future? More poor countries joining, Southern Europe with 40-50% youth unemployment, will the euro survive, more bail outs. Will there be an EU army? Cam says no, Juncker's says without one the EU won't get taken seriously with respect to foreign policy. Will turkey join??cam says no, having said he's the main man for paving the way from Ankara to Brussels.

If we are exempt from "ever closer union" what role do we have in the EU. They just want our money to keep propping the political project up for longer. And we have no control over any of it. We are one of 28 voices soon to be 32.

Cam couldn't get reform before this vote......as if they will reform anything once we stay in if that's what happens.

CarlGrimesMissingEye Mon 20-Jun-16 07:12:32

Oranges you make a very good point. Long term being separate and with different rules from all the other countries just doesn't sit right still.

I watched DC last night on telly too. It struck me, when he was saying he has agreements until 2028 and that Turkey won't join for 30 years etc that although that seems a long time, it's 50 years since we voted to join and look how much has changed since then. Staying in is always a risk.

CarlGrimesMissingEye Mon 20-Jun-16 07:13:13

You're all being helpful. Thank you!

mummytime Mon 20-Jun-16 07:15:09

Most of Europe no longer want "ever closer union" - especially after the crisis in the Euro, hence the rise of "nationalist" parties in just about every country.
France : www.telegraph.co.uk/business/2016/06/07/france-shuns-europe-as-brexit-revolt-spreads/
Or The netherlands www.ft.com/cms/s/0/5a973412-da86-11e2-a237-00144feab7de.html#axzz4C66gJhtO

OrangesandLemonsNow Mon 20-Jun-16 07:15:35

That is what I don't think some Remain voters don't understand.

There is absolutely no certainty whether we leave or stay.

bridgetoc Mon 20-Jun-16 07:17:35

The gravy train is coming to an end, and they know it. The Danish will be next, and then the Dutch. I'm proud that Britain is leading the way.....

Clangersarepink Mon 20-Jun-16 07:21:02

The EU can't even force us to keep our air clean, I can't see further integration happening unless we elect a government who really wants it. If that happens, we'll be joining the EU again and leaving now would have simply been a hugely expensive mistake.

CoolforKittyCats Mon 20-Jun-16 07:22:32

Most of Europe no longer want "ever closer union" - especially after the crisis in the Euro, hence the rise of "nationalist" parties in just about every country.

Which is why in the future I can actually see more countries breaking away.

shinytorch2 Mon 20-Jun-16 07:23:46

Remain need to tell us what the future of The EU looks like given the mismatch between North and Southern Europe, the uncertainty that the euro can survive, the growth in euroscepticism in other away countries. All they do is rubbish the vote leave proposal with project fear.

If you vote remain you are not voting for the status quo. You don't know what you are voting for. The only certainty is we are rich compared to most other EU countries so we will be paying for future problems - witness the E1.7 bn bill we got in 2015..... Cam said I'm not paying that it's absurd.......and then paid!!

MangosteenSoda Mon 20-Jun-16 07:25:26

The concessions in Tusk's letter were debated among the member states and formally agreed by the other 27 member states in the February Council meeting on 18-19 Feb. As such, it is now a legally binding and irreversible decision should the UK choose to stay.

WaspsandBeesSting Mon 20-Jun-16 07:30:20

If you vote remain you are not voting for the status quo. You don't know what you are voting for.

Exactly the way I feel.

No one knew even 10years ago that the EU would be how it is now.

Anyone who says things won't change are being disingenuous.

Also as for 'changing from within'. Well yes but only if all other countries also agree.

bridgetoc Mon 20-Jun-16 07:32:03

Your right Mango, and as we all know, those concessions amount to nothing. Even staunch Tory remainers admit this! We must vote brexit.......

MangosteenSoda Mon 20-Jun-16 07:39:38

No. Those concessions are legally binding and mean that the UK can opt out of any further political union, should it happen. We can add that to our other opt outs - no Euro, no Schengen. We have a special status in the EU. We would be foolish to throw it away.

Join the discussion

Join the discussion

Registering is free, easy, and means you can join in the discussion, get discounts, win prizes and lots more.

Register now