What's best for the next generation?

[HeckyWithTheGoodBear]

I really can't make up my mind on this one. It's the first time I've ever been able to vote (except from the last general election which I missed as I was in a postnatal daze and feel awful about as I can't complain about the Tories without feeling guilty) and it seems like this vote in particular is massively massively important - and ever so slightly overwhelming, and difficult as the two sides say specifically contradictory things.

Even in the official leaflet they put through my door, one side of the page said the EU costs us £++ and the other side said EU gave us £++. Most of us don't have economics/ politics PHD's so how is your average joe supposed to figure out who is telling the truth? I'm getting swayed every day.

But my main concern is what will be best for my baby DD, and any future children I go on to have. Lord knows the last generation has fucked everything up for me and my peers (in regards to housing, uni fees etc.). So what is the best decision for our children, IYO? Which decision means they are most likely to get a house, and a job, and a fair wage?

[Turbinaria]

Controlled points based immigration whereby we get the people with the skills we need. Less pressure on schools means we can use the extra resources to improve their education whereby they will be able to compete with the rest of the world. Less pressure on land and housing means not the continual double digit rises in yearly house prices. Less pressure on NHS means your dcs can access a doctor when they need them not in 3 weeks time.
The Increases in GDP arguments by David Cameron mean little to me. An extra £20 in my pocket a week does not compensate for the reduced quality in my life of being overcrowded, struggling to get my dcs into my preferred school, struggling to access healthcare and seeing a gradual decline of the British culture/ values and way of life.

[Kennington]

Anything that puts cheaper affordable housing at the top of the agenda.
I don't see how the next generation will manage either in private or social housing.
I genuinely think our children are being set up to suffer long term.

[HeckyWithTheGoodBear]

I think I'm leaning towards leave at the moment, but it's so hard.

Anything that puts cheaper affordable housing at the top of the agenda.

And which choice do you think makes this more likely?

[HeckyWithTheGoodBear]

Bold fail, sorry.

[Winterbiscuit]

If future generations are going to have a full and democratic say in the laws which will affect them, I think leaving the EU is the way to go.

[Kummerspeck]

I think anyone that claims to have a straight answer to this is deluded or lying as nobody knows and there is no precedent on which to base predictions so one guess is probably as good as the other

My own feeling is that Europe is changing fast due to immigration leading to the rise of the right wing; pressure on health, services and education; security and policing issues; anti-semitism and a reduction in women's and LGBT rights and freedoms as people are increasingly harassed by men of different cultures. I am concerned that a vote to stay is not a vote for the Europe we know now so I would be prepared to take some short term financial pain in order to avoid those risks

Yesterday The Times had an article in which Jean Claude Juncker said the EU would refuse to work with any right wing or populist government in order to isolate and marginalise them. (Sorry can't link because of the paywall). In effect the unelected EU powers would undermine any government of whose views they do not approve, regardless of the fact they were legitimately elected. I find that very worrying

I'm not 100% sure yet but think for the above reasons I am leaning towards Out

[ThroughThickAndThin01]

I thnk leave is better for my dc. I think short term pain (economically, possibly a year) for long term gain.

[HeckyWithTheGoodBear]

Really interesting points, thank you.

[DorynownotFloundering]

Well just as a counterpoint 😃

Most of the complaints above are due to mismanagement by successive governments TBH. Not convinced the money we pay into the EU will be channel led into schools & NHS etc so no guarantees. Also for our kids mobility in & out of the EU for both education & work will not be as good as now. Not really pro staying but think the advantages outweigh the disadvantages, given no concrete figures have been put forward for leaving because no one knows !!

[Palehorse]

I thnk leave is better for my dc. I think short term pain (economically, possibly a year) for long term gain.

Well the ifs said today that brexit will mean short term pain for er, well, long term pain too. IMF broadly agrees

[Turbinaria]

I look at my own life now I'm in my late forties and I feel very fortunate and I look at what my dcs have to look forward to and really fear for them.

1. I went to university with no tuition fees and a maintenance grant which I could live on
   
2. my friends who didn't have qualifications still got jobs which they could progress in
   
3. I bought my house 20 years ago for 3 times my annual salary and I had money left to live and enjoy myself
   
4. I have never had problems getting a job in my sphere of work and am pretty secure in my post but my younger colleagues are having to compete with a much larger pool of people for jobs
   
5. I have a final salary pension
   
6. when my dcs were babies I must have been in my GPs surgery every week with something and I never had a problem getting an appointment within 48 hours

[ThroughThickAndThin01]

I don't agree Palehorse'the IMF spokesman on radio 4 didn't seem to know his arse from his elbow. His parameters of figures were ridiculous alomg the lines of "well it could be Armageddon, but more likely it could be ok"

[Turbinaria]

I think working in the eu is and will always be mainly dependent on whether you can speak the required language and have the skills the employer is looking for. You still need to speak fluent French if you want to be a waiter in France because that is an essential criteria of the job just being part of the eu does not entitle you to a job. I think we should focus more on our dcs learning a foreign language properly in schools.

[jellyjiggles]

I wish I knew the answer to this! Like everyone a crystal ball would be really handy now.

I'm leaning towards leaving as well. It's a hell of a risk and it frightens me but we'd have freedom to pull ourselves out of the shit instead of being shackled to a huge groaning slow moving European Parliament.

My understanding is in the next ten years the EU want to add Turkey. They want to have one law for everyone. They already pass laws on the most insignificant things. Classification of foods and household items seem silly to me.

I don't think we hold enough power in the EU to make a big enough difference. If we stay we will basically have to do as were told and our population will skyrocket. London and the South East are full!

I also don't want my taxes to go towards holding up the Italian or French pension schemes. If we have to put any more money into Greece I might scream. I don't want to be paying for Joe Bloggs in Istanbul to help him get an education while my children are in massive debt on leaving University. I want the people who come to work in this country to be of value. To be skilled useful workers without a criminal record.

Leaving will make working with Europe more complicated but it will free us up to compete with the rest of the worlds economy. Our fisherman won't be subject to ridiculously wasteful fishing rules. They will be able to fish where they like. We will be open for trade with the world.

Trade with Europe won't suddenly stop. We will remain a member of NATO and the UN.

We will survive because we've got British grit, determination and ingenuity. Our future is in green energy and technology. We have the knowledge we just need to nurture it and work hard for our country!

[SpringingIntoAction]

But my main concern is what will be best for my baby DD, and any future children I go on to have. Lord knows the last generation has fucked everything up for me and my peers (in regards to housing, uni fees etc.). So what is the best decision for our children, IYO? Which decision means they are most likely to get a house, and a job, and a fair wage?

My 29 year old - unmarried, post-graduate, renting is voting OUT.

You asked specifically about the ability to get a house , a job and a fair wage.

While we are in the EU every one of its 550 million EU citizens has the right to live and work in any part of the EU.

The UK has a high level of living, good health and social care and high wages compared to many other countries in the EU. That attracts EU citizens from poorer countries to move to the richer countries, like the UK. As the next batch of very poor countries, such as Albania, Macedonia, Bosnia, Serbia etc all join the EU that situation will continue.

Over 2m EU citizens have come to live and work in the UK in the last few years. They all need somewhere to live. That demand for housing keeps rents high and house prices high. Cameron has already said that if we leave the EU house prices may fall. Fewer EU migrants would mean less demand for housing and rents.

My 29 year old would like to get a home to live in one day as he knows he will not be able to raise a family in the bedroom in the shared house he currently lives in. He knows that if EU migration continues at its current rate the possibility of him finding affordable accommodation is reduced.

We have 1.6million people unemployed in the UK but are also adding an additional 360,000 immigrants to the UK population each year of which around 180,000 come from other EU countries. They will fill jobs that could be done by the unemployed UK citizens if employers were prepared to invest in training them to be able to do the job.

Instead, training budgets have been cut as employers find they can just buy in trained staff. In the UK students have to pay up to £9K per year intuition fees plus maintenance costs. The enormous student loans they accrue during 2 years of undergraduate study mean that few are likely to go on to post-graduate study. In other EU countries education costs are lower or even free. This is leading to a disparity between some UK students and some other students from EU countries.

And because there are hundreds of thousands of EU migrants seeking work, wages are depressed. Low wages and high housing costs do not help the average UK worker. Lord Rose, who leads the official REMAIN campaign Britain Stronger in Europe admitted that if we left the EU wages would rise.

The simple laws of supply and demand mean that when something is plentiful it's value decreases (labour and wages) and when something is scare its value increases (houses and accommodation costs).

We also need to consider the effect of hundreds of thousands of EU migrants coming to the Uk each and every year while we are in the Eu and need to start building the homes, hospitals and schools they will need because at present the Govt is just expecting these additional people to squeeze into existing accommodation, schools and health services which is having an adverse effect on everyone.

[jellyjiggles]

Spring I think you make some really valid points. I am in my 30's and a lot of my friends/colleagues are pointing to leave. My understanding from my parents generation who are 65+ is they all want to leave.

Those who want to stay want stability.

[Kummerspeck]

Jelly I said upthread that I'm not sure stability is on offer as I don't think Europe is looking very stable with or without us. I just hope that people don't realise that too late (or that I'm wrong)

[Turbinaria]

The thing is OP if we were to remain we don't know what's going to happen and same if we leave. The ones who want stability by staying in the eu are thinking the eu will not change and yet all the evidence is pointing to inclusion of more poorer countries with troubled recent histories whose economies are basket cases and make Greece look highly efficient and ever closer union with the loss of sovereignty.

I personally want to the ability to retain our sovereignty and determine our own fate. When we decided not to join the euro we had stories of the apocalypse raining on our heads and now it's worked fantastically in our favour. No I don't know what's going to happen if we leave but I have the confidence, optimism and hope that the people of Britain will rise up magnificently to the challenge.

[SpringingIntoAction]

Those who want to stay want stability.

Unfortunately stability is not on offer.

The EU is growing and will continue to grow.

Croatians gain free movement in 2018 and many of that population of 4.29 people may decide to come to the UK.

In the wings are the next batch of countries that will join the EU. These are poor countries, Albania, Macedonia, Bosnia, Serbia, Montenegro, and downstream, Turkey. One day all those populations may have the right to live and work in the UK. Meanwhile, the EU is spending billions of our tax payers money bringing those countries up to a state of readiness to join the EU.

The EU is also grooming Ukraine with billions of Euros every year and has already managed to get the Ukrainians to overthrow their anti joining the EU, Government in favour of a pro-EU Govt. It worries me that the EU is so determined to expand that it is placing itself in direct conflict with Russia - while telling us what a terrible person Putin is. I think we are being groomed here too.

The best thing for any child is to be brought up and to live as an adult in a country that can make its own laws, free from interference of the EU but working in cooperation with all our allies throughout the world.

[HeckyWithTheGoodBear]

Thanks everyone, this was exactly the kind of information I was after. I will of course watch the debates etc. but I think voting to leave seems to be the best choice at the moment.

[GhostofFrankGrimes]

I look at my own life now I'm in my late forties and I feel very fortunate and I look at what my dcs have to look forward to and really fear for them.
1) I went to university with no tuition fees and a maintenance grant which I could live on

New Labour introduced tuition fees. The Tories have continued them.

2) my friends who didn't have qualifications still got jobs which they could progress in

Globalisation and the decline of British industry have helped contribute to this.


3) I bought my house 20 years ago for 3 times my annual salary and I had money left to live and enjoy myself

Houses are seen as investments/commodities rather than homes pushing prices up.

4) I have never had problems getting a job in my sphere of work and am pretty secure in my post but my younger colleagues are having to compete with a much larger pool of people for jobs

that companies/businesses will see as a positive.

5) I have a final salary pension

You can blame corporate greed and/or government meddling for poorer pension prospects

6) when my dcs were babies I must have been in my GPs surgery every week with something and I never had a problem getting an appointment within 48 hours

Do you not think decades of government meddling may with the NHS may have contributed to that?

So in conclusion most of your concerns are not caused by the EU.

[MuddledMuse]

OP, thank you for starting this thread. It's the sort of conversation we should be having. I'm a member of the older generation, but I had no say in how things have developed over the last few decades and seeing younger members of our society struggling with high house prices, costly higher education, increased competition for jobs etc causes me great concern, not least because I have children of my own. All my friends feel the same.

I want to vote for what's best for the younger generations, truly I do, but I'm really struggling with sorting out fact from fiction. One of the issues which has baffled me is this idea that the people already living in the UK ( whether indigenous or not) are so lazy, unmotivated, uneducated and unskilled that businesses have no option but to hire people from abroad, whether that be from the EU or elsewhere. I'm firmly of the view that isn't the case.

Obviously, there are some highly desirable individuals outside the UK, and if they are genuinely better than what is available here, then that's fine. However, I strongly suspect that in many cases, the reason business employ people from abroad, is that they can get away with paying less, and the reason they want to do that, is because that makes more profit for owners/ shareholders. Hence the ever widening gap. We should be developing our own doctors, nurses etc. why the hell aren't we doing that?

I honestly can't believe that "stealing" the best of the best from other EU countries, or even stealing their youngsters whatever their abilities, is good for those countries.

Another thing I struggle with is this idea that employment rights will vanish if we leave the EU. Setting aside the historical fact that the UK has always been at the forefront of developing such rights, I would argue that some of them are not as brilliant as they might appear. As an oldie, I can tell you that stress levels seem to be much higher in my profession than they were in the past. The working hours directive protect workers from working too long hours - except it doesn't, as many workers are required to opt out of those protections. Ask someone in the legal profession. Ask someone in the hospitality industry.

I don't know what to do for the best. Am I just hankering after a past that never existed, as someone has suggested about pro-leavers this site? Are the issues we face down to the EU, or is our own government largely to blame? Will things improve whatever we do, or are we in trouble whatever we do. I'm reading everything I can and hopefully it will all make sense in the end!

[Turbinaria]

Uncontrolled Eu Immigration mostly low skilled people from poorer countries will mean more competition for housing, school/ university places, jobs, healthcare overcrowding, higher taxes to pay for it all, lower wages with poorer job security and pension provision. Increased tensions within communities and social unrest with the people leading parallel lives with minimal interactions with each other.

As I see it mine and my children's lifestyles will have to be lowered in order to raise those of people and their dcs from poorer countries.

[SpringingIntoAction]

I agree with your sentiments MuddledMuse.

The concept of an Eu of free movement of people and services would be fantastic - IF- and it is a big IF - all the participating countries were roughly the same standard, so that populations didn't feel they had to move from poorer EU member countries to righer countries in search of work or a better standrd of living.

It's now pretty much acknowledged that the Euro is a failed currency experiment in which rich countries like Germany cannot co-exit with poor countries like Greece.

The same applies to free movement - you cannot keep expecting the richer countries to take more and more EU migrants into their economies without it having an adverse effect on their own habitually resident domestic population and on the countries from which those EU migrants departed.

Poland is now experiencing many problems as result of de-population and is actively trying to get many of its ex-pat population to return to build the Polish economy.

We should be training our own professionals instead of importing ready-trained migrants. Our failure to do so is denying our own youth the opportunities to gain the skills that the older generation have.It's actually shameful and immoral.

[MuddledMuse]

Springing, I don't always agree with what you say, but I do agree with your last post.