Do we want an EU Army?

(183 Posts)
SpringingIntoAction Mon 02-May-16 17:52:51

The President of the European Commission has said that he wants an EU Army

President Junckers said:

“You would not create a European army to use it immediately,” Juncker told the Welt am Sonntag newspaper in Germany in an interview published on Sunday.

“But a common army among the Europeans would convey to Russia that we are serious about defending the values of the European Union.”

www.theguardian.com/world/2015/mar/08/jean-claude-juncker-calls-for-eu-army-european-commission-miltary

Former British Army commander Col Richard Kemp warned against the UK joining an EU army, saying it would be giving up our country's right to self-defence

www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/04/02/uk-would-give-up-right-to-self-defence-if-forced-to-join-europea/

The telegraph reports that Mrs Merkel has a blueprint to create a European Army and may use this in a bargaining point with the UK

www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/eu/11861247/Merkel-expects-Cameron-to-back-EU-army-in-exchange-for-renegotiation.html

Tony Blair today called for a European Army

www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3401145/Tony-Blair-insists-Europe-needs-integration-revives-calls-European-army-way-confront-terror-threat-ISIS.html

The EU is already involved in military operations

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Military_operations_of_the_European_Union

The EU has a military training mission to Mail

www.theguardian.com/world/2016/mar/21/eus-military-mission-mali-attacked

and in the Central African Republic

www.consilium.europa.eu/en/press/press-releases/2015/03/16-central-african-republic-eu-military-advisory-mission-gets-green-light/

It's clear the EU sees itself as much more than merely a trading organisation.

It's not just aiming for political union, but also to be become an influential military force - that is not under democratic control.

I don;t want to be part of a military bloc and political union, masquerading as a trade organisation. I want out of all that.

A4Document Tue 03-May-16 08:27:40

I don;t want to be part of a military bloc and political union, masquerading as a trade organisation. I want out of all that.

Yes. It's time to walk away from the EU and the way it's irriversibly heading.

The UK's armed forces are superb and there's no good reason why we should wish to amalgamate them into an "EU army".

MyHovercraftIsFullOfEels Tue 03-May-16 15:46:24

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

SpringingIntoAction Tue 03-May-16 22:01:22

An EU army might actually be a good thing, although not as a replacement for our own armies.

Think that one through.

Where will this EU army acquire its military capabilities from?
Who will pay for these?
How will they become integrated withe the existing EU member/NATO capabiilties?
Who will control tis EU Army?
In what circumstances would it be deployed?
Where will its soldiers and military staff come from?
Why does the EU want its own army?

There is no way the EU is going to let its 28 member countries keep their own armies - they could be used against the EU's own army.

No, this 'EU army' will be comprised of the unified armed forces across all member states.
It will weaken/prevent our security pact via NATO, making us less safe
It would prevent our ability to access Five Eyes - which would become Four Eyes with us excluded - which would make us less safe
And on.. and on... and on

It's irrelevant though, because it's not going to happen...

That's what Nick Clegg said - just before President Junckers called for an EU army

www.theguardian.com/world/2015/mar/08/jean-claude-juncker-calls-for-eu-army-european-commission-miltary

and what the EU wants - the EU gets.

The EU is already getting some practise in.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Military_operations_of_the_European_Union

The EU is one big protectionist racket - it receives payments from tits member countries - both in membership fees and when we trade. The EU must protect its protection racket - with its own Army.

And as this protection racket has been so enriching for the EU it will want to expand the scope of its EU empire and will probably end up in conflict with another power - hence the need for an EU Army to be able to expand the EU by force if necessary.

There will be an EU Army.

Another good reason to LEAVE

MyHovercraftIsFullOfEels Tue 03-May-16 22:05:36

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

SpringingIntoAction Tue 03-May-16 22:13:00

Or, as the bit you didn't quote said;

"*It's irrelevant though, because it's not going to happen...*"

It's already starting to happen.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/I._German/Dutch_Corps

Andrew Neil was Tweeting about it today

twitter.com/afneil/status/727382432157171712?lang=en-gb

Germany delays white paper calling for push towards European army including joint headquarters + shared military assets, until after June 23

You won't see that in the Gruniard - they don't want to frighten the horses.

SpringingIntoAction Tue 03-May-16 22:14:07

FT also running the EU army call

www.ft.com/cms/s/0/e90a080e-107b-11e6-91da-096d89bd2173.html#axzz47d69aGHe

MyHovercraftIsFullOfEels Tue 03-May-16 22:41:15

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

SpringingIntoAction Tue 03-May-16 22:46:44

Yawn Yes, someone wants that to happen. However, there are rather more people who don't, ergo it's not going to happen..

That's a big crystal ball you have. it may need a polish, it's starting to become unreliable.

Winterbiscuit Tue 03-May-16 23:07:43

It's irrelevant though, because it's not going to happen

There's no guarantee of that at all. It could well happen, slowly and stealthily, like other gradual changes which the UK never wanted but have happened anyway.

It may be used as a bargaining point, so that countries that don't want it, will be offered other things in return for agreeing to an EU army.

Merkel 'expects Cameron to back EU army' in exchange for renegotiation

NATO should beware of the European army

SpringingIntoAction Tue 03-May-16 23:14:38

It's irrelevant though, because it's not going to happen

When an EUphile tells you that - you can be pretty sure it will happen.

I

MyHovercraftIsFullOfEels Wed 04-May-16 13:29:37

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

SpringingIntoAction Wed 04-May-16 14:10:58

I think we have identified a new demographic

EU-deniers.

People who will tell you it's not happening - while you can see it is happening to you.

On the Relationship board they call this Gaslighting.

MyHovercraftIsFullOfEels Wed 04-May-16 14:14:45

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

SpringingIntoAction Wed 04-May-16 21:31:03

The Eu has a common Security and defence policy that calls for a progressive common defence

www.europarl.europa.eu/atyourservice/en/displayFtu.html?ftuId=FTU_6.1.2.html

Ignore this at your peril.

Winterbiscuit Wed 04-May-16 23:26:20

I'm pretty sure it would be impossible to take over 28 sovereign nations armies without anyone noticing!

Juncker has said (of the euro, but you can see the aim of change that no-one will notice)

“We decide on something, leave it lying around and wait and see what happens. If no one kicks up a fuss, because most people don’t understand what has been decided, we continue step by step until there is no turning back.”

and

“If it’s a Yes, we will say ‘on we go’, and if it’s a No we will say ‘we continue’.”

Looks like undemocratic stealth to me. The EU has its goals, and it seems they hope that if they move the ratchet slowly enough no-one will notice, and if anyone does, they'll carry on regardless.

scaryteacher Wed 04-May-16 23:48:08

Winter and Springing suggest you read up on the Berlin plus agreements which specify what the EU can do militarily if NATO doesn't wish to act. NATO has first dibs on acting.

This has been kicking around the bazaars here in Brussels for a decade at least now, and no action has happened. As for the EUMS; they write papers and have meetings, and meeting, and more meetings, and another meeting. The EU and the member states can't and won't afford the money necessary to stand up EU armed forces. The UK won't join...they are HM Forces, their allegiance is to the Queen.

Winterbiscuit Wed 04-May-16 23:52:39

they are HM Forces, their allegiance is to the Queen.

Long may they continue.

MyHovercraftIsFullOfEels Thu 05-May-16 00:09:10

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

Winterbiscuit Thu 05-May-16 00:12:01

Angela Merkel seems to think it will change, as she has been using it as a bargaining tool with Cameron.

LovingLuna Thu 05-May-16 00:16:38

The EU seems more and more like star wars by the day.

MyHovercraftIsFullOfEels Thu 05-May-16 00:35:50

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

SpringingIntoAction Thu 05-May-16 00:50:24

And only an idiot would think that would change!

Ah, welcome Hover. Strolled along to dish out more personal abuse. How tedious.

SpringingIntoAction Thu 05-May-16 00:52:10

The EU seems more and more like star wars by the day

It's actually quite similar to the plot of the most recent James Bond film where they are trying to abolish the British spying agency and replace it with a pan-European one. James Bond fought off that idea grin

SpringingIntoAction Thu 05-May-16 01:01:24

Winter and Springing suggest you read up on the Berlin plus agreements which specify what the EU can do militarily if NATO doesn't wish to act. NATO has first dibs on acting.

That's the situation now. Here's the future

eeas.europa.eu/csdp/about-csdp/index_en.htm

This has been kicking around the bazaars here in Brussels for a decade at least now, and no action has happened.

Doesn't mean it won't.

The EU is already flexing its military force

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Military_operations_of_the_European_Union

As for the EUMS; they write papers and have meetings, and meeting, and more meetings, and another meeting. The EU and the member states can't and won't afford the money necessary to stand up EU armed forces. The UK won't join...they are HM Forces, their allegiance is to the Queen.

They might not get the choice. You can't have 28 armies all with allegiances to different Heads of State when you have a single EU army.

www.ft.com/cms/s/0/e90a080e-107b-11e6-91da-096d89bd2173.html#axzz47jclCBd6

Cameron may not want the UK armed force to be part of it but the next UK PM could just write to the EU and offer to join. I could imagine a PM like Corbyn doing that.

That's why i don't want to allow a future PM that option - that's why I want to LEAVE

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