Do I tell?

(254 Posts)
StarryCole Tue 29-May-12 00:32:54

I have a moral dilemma. Please bear with me as I really need your strength to do the right thing. Last summer. We were at my PIL's house. Only family there and what I mean by this is my husband's parents and his siblings only. Summer BBQ. I felt it a safe environment. My son, aged 3.5, is very active, likes to run around the house and garden and playing with various members of family. I didn't think he was in any danger. I thought I knew my husband's family well, we had been together 8 years. I thought it was safe.

My husband's 15 year old brother, I will call him Alan, exposed himself to my son, It was an opportunist moment. My son alone in Alan's bedroom for a brief time.
We were all downstairs doing the family thing, it did cross my mind where my son was but I didn't think anything of it. Nor did my husband, whose brother it was. Imagine your son or daughter with your brother or sister, together playing alone in a room for the briefest of moments?.

Later on, my son told me Uncle Alan sat him on his bed. Uncle Alan pulled his trousers and underpants and exposed himself. My son told me this in enough detail and I was utterly shocked. It was enough for me to call the police.

Much emotional turmoil between myself, my husband and his parents. It was I that instigated the involvement with the police. Alan's parents were reluctant and very protective. They still are.

Co-incidentally, Alan was pulled up by the police on an seperate issue, at about the same time. The police was monitoring him because he was cruising websites of a NAPPY fetish nature and participating in 'chats' online. He came to the attention of the police as in one of the chats, Alan mentioned he had a toddler nephew, my son. My son was wearing nappies at the time. Till this day, I do not know the contents of the chats nor the actual sites he was on. I can only guess....

The police let Alan off with the privisio he does therapy. Alan being only 15 at the time, his mental state..the risks and being from a supportive home. The police do not view Alan as dangerous. Alan is back at school and living at home.

Fast forward 1 year to today, and my husband's other brother Roger (brother to Alan as well) and his wife announced they are expecting their first child.

My PIL's had sworn us to secrecy. Although we never promised to keep quiet if another member of the family had a child. It is both I and my husband's moral thinking, Roger and his wife ought to be told, to empower them to protect their child.

My PILs, particularly, my FIL has threatened me that if I said anything, 'a big thing would come between us' i.e., I would be ousted in their eyes. They don't deem Alan as dangerous and they don't want any 'trouble' least all by me, least of all as Alan is 'sitting his exams at the moment'. They are being very threatening and we had a heated and serious disagreement. They are extremely protective of Alan, being young impressionable and probably prone to depression.
Any mention of my son and I get 'he'll not remember in a few years', 'nothing worse happened, he's hardly been affected'.

I believe Roger and his wife ought to know for the right reasons. As a parent first and foremost and for the safety of their child. Roger and his wife are good people, very responsible. I'm sure they would understand and be mature about it, like we have been. Alan is a 'good boy' in every other respect and is taking therapy.

Both myself and my husband are being pressured and threatened by my ILs. I know my PILs will never forgive me in particular - even if I said and did nothing 'being the woman/wife'.

Please, let me know your views. What would you do? And imagine this in your own family. Your son/daughter and brother or sister.

Thank you.

NatashaBee Tue 29-May-12 00:38:02

Fuck being 'ousted'. I would tell, without hesitation. Are they not monitoring Alan to the extent that a new baby in the family might raise concerns anyway?

I would have to tell.

The adult's feelings are less important than the protection of the child(ren).

(I have a list of opinions as long as your arm on the PIL and the entire situation btw but too tired to get into that right now)

StarryCole Tue 29-May-12 00:46:13

HugeFurryWishingStool - I would love to hear your opinion on this. I hope you come back soon.

Rindercella Tue 29-May-12 00:47:44

In your shoes I would, together with my DH, tell Roger and his wife. Alan's parents protecting him are effectively putting their own grandchildren at risk. I personally could not condone that, nor could I knowingly put another child potentially at risk.

It is great that their son is receiving therapy. However, his actions in the past cannot be undone. Roger and his wife have every right to know this happened. Your PIL may well go apeshit when they find out, but so be it. How bloody dare they try and bully you into keeping this secret in the closet.

I agree that they need to know but would be very careful as your inlaws would clearly blame you for passing the information on. I'd try to leave it to your DH to deal with, as much as possible.

It may well be that the younger brother is 'cured', for want of a better expression, but what if...?

DaisyMaisyJessicaEmily Tue 29-May-12 00:58:11

Yes tell. Without a doubt.

bitbewildered Tue 29-May-12 01:00:53

Tell them. Can't actually believe you're asking.

Whatnamethistime Tue 29-May-12 01:01:09

TELL.

Jacksmania Tue 29-May-12 01:35:53

I think your DH should tell his older brother.

What does he (your DH) think?

1950sHousewife Tue 29-May-12 01:41:58

It is for your DH to tell. If he doesn't, he is the biggest most cowardly man on the planet.
How dare your ILs tell you to keep this enormous, life changing secret from someone who would want to know this kind of thing.
If he doesn't, you have to. But if he doesn't, I would reconsider how much respect I would be able to have for a man who didn't.

Imagine if anything happened. Just imagine. You and DH would be just as guilty as the ILs.

It's not even a dilemma IMO. Having been a victim of abuse from a relative I am horrified you are even thinking here is even half an ounce of doubt about this.

Imagine if it was the other way round, and it was Roger's child he'd exposed himself to, and you were the one who was now expecting your first child. Would you expect Roger and his wife to tell you?

thelittlestkiwi Tue 29-May-12 02:33:41

I would get your DH to tell his brother and ask him not to let on he knows if at all possible.

I'd also be putting a bit of distance between my family and the IL's. Btw, it's nice down here in NZ ;-)

scripsi Tue 29-May-12 02:48:34

tell.

Fourlegged Tue 29-May-12 03:20:09

DH should tell - and it can be on a - don't tell PILs basis

Today he is just showing, surfing the net, chatting because he is 15

Soon it could be more than that

Personally if I was the SIL and something happened to my child because of Alan I would hold you partially responsible

And the PILs are arses. They are burying their heads in their sand - he is not a good boy. HE should be ousted (although it's good they encourage the therapy). They are just as bad as him

I hope they are suffering with guilt

MrsSquirrel Tue 29-May-12 11:45:25

Yes of course you should tell. As others have said, if it were me who was expecting, I would want to know.

Your PIL are treating you terribly, pressurising you and threatening you. What difference does it make that Alan is sitting exams? confused The baby hasn't even been born yet. Sounds like emotional blackmail.

I would want to distance myself from the PIL for treating me and DH that way. Complete lack of respect.

Also lack of respect/care for your son - 'he'll not remember in a few years', 'nothing worse happened, he's hardly been affected'. Sorry, but they can't know that.

StarryCole Tue 29-May-12 18:18:30

Thanks everyone for your supportive messages. REALLY APPRECIATE your responses. What's interesting is that so far, all of you agree that this sort of family issue should not be kept in the closet.

My DH has stepped up and will speak to his parents now. He too feels action needs to be taken but is more likely to be 'forgiven' given that he is their son. I am going to stay out of this now but will keep a close eye on things.

If DH & I get anymore pressures, I am going to vote with my feet and distance myself because I cannot be involved with a family that has those sort of undesirable 'values'.

StarryCole Tue 29-May-12 18:24:42

One more thing about Alan. Does this mean he's a peodophile? Given his 'peadophilia tendancies'? And take into account his impressionable age at the time of the 'incident', just 15 years old. Would you ever trust him again? And do you think there is ever a possibility people like him can be cured?

If you're a pyschotherapist or sexual counselling expert that work with the likes of Alan, I'd especially like to hear your experienced opinion. Thanks!!

cantfindamnnickname Tue 29-May-12 18:32:38

I am presuming that as the police were involved they have kept records on him and are monitoring his behaviour and compliance with therapy?

His he on the Children Services radar? Did they have any contact with you at the time? Is it worth contacting them and expressing your concerns - it may be they are already aware

Has his therapist been advised of the new addition? He needs to explore this in therapy I think.

BodyOfEeyore Tue 29-May-12 18:35:27

Without a doubt, you should say something. A man exposed himself to me when I was four. He also pulled my hand towards him and tried to get me to touch him. I can still picture him in my head and hear his voice, thirty years on.

It has affected my relationships with men.

PinkChampagneandStrawberries Tue 29-May-12 18:35:38

Sorry but you have to tell them

blueglue Tue 29-May-12 18:37:18

Tell them, definitely. Wouldn't care if Alan was in therapy or not, crazy to leave any child alone with him ever given what's hapened. Your BIL and SIL need to know this. Why do PILs need to know - can't you ask BIL and SIL not to tell them you have told them about Alan?

CoteDAzur Tue 29-May-12 18:43:49

Definitely tell. What if something happens? They would never forgive you for not having warned them in advance, and you would never forgive yourself.

lardylump Tue 29-May-12 18:45:59

tell them

BaDaBing Tue 29-May-12 18:51:48

Without hesitation I would tell BIL. I would be concerned about your PILs controlling behaviour an doubt that they have fully grasped the level of danger Alan could pose. I would not be leaving my children unsupervised in their company.

MrsGuyOfGisbourne Tue 29-May-12 18:52:23

Tell. No question. If it turns out was a temporary aberration with Alan and your son, it is only his brother you are telling, but of course they need to know.

bishboschone Tue 29-May-12 19:00:51

I think it's really really odd that a 15 year old has exposed himself to a toddler boy .. Is he a normal boy in other ways .. I. E not special needs or anything ? Did he understand what he was doing? If so he sounds potentially very dangerous ( please note , I am not a hysterical type , I just find it really odd that a 15 yr old would do this .

bishboschone Tue 29-May-12 19:03:57

Ps , yes tell them . I had an uncle who was very keen on tickling . Harmless enough but it was too much if you see what I mean . When I was around 18 and we were alone he said to me '' if I were you get I would take you over there and rape you '' ... Yes his exact words . I never spoke to him again and told all other family members to never leave their children alone with him . I never told then the reason but made it obvious he was dangerous . I would never forgive myself if he did something inappropriate and I hadn't spoken to them .

itdoesnthurttohavemanners Tue 29-May-12 19:07:11

You have to tell.

Being nosey, but does he have any SEN issues this younger brother? It does sound otherwise like a VERY concerning thing for a nonSEN child to do...

Regardless. Tell them. Secrets like this cannot be kept.

LoopyLoopsCorgiPoops Tue 29-May-12 19:12:35

Also don't think it's really a dilemma. You have to tell them.

Lose the PIL, they sound toxic.

I would tell. But also, "Alan", is probably not a pedophile and the chances are good that it was a one off, part of sexually developing. With help and growing up he may be as baffled as us as to why he did it. However there is a small chance that he is sexually aroused by small children, and therefore it seems more than reasonable to tell his own brother the facts.

ghosteditor Tue 29-May-12 19:18:41

I think they absolutely have to be told; you now have to figure out the most appropriate way of doing it. I think it's sensible for your DH to tell them, but I think you should be prepared for your PILS to blame that decision on you anyway.

Whether or not Alan is in therapy and now realises his inappropriate behaviour, he showed exceptionally poor judgement and should not be left alone with a child. It's up to your brother in law and his wife to decide how it will affect their relationship with Alan - but they have to know!

Keep us updated on how it pans out!

Slambang Tue 29-May-12 19:19:21

Agree tell.

Dh must tell them. You don't need to say anything. If he feels the need to, he can say to Roger don't let the parents know I've spoken to you. If it was me I'd have a chat with SIL as well and just warn her never ever leave Alan alone with the baby especially not allowing him to change nappies.

Is he a paedophile or has paedophile tendencies - well what's the difference really? Can therapy help? Yes. But not certainly enough to ever let Alan be trusted with a child.

eatyourveg Tue 29-May-12 19:23:55

Tell. Presumably the PIL have not mentioned to Alan's own siblings that he is receiving therapy. Why not? Most siblings would want to support their own brother, he obviously needs help and by your BIL not being informed of the situation, their baby is knowingly being put at risk potentially.

DogEared Tue 29-May-12 19:31:49

Your DH must tell.
Also, I just wanted to say that I'm really sorry that you've been put in this horrible situation. sad It must be so difficult for you. Your priority is your son but this is your husband's brother... I can't imagine how difficult it must be for you to see your brother-in-law.

Springforward Tue 29-May-12 19:35:46

Tell them, Alan should not be left alone with young children, therapy or not.

Heyyyho Tue 29-May-12 19:52:49

This boy/man sounds seriously disturbed. He should not be around children.

Absolutely 100% tell them. They have a right to protect their child.
PIL sound awful, really in denial about such a serious matter.

EddieIzzardIsMine Tue 29-May-12 20:01:23

Rare I've seen a thread where everyone is in absolute agreement

But I'll add to it with in your non-enviable position, yes I'd tell them/support DH telling them too

SweetGrapes Tue 29-May-12 20:16:56

Absolutely tell. Just think if something hapenned...

PIL are not thinking straight. They are effectively putting gc in potential danger.

feedthegoat Tue 29-May-12 21:19:28

Unfortunately I can imagine this in my family as I have had a similar (though different to yours) situation to deal with. I have name changed to an old name i no longer use as this outs me to anyone who knows us.

Dh's brother was arrested on child porn charges. He was suspended from his job (primary teacher). Dh told his family that his brother could not see our dc until we knew what had happened and they reacted pretty much like yours.

Our lives were made hell for the 2 years he was on bail and later remand and we have repeatedly been told that us and only us are responsible for the entire situation. He is now in prison for a number of years (porn and grooming charges) and pil still state he poses no threat to our dc and should be allowed a normal relationship and we are utterly in the wrong. I hasten to add that we weren't hysterical and didn't demand that anyone else should do the same or scream for blood, we just didn't want him in contact with our child. We still feel this is the appropriate and correct response.

We tried to keep contact with dc for a while but they did it a couple of time a year and used it as another opportunity to list our 'crimes'. Some of the things they have said about us and in particular my family who have done and said absolutely nothing are now beyond forgiveness for me. As cannot trust them not to say things to dc (they have said things in past), be even civil to us or use my dc to prove they trust their son then we are are no longer in contact at all.

The whole thing has been a nightmare but we've both said we've done the only thing we could. I know how you feel (and want to send you a hug, I've needed plenety in the last few years!) but think you know what you should do. Just be aware what it may cost and be prepared.

Floggingmolly Tue 29-May-12 21:22:41

Tell them. Where does your DH stand on this?

Killergerbil Tue 29-May-12 21:25:27

You know that you have to tell them, if the roles reversed - you would need them to tell you

Mama1980 Tue 29-May-12 21:28:10

Tell them you'd never forgive yourself of you didn't and something happened and they'd never forgive you. One off or not they need to be told. Protecting a child is more important than any consequences.

StarryCole Tue 29-May-12 22:54:11

Thank you all for your responses. My husband agrees full disclosure to his brother Roger but requested he handles this himself and will wait until after Alan completed his exams and after Roger's baby arrives (in November).

I'm preparing myself for the massive backlash to come from my PILs and know it will be me, not my husband as the scapegoat here since it has always been to me wanting to put things on the record and demanded this reported to the police in the first place. I'm hoping we can all be mature about this but in anycase, I think my relationship with PILs is irreversibly damaged now (in their eyes).

Also, I believe my DH's family will completely close ranks on this. I have no confidence I would have been told should the situation be reversed as my PILs are completely overbearing over the rest of DH's siblings and would do their best to cover up.

To look at Alan he is a quiet, sensitive boy with normal friends and no special needs. It pulled the rug underneath our feet. Then we found out as I mentioned earlier, police were monitoring him for months cruising nappy fetish websites and participating in chatrooms. These websites inevitably containing pictures or access to resources of young babies.

To 'Feedthegoat', thank you for sharing your story. I imagine your BIL is much older than Alan. Did either your husband or yourself have any inkling about sexual orientation or tendancies? Did his family have no clue whatsoever? I'm interested to know more about your BIL if it can helpme understand my BIL!!

Thanks for your posts everyone. I feel a lot of support from you.

StarryCole Wed 30-May-12 11:57:19

OK, update on my previous post My DH had a chat with his parents last night. and the results of my and DH discussion since are as follows:

1) Both ILs and DH TRULLY believe there is no danger to children since Alan still lives at home with his parents and believes his parents can adequately supervise Alan and any children at their house at all times. I quote from DH & IL 'Until Alan has his own means of transport/leaves home and cannot be monitored, that is when we should tell other family with kids (namely Roger in the immediate term). Same with Alan being at Roger's house who will ALWAYS have ILs present. (!)

2) DH has read THIS thread. He is not angry but believes the Mumsnet audience would NEVER post a contrary opinion to every one who has replied here because it would not be deemed socially acceptable (and so far you have ALL agreed). (!!)

3) DH & ILs would like to 'tell later' should there be an event/time/situation that warrants it - maybe in 4 or 5 years time when kids are grown up (sorry I don't get that at all) but basically it seems to give Alan a chance to 'get on with his own life and go to college' and 'let Alan prove himself' and anyway, in their opinion the risk is so low nothing will happen anyway. (!!!)

4) DH & ILs view Alan as a 'suicide risk', prone to depression, suffer from his school exams etc...if we OUT the secret now.

My DH wants us and the ILs (his parents) to discuss a plan of action and not do anything rash. My DH also wants us to seek an expert opinion (i.e., the therapist working with Alan) to help us shape future discussions and action.

I feel the goalposts are being moved.

I AM THE ONLY ONE that believes Roger and his wife have a right to know NOW as they are already parents to their unborn child.

Given ALL the facts of this case, what happened last year to my son, Roger's 'delicate frame of mind', relationship with DH and his family. Given all that I am putting on the line here, would YOU as my SIL/ BIL expecting a baby, STILL WANT TO KNOW AND WHEN?

Not know at all given that the likelyhood of anything bad to your DS or DD is remote? But still a risk? However remote? Would you want to be empowered with that knowledge? Would you feel upset your ILs or Parents or brother deliberately held such information from you??

smalltown Wed 30-May-12 12:09:09

1) do they supervise him all the time? So he's never left alone?? How would this work? Would he ever be allowed upstairs to, say get a jumper, without being followed?
2) so he wants the non socially acceptable answer?
3) they want to tell people in the future, when they imagine him to be 'cured'? What purpose would this serve?
4) and being forced to be watched at all times, & lie to his own brother is not the cause?

I'd be moving far away from them.
And telling your SIL, & suggesting she move.

mistlethrush Wed 30-May-12 12:09:34

Given the whole family was round him (ie he was in the house with lots of family visiting) when he exposed himself last time, how on earth are things going to be different for a new child? What do your PiL want? Do they want another grandchild affected by this? What happens if its not just exposure the second time? What sort of help is Alan getting and what is the feedback from any therapists that have been brought in to help?

Of course you're not being over the top with what you're saying - they need to know so that they can put appropriate boundaries in place for their child. It is not your fault that Alan exposed himself to your son, but you would be caught up with the blame and guilt if it happens to your DN.

Whatnamethistime Wed 30-May-12 12:18:05

Ok - tell - and dh that's not because it's the Mumsnet "massive" there is NEVER a thread where every one agrees.

StarryCole Wed 30-May-12 12:19:57

Mistlethrush - Thanks for your response. What does my PIL want? They want me to keep my mouth shut and completely wrap this up and put a lock on it. Alan is getting professional counselling but I've not had the opportunity to speak to this person and even if this professional is even allowed to speak to me (patient confidentiality).

I am going to meet with my ILs very soon to have a discussion but the pressure is very great to 'toe the line'. And goal posts are being moved, everyone wants me to agree 'Don't say anything now, say something maybe later when our DC are older'.

Heyyyho Wed 30-May-12 12:20:53

oh dear.

Tell them in 5 years time confused. They need to know now their child/ children will be non verbal when potentially around Alan. The fact that they said this is VERY disturbing to me.

I would bear in mind people with "problems" such as Alan are never cured. Really he is extremely disordered and potentially v dangerous man.

Btw what was the "separate issue" the police pulled him up for?

DoingItForMyself Wed 30-May-12 12:22:43

Can't quite see the logic of waiting until Roger's child is 4 or 5 before telling him, if Alan's fetish involves nappies/babies - your DS was 3.5 when Alan exposed himself to him, therefore if you wait until Roger's child is 4 or 5 (s)he will already be older than the age at which your poor DS was abused.

As someone whose parents allowed her to stay overnight/bath at the house of a relative who was a known paedophile (sp?) I can only say that if I were Roger's child and I found out later that you could have prevented me being abused by speaking out, but didn't so as not to offend anyone, I would hold you & your DH/PILs partly responsible.

You know what the right thing is here, you just don't want to rock the boat. I know it will be hard but the PILs sounds like PITAs and I would be happy to lose them, even if DH maintains contact on his own. Sorry, I know its harsh.

DoingItForMyself Wed 30-May-12 12:24:21

And I agree I've never seen a thread where EVERY person agrees. Never.

cheesesarnie Wed 30-May-12 12:28:18

1) unless they can be with him 24 hours a day or never comes into contact with another child its impossible and stupid.
2) people on mn NEVER agree!but this is a child!
3) what if 4 or 5 years is too late?could you forgive yourself?
4) he needs to see someone about that, you cant walk on egg shells just incase.

i just dont get your pil?yes this is their son but what about the other 2 sons and what about the grandchildren?

what contact have you had since this incident?

bishboschone Wed 30-May-12 12:29:47

Why does Alan need to know they know though? Just tell roger not to let the child be alone with Alan . Alan doesn't need to know roger knows anything.

mistlethrush Wed 30-May-12 12:30:19

My 'what do PiL want' was hmm rather than anything else - they clearly just want to sweep it under the carpet and wait for another grandchild to be abused. Then let you and your DH share some of the blame.

bishboschone Wed 30-May-12 12:31:36

Weird response from parents too. If Alan were my child I would kick him to the kerb . ! Im still shocked that a 15 year old boy is Perusing chat rooms about nappy fetishes sad.

I would tell them, this Alan sounds like an extremely unsavoury character that imo should not be allowed near children and everything must be done to keep him away from kids & babies.
What he did was wrong on a high level considering he was 15!!
I cannot believe what your pils are doing!- they are going to be putting a newborn at risk from a sexual predator all because they want to brush it under the carpet.
I wouldn't worry about the threats, who wants to know people that are hiding such a discusting secret, not to mention what the police held him up for the last time either.
Your niece or nephew should take priority over their sordid lies!-if he has been looking up websites aswell god knows what his next move might be, please tell your bil & sil asap

hillsidemansion Wed 30-May-12 12:39:41

test

1950sHousewife Wed 30-May-12 12:42:36

I agree, I've never seen complete agreement on MN, this thread is unusual. You can take a cut and dried subject like the balloon launch thread and there will always be someone who says something contrary. Just show threads like that to your DH. We are not the borg on here.

Personally, I don't think that telling an older brother will be an unloving thing to do. Alan is a child. He needs support and care. He needs help. Supressing all this into a 'Massive Family Secret' won't be good for him either. Surely if your DH can cope with what Alan did to your son, can still love him and hope for the future that he will 'get better' then it will be the same for his older brother.

Loving someone means that you can accept their flaws (mainly, of course there are limits) and love and want to help them anyway. It means that your BIL will have control over family occasions. It means that Alan can still be part of it all.

Do they all have such a low opinion of your BIL and his ability to handle this information in a loving way?
It's not like you would be posting flyers around the neighbourhood...

Sarcalogos Wed 30-May-12 12:48:04

Tell. You just have to, however hard other people make it for you. You owe it to everyone involved, even if they can't see that.

Remember you only know what you know, it is possible that there is more to all this and your PILs have kept it from you. They don't sound as if they can be relied upon to tell you everything. They seem intent to normalise this.

Maybe get your DH to ring the nspcc or similar for advice, he might trust them more than us.

GladbagsAndYourHandrags Wed 30-May-12 12:50:40

I'd tell the expectant parents, and quite frankly couldn't care less what sort of relationship I had with PIL after that. What is wrong with them? They are SO intent on burying it under the carpet. I hate to ask but do you think Alan could have been abused?

hillsidemansion Wed 30-May-12 12:53:15

Many years ago my company had employed a young sales man, in his early twenties. We were running surveil lance software on every pc in the company, logging everything the employees did online. We were especially targeting chat room activity as this was against the PC Usage policy.

We hardly ever reviewed the logs, but certain usage were flagged up and the logs put in a quarantine. To tell the truth, I did not know such chat rooms even existed. But this young man spent his lunch hours chatting to other young like minded boys and men. He was talking about his little sister. (He was living with his mum and half sister) And how much he loved giving his sister a bath, and especially what a treat it was if the little girl had play dates. He said he was so privileged to have young girls "on tap". It was sickening.

What I found out through researching the topic, was that most pae do files are "formed" during puberty, and most are formed by the age of 18. Very often it starts with younger family members and friends, and very often, with children just a few years younger than themselves, and then they get "stuck" liking children aged 12/13 rather than people their own ages as they mature.

I think a lot of youngsters experiment, some with nappies even, without it ever turning into anything sinister. But this boy, is already in therapy, and there has been more than once incident.

In my opinion, it will help nobody to brush this under the carpet. The young lad needs help and support, and family, he is not a monster, he might become one, but today he might just be young and misguided and with love and support MAYBE he will outgrow this. But, you need to protect babies. And there should not be secrecy about this.

SingingfortheMoon Wed 30-May-12 12:58:02

Are the parents planning to follow Alan or the children for every second of any visit? I can't see how this would work. It only took him a few minutes to expose himself to your son so in the time they take to realise that Alan and one of the children are not in the room - easy enough to lose track of people at big family events - then he could have done it again. Is that what they mean by an event that warrants telling?! To me it sounds like they're waiting until he does something again or something worse before taking action.

Also, they say he is a suicide risk and worry about his future etc. so surely the PIL would worry about following him all the time when children are present, or keeping children away from him, might affect his self-esteem. I wouldn't trust them to actually keep to this plan.

This does not sound like a normal part of growing up. It is good that he is having therapy and he may well go on to lead a perfectly normal life, but he has already done something terrible and there is a chance that he could do it again.

I think you need to try and convince your husband that you should share this information with Roger and his wife. If you cannot convince your husband then perhaps you could have a word with Roger or his wife and explain the situation, and that PIL and your DH do not see Alan as a risk anymore, but that they should just be a little wary of leaving their child at PIL house - I personally wouldn't trust PIL with a child alone if Alan were there as they sound too trusting and willing to believe he won't do anything again, and so might pop to the corner shop or something leaving Alan in charge of baby.

It's not just the incident with your son, the website history shows that it was an ongoing thing prior to that. The nappy thing means perhaps he is interested in babies too so I think it would be best to warn them before the baby is born.

Hopefully Roger and his wife will be able to take this all on board and there's no need for them to tell PIL or Alan that they know about the incident, or for you to tell PIL that you have spoken to Roger and his wife.

NorbertDentressangle Wed 30-May-12 13:02:35

Stuff what the ILs say -Roger and his wife should be told.

MousyMouse Wed 30-May-12 13:03:58

do tell. will cause uproar, but also relief.

babylann Wed 30-May-12 13:06:48

I agree, tell them. I would not care about losing relationship with PILs if it meant putting a child in a safer place where sexual abuse is concerned.

Out of curiosity, what does your husband think about all of it?

InstructionsToTheDouble Wed 30-May-12 13:07:43

Message deleted by Mumsnet for breaking our Talk Guidelines. Replies may also be deleted.

SweetGrapes Wed 30-May-12 13:11:42

It's a nappy fetish. I would like to know while my child was still in nappies thank you very much. Not 4-5 years later when they have grown up and are no longer in nappies anyway.

Supervision - who are they kidding??? With your ds you were all there, right? Who prevented anything from happening?

At that point presumably your IL's knew about this and he was under supervision at that point too. it's happened once, it can happen again. What about a large Christmas family gathering? Who's doing the cooking and entertaining and who is supervising a grown lad for every single minute? My dd has sen and I have to supervise her all the time. Physically impossible.

Socially unacceptable to disagree on MN??? shock. Doesn't he know we are a nest of vipers?
There is only one more thread I have read on here where there was complete agreement (been here 6 years or so) and that was where the DM had a BF who was a CSO and she (the dm) was convinced it was the girls fault (her bf was entrapped by 13-14 yr old girls hmm) and wanted to have 11-12 year old grand daughters to stay the night with her and her bf/lodger.
Again complete agreement on MN to break off with mum. Childs safety comes first.

mistlethrush Wed 30-May-12 13:13:19

StarryCole - I would like to know what your DH proposes to say to his brother when Alan exposes himself to your new DN (or worse).

OP, this 'sweeping under the carpet' by adults is the sole reason that someone in my family went on to sexually assault various children in the family. Please dont allow yourself to be bullied into saying nothing. sad

Maybe Alan will grow up to be a fine, upstanding person - but 2 incidents so far. Not 1 but 2 and he is only 15.

This boy did this when you, your husband and your ILs were in the house. No way would I be visiting with my child EVER if that was the ILs stance.

And your husband needs to realise that his brother has some very VERY serious issues regarding children. By all means speak to a sexual therapist regarding this or a child psychologist but I imagine they will tell you to keep your child safe.

NimpyWindowmash Wed 30-May-12 13:13:35

I must disagree with an earlier poster who said "I would bear in mind people with "problems" such as Alan are never cured. Really he is extremely disordered and potentially v dangerous man."

At 15 the personality is not fully developed, so although there is potential for a disordered personality as an adult, this is not a forgone conclusion.

However, I do agree that the morally correct thing to do is to tell BIL and SIL. Why such a big deal? The PILs don't need to know. Alan doesn't need to know. Just a quiet word.

babylann Wed 30-May-12 13:14:31

Sorry, have just noticed your previous post about your DH's thoughts.

Elephantsteaparty Wed 30-May-12 13:32:50

What was your DH's reaction to the incident at the time? I presume he was as shocked and unhappy about it as you were, and wished it hadn't happened. Correct?

In which case, ask him what he'd feel if the positions were changed between him and Roger, ie if Roger's child had been molested but the family were told not to tell you and your DH until your child is 5. How would he feel then? And how would he feel if the same thing happened to your child, but you could have prevented it if you'd been told the facts?

Would love to know what his answer is.

Wheezo Wed 30-May-12 13:46:23

So sorry for you OP that your DH is taking this view. Is he always controlled by his parents like this? I just can't understand why any decent loving parent would have their child within a 5 mile radius of a person who has a sexual preference for children wearing nappies and has exposed himself ALREADY to their child. Can you imagine your child finding out that daddy didn't want to upset granny and grandad so that's why he had to endure the strange visits to them being followed from room to room by Alan with the rest of the family trailing behind. Plus if I was Roger and discovered that this had been kept secret from me, preventing me from protecting my own children when everyone else in the family circle was aware and able to protect their children, I'd be fucking furious and would not be interested in spending time with them at all int efuture regardless of whether Alan is under 24 hour surveillance or not. Alan will have future brushes with the law over his 'sexual orientation' and this nasty can of worms won't remain closed.

If Alan had physically assaulted your son in a non-sexual way would your DH feel more comfortable about standing up for his child? Is it the sexual aspect of the assault that is preventing him from protecting his child?

60 years ago someone took a similar decision in my mum's family leading to my mum being raped from the age of 6 (she says it could be earlier but can't remember much further back and doesn't want to) to the age of 9 when she broke down and told her younger brother (who was 7) who vowed to protect her and never left her side when they were at the rest of the family's homes (the rapist was a younger brother of my mum's mum who was babied by the parents in preference to protecting their GCs - v similar age and set up to this) - we don't have any contact whatsoever with that side of the family for obvious reasons.

Heyyyho Wed 30-May-12 13:51:31

it's really so odd the PIL are saying they will tell in 4 years or so - when they children at risk will be out of nappies.

Floggingmolly Wed 30-May-12 13:51:33

Your DH has done a very abrupt turnabout, hasn't he? Your PIL's have done a really good job on him sad
Please tell them anyway, by the time an "event which warrants telling them" happens, it's already too late, isn't it? confused. Or are they implying if it happened outside the family, then that would have been a risk worth taking? Because that is completely sick hmm

MaryPoppinsBag Wed 30-May-12 13:52:32

Just tell your SIL!
You may find when her baby arrives you will not be able to help but tell her.
I couldn't not say anything.

This has nothing to do with the adults and everything to do with Safeguarding a child!

ksrwr Wed 30-May-12 13:53:20

In my opinion, children that need protecting at all costs. you must tell.

MaryPoppinsBag Wed 30-May-12 14:01:40

All you need to do is ask yourself how you would feel if your BIL and SIL knew about his 'behaviour' before he exposed himself to you child, and hadn't warned you.

In answer to your question OP, if I were Roger I'd want to know once the baby is born. Treat it as a practical issue that will have an impact when the baby is here, not something he needs to dwell on while he's preparing for fatherhood.

EldritchCleavage Wed 30-May-12 14:17:33

Your PILS and DH are desperately rationalising away any risk because they do not want to face this. I do think it is absolutely the wrong thing to do. Secrets empower abusers (or potential abusers) and disempower their targets.

Be clear that you are being asked to put Roger's child(ren) at risk to maintain the status quo within the family. That just isn't a good enough reason, in my opinion.

None of you can know what degree of risk Alan poses, but common sense indicates there must be some risk. It wasn't a silly one-off, because he has already frequented websites about this kind of interest.

So I agree Roger and wife should be told now. I know the baby isn't here yet, but this way they can absorb the news and work out what they want to do in advance. Otherwise-what? Tell them the minute it is born and mar that period of their lives forever?

And be very wary of PIL. The denial, the threats, the minimising of the effect on your son-all very very bad news. It doesn't sound as though they can be relied on to protect any children from Alan's 'interest' and in time you may need to consider telling SS about that. Please do not be pressured into contact with Alan that even theoretically puts your dc at risk.

And for your DH, I don't say any of this to be 'socially acceptable'. I'm a survivor of sustained abuse suffered when only a few months older than your son AND I REMEMBER. The abuser was unmasked abusing an older boy, but despite his having had access to us, my (otherwise lovely) parents just buried the whole thing. They seemed unable to face the prospect of what might have happened so I was never asked about him or told what had happened re his disappearance from our lives and so suffered in silence for decades. That has proved as hard if not harder to get over than the abuse. I do have a good relationship with my parents but the rage and pain over the years has sometimes been terrible.

Please make the active protection of your son and other small children in the family your top priority.

Chubfuddler Wed 30-May-12 14:19:17

If you hadn't found out about this for yourself, you wouldn't have been told.

If you hadn't involved the police, no one else would have done.

Do your pils not accord their eldest son the courtesy of being an adult and making informed decisions about his soon to be born child?

I would imagine the whole thing may be taken out of their hands when whoever is supervising/treating Alan finds out a baby is soon to arrive in the extended family.

Your husband sounds pretty spineless by the way.

I can't believe your husband is now on side with your PsIL. Very difficult now as really any action should be coming from him and not left to you.

I still think they need to know. What happens if Alan is asked to hold the baby, to change the baby, to watch the baby for 5mins while Roger, for example, makes a cup of tea? It all makes me very uncomfortable. I don't think Alan deserves the benefit of the doubt here considering what is being put at risk. I'd maybe leave it a week or so then bring it up with your DH again.

AKE2012 Wed 30-May-12 14:33:31

Id tell without a second thought. If your husband agrees it would be best if he tells them.
Ok he is a teenage boy getting therapy but caution needs to be taken. It may have just been a stupid thing and he may not be any harm but you cant risk it.

If it was my parents they would have phoned the police themselves.

You and your family are better off without them if they are going to treat you in a bad way for this

ItsAllGoingToBeFine Wed 30-May-12 14:39:39

I'm probably being thick here, but why do Alan and the PILs need to know if you tell Roger and his wife.

Can't you just tell them (Roger et al) and they can discreetly ensure constant supervision of their DC when they may come into contact with Alan. If done discreetly why would Alan/PILs ever know?

Important question though - is Alan on someone's radar. Presumably he could be a potential danger to non related children?

feedthegoat Wed 30-May-12 15:01:25

I've pm'd you StarryCole with more indepth reply. Hadn't read about your dh seeing his parents then.

But before bil's arrest I didn't suspect anything,no. He was my shining example of a male primary teacher and I would have trusted him implicitly.

But certain things ring alarm bells in hind sight (a few late teen girlfriends when in his 30's). Didn't make me suspect him in the least at the time, I just thought he was immature emotionally.

Your IL's sound like mine. Please ask your dh to consider what I said in my pm that dh and i used as our reference when things were horrific. You need to be able to look your child (and your neice or nephew) in the eye as adults and be able to say hand on heart that you did your absolute best to keep them safe. Should his trust in Alan prove (god forbid) misplaced, could he do that? You have to live with the decisions you make. Please make sure he fully understands this.

5 years ago I would have said my bil was not capable of what he is in prision for.

StarryCole Wed 30-May-12 16:25:27

In response to a few of you, why do PIL's have to know? Unfortunately, I do not know my BIL/SIL well enough if I/DH went and spoke to them directly. I think they would want to raise this with their PIL's anyway - it's too big a deal not to.

My DH is the eldest of a few other sisters and brothers. This big ugly elephant could potentially arise several times over in the future! Only DH and Roger has kids for now.

PILs are scared of future repurcussions. They do not give enough credit to Roger or to me in the way I and my family have delt with Alan. We act normal around him and we understand the pains AND I have let my DS/DD still play with Alan (in supervision!). I'm not looking for bloody credit anyway.

StarryCole Wed 30-May-12 16:38:40

Writing this to DH I'm hoping he will read this:

Dear DH

I hope I have given a fair and truthful account. I hope you have read all these responses as they are unanimous.

It is morally the right thing to do to disclose to your SIL/BIL sooner rather than later given the FACTS of our case and Alan's - before the baby is born (why marr SIL/BIL special time after the baby is born?).

Alan has support, plus support from us and a very loving family. He will be OK.
We cannot be sure our future DN/kids will be OK if we don't step in and ACT NOW,

I am willing to put my neck on the line - so I can truthfully say to my DS and future DN I have done all that I can to protect them. A RISK IS STILL A RISK no matter how small.

What RIGHT do we have not to disclose? We have no reason insurmountable to the the protection of children who cannot protect themselves.

I'm sorry your PILs cannot see this. I am with you because you are a fair man, a good man and you know what the right thing is to do here.

God give us the strength.

StarryCole

feedthegoat Wed 30-May-12 17:15:40

I hope he sees it's the right thing to do StarryCole. Your pil have the right to feel protective of their son but you need to ensure the protection of yours. You do need to be united. I don't think dh and I would have come through this together if we hadn't been and even then it's been tough.

Hope everything goes well and you can discuss everything properly. My in laws just wanted to act like it wasn't happening and I still think we were cast out of the family as we were the only ones wanting to try and deal with it. Not speaking to us was easier. If you can get everyone to be honest I think you'll stand a much better chance than us. It makes me so sad to think of another family struggling with this because I know what it does. But on the otherhand, reading the stories of other here makes me sure we did the right thing for our child.

1950sHousewife Wed 30-May-12 17:16:57

Can I second StarryColes letter.

It's not hysterical, or part of a mob mentality. It's accepting that Alan has a problem, you want to help him with this problem, but also protect those that it might affect.
And as you said, it's better to tell now, so the BIL has time to digest this info before the baby is born.
Remember also, OP, you are independant of your DH and your PILs. If it meant my DH or PILs never forgiving me for telling, so be it. I would rather that scenario than my future DN never forgiving me. So what if you barely know them, I think it would come best from you DH, but if worst came to worst. And remember, you 'forgave' Alan, enough that he plays with your DS. Surely your DHs brother can see it the same way?

SweetGrapes Wed 30-May-12 17:20:10

You know, just now they are saying he's young and depressed and what not.
A few years down the line it'll be - look how well he's doing. Can't jeopardize(sp?) his college/new career etc etc. They are never going to tell any future parents about anything. It'll never be the right time - and if some little child gets abused in the meanwhile, then so be it.
It's all about Alan and rationalisation.

Mr StarryCole - Step up and grow a pair.

OhDoAdmitMrsDeVere Wed 30-May-12 17:35:59

To the OPs DH.
Surely it is better to prevent Alan from commiting another offence?
For Alan as well as his victim?

Because if Alan has a tendency to depression re-offending would be likely to push him over the edge.

It is not the PIL's decision to make. We all have a responsibilty to protect children.
Alan is still a child and he needs to be protected too. Not from the consequences of his actions but from the consquences of repeating his actions.

I dont think I need to go into detail about how important it is to protect the potential victims of his sexual preferences.
That must be obvious.

kitcatcandy Wed 30-May-12 18:01:21

I just wanted to add that I would tell, and I would also be concerned that due to your PIL ways of dealing with this, that there am be other offences you are not aware of. For me this would be more reason to tell.

They need to know, how awful would it be if something happened and the new baby's parents found out you all knew Alan was a risk and no one told them?

Keeping secrets just gives Alan more power, and the power should be in the parents hands.

5madthings Wed 30-May-12 18:10:30

yes you must tell, you can say to your bil and his wife that it may be best for them not to mention that htey know but in all likelyhood they will want to talk to them about it and may well be annoyed that they havent been told already tbh.

if i found out that a family member had kept something like this a secret and my children were put at risk i would be furious, sorry but i would be.

you are colluding with your inlaws and 'alan' by not disclosing this to them and i cant see roger and his wife taking it well if they find out at a later date.

tell them now before their baby is born so they have time to process this and think about it camly etc.

I am more a lurker, but couldn't not comment. You must tell your BIL/SIL the situation. There is no way I would keep this quiet. If you did and something happened to their child you would carry some guilt. I would also NEVER let your DC be around your PILs alone, EVER, they obviously do not grasp the seriousness of what their son has done and are being very cavalier with the welfare of their grandchildren.

monkeymoma Wed 30-May-12 18:20:01

I would absolutely tell, but on top of that I would avoid the PILs, most abusers were abused, many by someone close to the family, so someone close to the family may have "made" Alan how he is, and the PILs "under the carpet" would make me not trust them!

I wouldn't care what those people thought TBH! please tell, good luck x

WineOhWhy Wed 30-May-12 18:34:59

I would tell before baby is born, but would wait until after Alan's exams.

monkeymoma Wed 30-May-12 18:50:30

the ILs did not protect their OWN child, from himself, his condition, his actions, and whatever trauma may have triggered it

I wouldn't trust them one jot! Alan is ill, his parents are facilitating his illness, what kind of parents FACILITATE any illness their child has?

I wouldn't care if they cut me off

sososohard Wed 30-May-12 18:57:37

From a legal point of view, they can (and apparently should) keep this secret.

Even if he was charged and waiting trial, you would be expected to keep it quiet.

Did you all know that you can be charged of serious offences against a child, live in a house with children, whose friends visit, and no-one has the right to know.

Unless a perpetrator is found guilty in a court of law, their rights are paramount.

soso-maybe so but this 15yo is not right in the head and clearly a danger-his rights shouldn't be paramount at all.
A 15 yo knows right from wrong, what he is doing is not right or normal.
Tell the bil & sil op

MarySA Wed 30-May-12 19:06:17

Of course you must tell. It is just simply not an option to keep quiet. These people must be given the opportunity to protect their child.

sososohard Wed 30-May-12 19:07:34

sorry, there wasnt enough irony in my post clearly, I know this as the parent of a victim.

StarryCole Wed 30-May-12 19:11:24

Sososohard. Thank you for your response. Do you have a non-legal opinion? I'm open to all views in this free talking forum. We deliberately declined to press charges btw.

This is an ethical dilemma IMO. We're not here to vilify Alan but to do what's best.

sososohard Wed 30-May-12 19:16:52

Well non legally, if I EVER find out that anyone knew about him and covered for him, then there will be murder.

And if anything ever happens to another child, that he has access to through the children he currently resides with, I will hold their mother equally responsible for the abuse.

As far as I am concerned she is failing her duty of care to her own children, as well as those children visiting her her home.

After all how many of us would allow our children to visit a house where there was a man accused of these sorts of crimes living.

sososohard Wed 30-May-12 19:19:59

not literal physical murder btw - I mean of the shouting, cutting people out of my life variety.

Ratbagcatbag Wed 30-May-12 19:23:15

Ok I haven't read all the responses but I could not not post on this.

I will give you another perspective on this.

My uncle sexually abused his sister (my aunt) when he was 14, lots of heavy petting and touching, she told her parents and they said it was normal and not to say a word as people would think she was dirty.

My mum didn't know any of this and let her brother babysit me, he sexually abused me from the age of 3 to just before my 13th birthday, my mum stopped him coming around and her parents guilt tripped my mum into making her think that I would be brining shame on the family if he went to prison. It was never mentioned again.

I tried to take my own life in my teens and self harmed, it's taken me a very long time to be comfortable being me, I went to the police eight years ago now and he was prosecuted and still resides on the sex offenders register for another couple of years as well as having a stay courtesy of her maj.

All this because my aunt never mentioned he'd touched her, my mum would have never left me alone with hi if she'd known. I had to go to the police because I couldn't bear the thought of the police turning up one day and he'd done it to someone else.

Also the older they get the clever they are, my uncle had an amazing reference of a very high standing member of the community saying I was a liar, even though uncle had pleaded guilty and the guy didn't know me.

Heyyyho Wed 30-May-12 19:33:58

Ratbag sad Such a sad story.

Your poor, poor aunt she did tell her Mother and she was rejected.
All because the parents wanted to protect the abuser.

I don't often say this but was groomed and abused, -luckily not very seriously- by a family member when I was 10. It was very frightening. I didn't tell as such but the warning signs were so obvious - didn't want to be around him, said I hated him etc but no one asked me further or questioned my feelings toward him.

15 yes later I told my Mother but she just brushed it off and said well you should go to the police then hmm
She still has a picture of him in her living room. I don't really see her anymore and have lost all respect.
I am going off tangent here sorry. But families are very likely to protect these Men for fear of shame.

Ratbagcatbag Wed 30-May-12 19:43:27

I think it's much more commen than people think, I am now ok, but it has taken me years and lots of excellent friends and a superb DH, it split my mums family. Apparently I was a slag that blatantly gave him the come on, I was three, he was 19.

I struggle even now that my aunt didn't have a quiet word with my mum, but you can't change the past so have accepted what it is. But I could not ever live with the guilt if i had done nothing ad he did it again.

You must tell BIL, he'll give me their details and I will do it for you, but please do not ever not say anything, as you PILs are covering this up, there will be times ALan will be allowed to be alone with new baby when you don't know as they will want to test to see if he's safe.

ToryLovell Wed 30-May-12 19:56:06

Starrycole's DH - please read and digest the very sad posts by ratbag and others who have been in this situation.

Children need to be protected, and this will not happen by hiding it.

TidyDancer Wed 30-May-12 20:23:30

Oh gosh, what a horrible situation to be in, for many reasons.

You of course do need to tell, you and your DH have absolutely no right to withhold this.

Your PIL are blinded by the fact that Alan is their son, they can't see this clearly. They are hoping he won't do it again, which is why they are asking to wait to spill the secret until this new baby is out of nappies. They want the chance to say "look, the 'threat' has passed, there's no need to tell anyone now". It's not worth the risk, and they do not have the right to put your BIL and SIL in the position where their child is at risk simply because they haven't been given the right information.

I have a BIL and SIL with small children, and if DP's other brother had proved himself a risk to my DCs, I wouldn't hesistate to inform the other siblings so they could protect their own DCs. I wouldn't wait for or request approval from PILs, I would even go against DP if he asked me not to say anything.

OP, I am so sorry you are in this situation, it is really unfair you are having to deal with this.

AKE2012 Wed 30-May-12 20:52:39

It doesnt need to be made into a big scene. All you husband has to do is have a quiet word with them and say just keep an eye on your children. I'd feel guilty if i knew and didnt say something sooner.
I do hope u dont have to carry this burden for much longer.

AuntySib Wed 30-May-12 21:05:34

What a horrible situation! i agree with everyone else has siad, except that i think you should tell SIL, not Roger. It seems to me that your DH is almost colluding with PIL, and Roger may do the same. Your SIL needs to know, and I don't think you can rely on Roger to tell her.
its not up to anyone else to decide what you do - this family sounds weird, and as another poster pointed out, maybe something happened to Alan to make him the way he is. Your DH and Roger have both been brought up by the same PIL who are covering for Alan, and that is likely to affect how they see things. You know it is not safe for a baby to be anywhere near Alan, and your SIL has the right to know what happened so that she can protect her baby.
By the way, i think the police should have been involved, and you have toed the family line for long enough. it's clear from your post that you know what the right thing to do is, and I'm sure you'd never forgive yourself if this new baby is abused by Alan when you could have prevented it.
Your own conscience has to be your guide.
Good luck, we're all thinking of you in this awful situation.
xx

What a sad story ratbagsad, thinking of u.
Hope you sort this out op, even if it means just telling sil as it is important her child and future children are protected

Ratbagcatbag Wed 30-May-12 21:39:56

Thanks Pumpkin.
It's something for me that is dealt with now, I don't generally shout about it but I'm happy to discuss it, honesty I think there still is shame associated with it, but more so that people see you as a victim (which I know is what you are, but it doesn't define me IYSWIM) which isn't the reason I share it. I'm prob not making much sense. smile but that's generally me.

I hope the OP comes back, I don't think I've seen her on here tonight.

I think you should tell also. I have no experience of sexual abuse but it does worry me that your PIL think that a sexual attraction/fetish that seems to be pretty well developed at the age of 15 can be overcome through counselling.

I was probably about 7/8 when I realised I liked boys. My gay friend tells me that he knew he like the same sex aged about 7/8. What turns you on turns you on. I have never stopped liking boys/men and neither has my gay friend. It was imprinted on us from a young age.

No amount of counselling would convince me I like girls and vice versa if we had to be corrected in some way. If your nephew was/is turned on by children in nappies then it would take a massive amount of treatment to turn that round. I find it hard to believe that he could go from 'nappy' chat rooms and exposing himself to doing nothing just through counselling.

I just don't see how someone can go from being turned on by something to suddenly not just through talking to a therapist. I think Alan is a long way from being either cured or safe around young children.

hifi Wed 30-May-12 22:07:34

My sister had a similar situation with a child my mother was looking after. He was10 and nephew 5.

Dsis called me and said no one would tackle it as parents of child were pillars of the community.

I called my mum and said if she wouldn't tackle it we would. Mum pulled child to one side and outlined what had happened and concequences. He understood and it never happened again with Dn.

Will never know if It happened with another child.

It really bothers me that no one was prepared to tackle it head on,with the parents.

hifi Wed 30-May-12 22:08:19

So much protection is given to the perpertrator.

2to3 Wed 30-May-12 22:13:12

This is about doing what's in the best interest of the child - and that's doing anything you possibly can to protect them. Tell, and explain the sensitivity involved. Your in laws don't need to know you've told. If they find out, so be it - your conscience is still clear. They're being irresponsible by swearing you to secrecy about something so serious.

StarryCole Wed 30-May-12 22:58:41

Ratbagcatbag, heyyho, hifi and others here, thank you so much for sharing your stories. Its immensely supportive.

BustersofDoom- that's an interesting perspective you've given. Thank you. I think IMO (non expert) that therapy can explore these issues and help towards managing one's tendencies that could be harmful to others. But I agree it's not an absolute 'cure', if it were, there would be a chemical formula to it with proven results. Maybe there is gene that predetermines our sexual orientation or maybe its environmental influences? The nappy fetish or interest in babies or toddlers might not even be sexual, it could be a mental illness of some other kind.

I think PIL and DH don't want to admit it to themselves that such a mental state is here for the long term and possibly to stay. So they try to normalise this in their heads and deem Alan to be as low a risk as possible to others.

StarryCole Wed 30-May-12 23:31:05

Just to add, DH and I are going to continue discussions with ILs with the aim of having agreed plan and buyin from the 4 of us. I have very low expectations that they will understand mumsnetter's or my views. Their lenses are very coloured. I privately will out this secret to BIL/SIL ata timeframe that I think appropriate and will just have to deal with being the scapegoat and possibly my DH leaving me over this. They will see it as an act of 'betrayal'. But so be it, right?

NannyPlumIsMyMum Wed 30-May-12 23:32:58

Paedophilia means quite literally love of children.
Your BIL by viewing fetish material of babies is a paedophile.
Pedophiles cannot be cured . It is not an illness .
They are extremely dangerous as they see no wrong in what they do.
If I were you ? I would be making a call to Social Services .

NannyPlumIsMyMum Wed 30-May-12 23:37:50

starry working in psychiatry I can tell you that there is no illness that makes people look at fetish pictures of babies in nappies.

I wouldn't worry about your dh leaving you. I wouldn't want to be married to him considering what he knows and what he refuses to do.

Any adult who knows what he did and what is possibly IS and who doesn't take steps to warn other parents? Well, it's not the type I'd want to be or want to be with!

cheesesarnie Wed 30-May-12 23:47:42

Nannyplum(love your name)- voice of reason.

StarryCole Wed 30-May-12 23:50:33

And to my DH, that is my bottom line if our SIL or BIL isn't notified. And I will not wait till baby is born. My DH , you accuse me of making threats. I won't slander you or your ILs or try to pressure you by giving every reason under the sun TO disclose.

You and PILS are giving me every reason under the sun NOT to disclose.

So I will continue having an open dialogue with you and PILs if it keeps the wheel moving but I repeat DH my bottom line is not a threat but a damn promise!!

Now I need a glass of wine ......

cheesesarnie Wed 30-May-12 23:58:28

here wine grin <patting back in soothing manner>

stay strong and stick to your gut feeling on this.

fannybaws Thu 31-May-12 00:02:53

Please tell them , I have a group of five good female friends, one was abused for years by her grandfather, one by her stepbrother.
In both cases they told adults and not enough was done to protect them from further abuse.
One mother even allowed friends of her daughters to go for sleepovers at the abusers home to "help" protect her child. Incredible.
We as the adults have a clear responsibility first to the most vulnerable.

EldritchCleavage Thu 31-May-12 00:27:50

From a legal point of view, they can (and apparently should) keep this secret

There is no legal requirement to keep such a thing secret. While young offenders are not generally named, you could not be successfully sued for disclosing it to your BIL and SIL.

StarryCole Thu 31-May-12 06:26:32

Thanks for clarifying that EldritchCleavage as I was worried about that point as well. This boy is not being charged or in courts so I can speak out.

I truly believe he has a right to a normal life and not be criminalised, he is a young boy after all. But equally, we need to empower people that care for children by giving them the knowledge to make the right safety choices for their children. It's not our right not to provide that.

And DH - if we keep talking about Alan being a suicide risk, this needs to be reported appropriately to the authorities to handle but I refuse to be engage in an illogical argument where I value the life of one unborn child over his!

CheerfulYank Thu 31-May-12 07:13:52

They need to know.

What if Alan is alone one day and there's an emergency with Roger and his wife and they think, oh Alan can watch the baby? Because they don't know what he's done.

Your future niece or nephew needs to be kept safe.

Sososohard Thu 31-May-12 09:09:45

Eldritch and Starry - we have been told we can be arrested for harrasment - for telling the truth. Im not going to go into it on a forum - but that's the way it is.

not that it's going to stop me

Sososohard Thu 31-May-12 09:48:50

I've had a think about this - the police would automatically have involved social services - as Alan is a child.

In addition the police, if Alan hasn't been charged and convicted of anything, have no power to order him to have therapy or make not charging him conditional on this.

I would suggest you aren't being told the full story.

AmberLeaf Thu 31-May-12 09:49:14

Yes the PILs are in denial at best and at worst they arte covering up for him and enabling him.

But OP I have to say and please do correct me if I'm wrong but why the heck have you allowed 'alan' to play with your DS since that incident?

Your in laws are wrong but you are not much further from wrong if you allow him access to your son after that.

These things happen because people (adults) allow them to. Ince you know what's going on you must DO something to protect your child.

Don't put your son in harms way deliberatly

AmberLeaf Thu 31-May-12 09:51:39

And WHY weren't the police involved when he exposed himself to your son?

That could be the tip of the iceberg

only4tonight Thu 31-May-12 09:56:56

I wouldn't be telling everyone within a 50 mile radius in this case but Roger is family. Family tend not to have natural defenses up in "safe" places like family homes so he has to be told that this is not a "safe" environment.

I truly believe he has a right to a normal life and not be criminalised

This might not necessarily be the case. I'm not into sensationalism and over-reacting but he is very nearly an adult and you have no idea what he will become. As other posters have said: paedophilia is a sexual orientation. It can't be cured any more than hetrosexuality or homosexuality.

You KNOW that he is a potential danger. You have a duty to that child to tell his/her parents. Nappy fetishes + newborn? This child is in potentially worse danger than your own ds.

I think your dh is a disgrace tbh. Your PILs are unspeakable, but sadly their story is more common than it should be. As you say OP, if Alan is suicidal then he needs the appropriate help.

Fancy putting his exams before the safety of a baby! The mind boggles.

Sososohard Thu 31-May-12 10:10:41

As I said I know there are children living in and visiting the home where a man accused of rape of a child is living.

Those children mother has made that choice for her own children - however she is also making that choice for every visiting child.

If anything happens to a child under her roof - she will be entirely responsible. 100% - she will be as guilty as the perpetrator - because she is colluding in covering up for him.

In addition - and I have done plenty of reading - I have read that some teenage offenders go on to reoffend as older males - with a large time span in the middle - if I can find that reading again - Ill post the link - but I've read so much.

You have a duty of care to your new niece or nephew as well as your own child.

It will be too bloody late afterwards won't it.

EldritchCleavage Thu 31-May-12 10:26:05

Eldritch and Starry - we have been told we can be arrested for harrasment - for telling the truth. Im not going to go into it on a forum - but that's the way it is

Well, that may be so in your case, sososohard (and I'd challenge it, I must say-I feel for you becausae it sounds as though you are in an awful situation), but it is not correct as a general proposition. Even if Alan had been charged and there were reporting restrictions in place, making a disclosure to the BIL and SIL for the purposes of safeguarding their child would not attract criminal or civil liability.

If you were in any doubt, OP, you could inform Social Services that Alan is soon to have contact with BIL and SIL's baby and possibly other family children and invite them to make the appropriate disclosures. However, I don't think that's actually necessary.

Sososohard Thu 31-May-12 10:28:48

The only reporting restrictions in place are those relating to not releasing the victims name - I can't understand it either.

AllRiseForHerVaj Thu 31-May-12 10:29:25

This is ridiculous. Utterly irresponsible not to flag this up with your ILs. How would you feel fi the shoe were on the other foot.

I would phone social services immediately.

mistlethrush Thu 31-May-12 10:29:41

Eldritch - that might be a good way of the OP dealing with the situation? Let SS sort it out?

EldritchCleavage Thu 31-May-12 10:38:11

Well, I think so, mistlethrush. Not least because SS will have to deal with it in the round, looking to protect Alan (who is still a child) as well as the other grandchildren. It does avoid the sense of taking sides, the accusations of wanting to destroy Alan's life etc.

And I must say, horrid though his actions are, I worry for 'Alan'-this stuff has to have come from sonewhere, he is apparently depressed and withdrawn, and he clearly has odd parents and a family with a certain amount of communication dysfunction. He should have SS help anyway.

I would not assume, either, that the PIL have Alan's best interests as their top priority. They may well be concerned to protect themselves, keep up appearances, anything.

Holidaymaker Thu 31-May-12 10:43:14

Their absolute insistence screams one thing to me.

That perhaps Alan has done this before and Roger knows and has been sworn to secrecy as they are trying to get you to.

That would explain their reluctance and avoiding telling Roger at all costs.

Additionally they cannot supervise Alan 24/7.

mummytime Thu 31-May-12 10:54:17

Why not tell social services that Roger, Alan's brother is expecting a baby in November, and you don't think he has been told anything about Alan's previous behaviour. Then let them do what they think is necessary. You could even do that anonymously.

But personally I worry that there maybe more unpleasant hidden things to emerge from this family.

MrsSquirrel Thu 31-May-12 11:12:02

As we know this is a family who keeps secrets, I agree that there are likely to be more secrets.

I wouldn't be surprised if one of the secrets is that Alan himself had been abused sad

aliasjoey Thu 31-May-12 11:43:59

I work for the NHS, although I don't have anything to do with children. We ALL have to attend a course on Safeguarding Children. The is mandatory for all staff, even those who do not have any contact with patients or children.

We were told on the course that we all have a duty towards safeguarding childrent everywhere - including outside of work. Actually, I think they said it was a legal responsibility - not sure. But they weren't talking about work since none of us worked with children. They said it is your responsibility to safeguard vulnerable children.

If I were you I'd wait till after Alans exams (although he and his parents don't have to know what you've done?) and then till your BIL and SIL. Although as someone else pointed out, there may be a whole family secrecy thing going on, there may be more you don't know. Go directly to the SIL.

AmberLeaf Thu 31-May-12 12:01:55

I've been thinking about this and some things don't add up, alan is 15 now not sure how old he was at the time of the incidents but as he us legally a child social service would certainly be involved, as someone rightly pointed out its possible alan himself has been abused or exposed to something.

You haven't been told the full picture.

ComradeJing Thu 31-May-12 12:32:39

I have seen a number of posts on MN in the short year and half I've been on here about children being abused in the same room as other family members.

I imagine some of those family members were also aware that the abuser was a risk to the child but decided, because the abuser was supervised, that nothing could happen.

You must tell IMO.

As a side point, if I ever found out my PIL and B&SIL knew that a family member was a risk, no matter how small, to my child and didn't tell me then I think I would do everything in my power to destroy their lives. Sorry blush that sounds really melodramatic but it is unforgivable not to make parents aware of the risk a person could be to their child.

ComradeJing Thu 31-May-12 12:35:39

Also, abuse survivors often speak of how the betrayal of other family members knowing someone is a risk and still exposing the abused person to the risk was as much of a betrayal and violation as the abuse.

I haven't been abused, and don't pretend to speak for survivors so couldn't comment but the idea of that - and not telling - chills me.

monkeymoma Thu 31-May-12 12:42:11

"You haven't been told the full picture" - I would put money on this! I doubt is is the first red flag from alan, and also I doubt you'll be told WHY Alan is damaged, and by whom - they could be sitting in the room too!

starrycole, you don't have to tell them directly, as has been suggested call your local safeguarding or SS and tell them that Alan is soon to come into contact with another baby - you won't have done anything wrong by anyone, Alan included, by doing this.

As has been mentioned Alan is a child too and he hasn't been protected in this either, alerting SS about the situating HE will be in with the next baby in the family will mean that HE will also be helped to not abuse again

Sososohard Thu 31-May-12 12:45:59

Comrade yes, there is a forum for survivors, and there is a thread there called "The Ultimate Betrayal", most of the posts there centre around how family members let the abuse victim down.

What victims need is absolute belief and support from those around them, and the knowledge that by speaking out, they have saved others from the same fate.

I'm trying to understand, but failing.

I don't understand Alan at all. What he did to your son was unforgivable. I would suspect that it was not an isolated incident. You have no way of knowing if there have been other incidents with your son when he was younger and just the thought of that would be enough to give me nightmares.

Unfortunately your PIL are willing to put Alan before their grandchildren. Based on this, I would refuse to ever leave them responsible for my children. EVER.

I would assume that there are many things you don't know about this family. I would be keeping my children away from all of them until there was some honest, open communication.

Without a doubt I would be telling my SIL why I was keeping my child away from Alan.
Without a doubt I would have informed the police.
Without a doubt I would have informed social services.
I am shocked that you would even consider keeping this secret, but I suppose this is how abuse works.

Alan is almost certainly a risk to children. You have a duty to protect any children who might come into contact with him. I would do that with or without my Husbands support.

MrsSquirrel Thu 31-May-12 13:41:15

I'm not so sure about that soso. Just because no-one has the right to know and someone is presumed innocent until provent guilty, does not mean that it would be an offence for Starry to tell her sil about what happened to her ds.

anotherdollar Thu 31-May-12 16:56:00

DH - to you, yes you - if you here - Can't even believe you would even try and withhold such massive info man. And the pressure your girl is getting from ya peeps is not on. Give her a break and man up.

Cut the bullshit crap and excuses you trying to rationalize about your bro. He's gonna be fine and if he's not and he's gonna pop himself, then YOU need to call make that call to the Socials or whatever. WAIT - You need to ask your girl or your peeps to do that first don't you??

If you were my bro I would pulp you - if risked MY child for even one day by not telling me. Where's the fucking family loyalty there I ask you?

SweetGrapes Thu 31-May-12 20:38:08

Have had this thread going round in my head all day. Just re-read the OP and once more am shocked at the cavalier attitude of your DH.
Your PIL I can understand - do not condone - but they are being true to form in trying to cover up at any cost. Maybe some history of abuse, maybe family name, maybe social stigma. God know what they are thinking but this is a very common approach. Which simply enables the perpetrator to carry on. Very wrong - but sadly very common.
But your dh?? Wtaf is he thinking?

fivegomadindorset Thu 31-May-12 21:08:03

I am not sure \i could stay married to a man who could condone not telling his OWN BROTHER about the potential danger they would be putting their child through. You can be sure that the police are keeping a very close eye on Alan having now been flagged up in two incidences.

Xmasbaby11 Thu 31-May-12 21:22:54

Yes, tell them. I know it can't be easy to break such awful news about someone they love, and I'm sure you don't want to relive it, but the rest of the family has a right to know.

Bletchley Thu 31-May-12 21:34:19

You obviously must tell them. But as the baby isn't due for months and it will be seen as especially inflammatory by your PIL if you do so during the boy's exams, I don't see why you can't wait a few weeks. It makes no difference.

Tattyhead78 Thu 31-May-12 21:39:50

What is wrong with being socially acceptable? Your FIL's view sounds screwed up and the kind of behaviour exhibited by Alan has probably been learned from him.

LowKey Thu 31-May-12 22:35:00

I believe purely on the basis of a child’s protection and everything else comes after. That’s means looking through a child’s eyes and thinking through a child’s mind and the impact they may have when they come across certain things in life.

This is not to say I don’t care about Alan and his family but if Alan actually does do this sort of thing again (am stressing here only if, and not when) to Roger’s new born child (or anybody else) then in the long run you will bear the brunt knowing you could of done something to prevent this, even if it’s just a matter of words.

You should never have listened to Alan’s parent in terms of being quiet. This is a very serious offence and if he was 1 year older at the age of 16 then the police could have made severe punishments.

There will be a time when perhaps we can get pass Alan’s wrongdoing but now, you must address this for the safety and wellbeing of others. I know it can be very hard when Alan’s parents are on your case but you must block them out as much as you can.

Regardless of what other people think of you, it is better to be cautious then be sorry.

ButtonBoo Fri 01-Jun-12 14:31:34

You've got to tell them. If it was the other way round, you'd want to know im sure. Explain exactly what you've said here - you've explained in a mature and rational way. I cannot understand for the life of me why your PILs would think it ok not to tell Roger, although I guess they consider Alans behaviour to be 'in the past'. That being said, in my opinion, even if it stays in the past, I'd want to know.

You only have to think, as awful as it is, if something more serious had happened with your child and you found out that something similar had happened before and you weren't told and your resentment and anger towards those not telling you.

forestcool Tue 05-Jun-12 11:34:06

I think it is your duty to tell. I would definitely want to know if I was in her position. This has affected your son, and by warning her, you will prevent the same thing happening to her child (which let's face it, there is a high probability of it happening again). As a parent, I think you owe it to the other parents, and also to the child. This kind of thing can have long lasting, damaging effects on their life and the future relationships for that child.

Without a doubt you need to warn them. Imagine if they find out anyway, down the line, come to you to talk about it, and you say you already knew! How would they feel then.... and you know you would have been wrong in not telling them.

This is not normal behaviour, and Alan needs help. Until then, the people around him need to know in order to prevent this from happening again. This will also be helping Alan in the long-run.

StarryCole Wed 06-Jun-12 22:12:42

I've done a ton of research on respected/authoritative as well as unauthoritative resources on peodophilia, infantilsm, Adult baby/diaper lover fetishes, speaking with mental health consultants and criminal barristers. I've even dialogued with TEENAGE nappy fetish lovers on internet forums myself. These are completely sane normal kids, who do really well at school but recognise they have a fetish side of them that is outside what we deem as the 'norm'.

Somewhat surprisingly (or not) I've learnt that there is a CLEAR distinction between nappy /adult baby fetishes vs peodophilia. These fetish lovers are bound by a strong moral compass as we are when it comes to children. They don't dream of acting out on children and they don't fantasise about being sexual with children (note - from those in the forum I have been speaking with). This gets deep but from what I understand, there's a play of regression, acting as an infant/child, being dominated and feelings of security associated with nappies or being a child rather than being sexual WITH a child. nappy /adult baby fetishes vs peodophilia - neither are seen by the pros as mental illnesses (and there is no cure).

Which then begs a serious red flag about my BIL Alan doesn't it? I guess I was trying to find reasons on why he is the way he is but in the end, only Alan can answer this.

Starrycole.

StarryCole Wed 06-Jun-12 22:15:11

I just wanted to let you know I'll be posting an update over the coming weeks and that I hadn't dissappeared off the face of this earth. I'm really hoping things will be ok and my PILs can speak to me again without going bananas!

I'm due to meet my PIL (I'm being summoned for a meeting with my DH), by which time my MIL will also have had a chat Alan's therapist.

I don't see any benefit for me to be at this family meeting personally, all I'm going to get again is verbal abuse about what a bad apple I am and how little respect I have and what right I have to tell her what to do ....blah blah blah. How is it ok to slag me off and blame me for all the trouble and hurt caused when I'm giving her really logical, sensible, rational reasons as to why she should ALSO protect her other children? MIL (not that you would ever read this) - you cannot be there at all times to protect your kids or Alan and I'm not holding a gun to your head, you have at least half a year to get a grip to rationalise this out before your other grandchild is born.

I'm going to this meeting to keep my DH happy and let the MIL vent. Why not? I'd rather her scapegoat me till the goats decide to go home. I'm still not going to change my mind on this or shut the f^ck up.

monkeymoma Wed 06-Jun-12 22:18:11

my god your DH is okay with you being summoned this way?
I do not understand why you are going? You think you can make a few rational statements to the ILs and they'll suddenly change their mind/behaviour - I genuinely cannot see how anything can be gained by this confrontation!
IMO Alan is not the only bad egg in the family (or close family circle)

ComradeJing Thu 07-Jun-12 05:38:30

Yes Starry, that really does raise questions about Alan but, tbf, you KNOW Allen is a danger to young children. You have personal proof plus the message from the police wrt them watching him.

Do you really think mil will listen to the therapist if therapist has anything negative to say about Alan? Do you really think mil will accurately repeat any advice or warnings that the therapist gives? I doubt it to both.

At the meeting I think your best bet is to just say you understand their fears but... And then repeat what you've written above about not always being able to protect him, holding a gun, scapegoat etc.

They won't like it, they won't listen and they won't forgive you for doing the right thing but it is the right thing to tell your BIL.

Best wishes.

ImperialBlether Thu 07-Jun-12 15:05:07

OP, are you not worried that now you are on these sites that you are being monitored? Do you not think it's taking things a bit far, going on such sites and talking to the people on them?

Isn't that EXACTLY how your BIL came to the attention of the police?

I find it disturbing that he was on those sites for months and long enough to be monitored by the police. I don't think you have been told the full story by the ILs. I wouldn't respect any DH who didn't tell his own brother that his baby may be at risk. I wouldn't worry about him leaving you; he should be worrying about you leaving him.

But in any case, get off those sites.

TomblibooTrousers Thu 07-Jun-12 15:17:22

I'm afraid I haven't read all the replies to your post but frankly don't think I need to. IMO you have an obligation, as an adult with this knowledge, to ensure people are made aware of this information and the baby is protected.
If you or your husband are in any doubt, you only need to look at the many threads about abuse on this website to see the damage it causes.

AmberLeaf Thu 07-Jun-12 15:48:48

Imperialblether that's what I thought too re the OP going on those sites.

OP why oh why would you do that?

Jux Thu 07-Jun-12 15:52:34

Good luck, StarryCole.

You are doing the right thing. Why has your dh changed his mind? Do your ILs trust Roger less than they trust your DH? Do they think Roger will make bigger waves, or something?

Perhaps this isn't actually a first offence, and perhaps Roger knows it?

Slambang Thu 07-Jun-12 16:23:49

Starry
Your research on nappy fetishes etc sounds interesting and I'm prepared to believe that it is not the same as paedophilia.

However Alan exposed himself to DS. That is sexual and it does involve a child. Therefore it is paedophilia.

I think the nappy fetishism bit may be a red herring here.

Sorry dh's family and your dh are being crap over this. Hopefully dh will have the sense in the long run to know deep down you are on his and his family's side and you are doing what's best for everyone.

ImperialBlether Thu 07-Jun-12 16:38:02

This is one of the problems with the internet, isn't it? I'd bet your BIL started off on boobs.com and then found his way gradually onto those sites. I think this is the problem with the internet at a time when you are developing sexually and you are turned on by just about anything.

If I were your ILs I wouldn't have the internet at all in the house.

RabidAnchovy Thu 07-Jun-12 17:01:38

I would tell you BIL/SIL and any other parent of any other child that was coming in to contact with this boy.
Please do not be bullied in to keeping quite, how will you feel when he does something to your niece/nephew knowing you knew what he was like and you said nothing.

Your in laws are behaving very badly

monkeymoma Thu 07-Jun-12 17:38:22

I would make a HUGE distinction between the fetish of adults wearing nappies, and adults who get sexual pleasure from infant nappies

I do not see the point of your reasearch, an adult that likes to wear adult sized nappies and be treated like a baby is in no way at all in my mind connected in any way to a man who exposes himself to nappy aged children

I do not believe that the police monitor sites where adults talk about wearing adult sized nappies with other adults.

Police would IMO monitor sites about infants in nappies. Totally totally totally different kettle of fish

Besides, you are trying to "understand" Alan based on the information given by the ILs, which isn't gonna be very accurate is it? so your research is pointless, it wont help it'll just throw up a load of red herrings!

Ratbagcatbag Thu 07-Jun-12 21:15:29

Starry please read and reread my earlier post, show it to your DH, hell show it to the PILs, but do not let them bully you into thinking you're wrong. I'm 29 and still have the scars for being sexually abused, it could have been stopped if my aunt had of mentioned it. I tried to take my own life because of it. If you want a more personal account so your DH understands it better pm and I will provide it, but whatever you do, make sure your BIL knows what Alan has done.

ImperialBlether Fri 08-Jun-12 10:18:19

I'm sure I'm not the only one who's been thinking about this overnight.

What worries me isn't so much what he did to the OP's child (though god knows that's bad enough) but the months and months he spent thinking about this beforehand.

This isn't someone who just found himself suddenly out of control and acting out of character. For months he had been discussing your child in a chatroom where people were getting off on his descriptions. Do you realise how many people in that sort of chatroom arrange to meet up with someone who has access to a small child?

For him to come to the police's attention, he was clearly a regular member. What he said concerned them.

I think there is no doubt your other BIL should be told - preferably by your DH but if not by you. To be honest, I wouldn't want to be married to someone who disagreed with me on that point.

Ratbagcatbag Fri 08-Jun-12 10:27:44

I know imperial this is really hitting home for me, I'm reading this thread as the OP is deciding what to do and I know from brutal experience that keeping quiet could scar a child for life, and there is nothing I can do to influence other than beg the OP to say something.
Maybe for me this is far to close home, but I can't leave it whilst the OP is being bullied and pressured into saying nothing sad

ImperialBlether Fri 08-Jun-12 11:11:20

If I were Roger and found my own parents hadn't told me and didn't want me to know, that would be the end of the relationship with them.

bonnieslilsister Fri 08-Jun-12 23:42:50

Sorry Starry for saying this but

He came to the attention of the police as in one of the chats, Alan mentioned he had a toddler nephew, my son. My son was wearing nappies at the time. Till this day, I do not know the contents of the chats nor the actual sites he was on. I can only guess....

Can you be sure nothing happened before the incidence you mentioned?

Awingandaprayer Sun 10-Jun-12 10:34:59

Yes, nappy fetish is not paedophilia but exposing yourself to a child is not amything to do with that fetish - it is child abuse which can and does escalate to even worse abuse.
It doesn't sound like a straightforward nappy fetish to me therefore. I also doubt very much it was nappy fetish websites the police were monitoring and imagine the PIL are not being straight with you on this one. I would not trust anything the MIL reports back from the therapist unless it is 'the therapist says ALan should have no contact with children including your son and new DN'. Otherwise she's lying or the therapist hasn't been told the full story either.

You need to be sure someone has told your SIL and BiL before the baby is born (though after the exams sounds fair). I agree you shouldn't allow direct contact with your children and Alan and only supervised with the PIL who will not be able to keep the children safe due to their attitude.
I have seen children taken into care because their parents were not able/willing to keep them away from an abuser thinking they could somehow 'supervise' 24/7 and that this would mitigate the risk. This is horrible on many levels but is the correct reaction. However, the other very sad fact is that it is so common for families to close ranks and protect an abuser that often there is not enough evidence for the police to make a prosecution or even for social services to give very clear advice always. Sometimes they also assume that other adults will do the right thing in protecting children and close cases inappropriately. This might be why you have not had stronger advice from them in the past.

monkeymoma Mon 11-Jun-12 11:11:10

sadly I think the OP is taking the PILs word for a lot of things sad
I do not think they are to be trusted. I would even question supervised contact with THEM as for now the OP DOES NOT know jack about Alans history and what caused him to do this, the PILs may not just be protecting Alan, they may be protecting THEMSELVES too, or another family member - you cannot trust them to tell you the extent of abuse in this family, I doubt it starts and ends with the exposure incident! please please please consider this!

PooPooInMyToes Mon 11-Jun-12 12:08:30

Im several pages behind but

Both ILs and DH TRULLY believe there is no danger to children since Alan still lives at home with his parents and believes his parents can adequately supervise Alan and any children at their house at all times.

That is clearly bullshit. I was abused on a regular basis in a place full of people. Its easily done.

monkeymoma Mon 11-Jun-12 12:16:00

I do agree with waiting till the exams are over, then I think the OP should go STRAIGHT to the BIL

DO NOT continue this pointless dialogue with the ILs, they are not telling you the whole truth, they either can't grasp the situation or are actively hiding elements of it. They seem to be getting under your skin and convincing you of things that don't add up so just stop discussing it with them and stop doing "research" based on the shakey questionable info they have given you. You know a fact - that Alan exposed himself, go to the BIL with this fact, leave out the hear say you got from the ILs about adult nappy fetish sites etc, tell them the fact that you know and leave it at that!

Please please please tell, my friend was abused in this way by his much older brother, there had been past issues there too, let them oust you, a couple who care more about people knowing than a child potentially being abused help is awful.

This comment "'he'll not remember in a few years', 'nothing worse happened, he's hardly been affected'" makes me bloody furious, Of course he has been affected, he is old enough to verbalise something that made him feel uncomfortable, he is old enough to remember.

Even if he doesnt remember wtf does that matter? Im thinking of that nursery case recently, some of those were babies who wont remember...

monkeymoma Mon 11-Jun-12 13:02:40

I have very vivid memories from 18 months onwards, can describe the house we briefly rented when I was 18 months exactly, and there aren't many photos as it was just a temp place so its not pieced together from that, but I know the floorplan and can describe every room, I remember where the cardboard boxes were kept, I remember getting told off for crayoning a wall (and which wall). I remember the colour and layout of the bathroom, I remember sitting out on the back step with my godmother entertaining me while my parents unpacked....

"won't remember"???

catinboots Mon 11-Jun-12 13:13:33

Dear god.

I can't believe what I'm reading. You HAVE to tell.

I hope to god that you have told by now op?
Stuff what your dh & pil think, this Alan maybe a direct danger to the new baby so roger & his wife need to know incase there is ever a situation where the baby is left with or near alan.

anychocswilldo Mon 11-Jun-12 13:27:39

You MUST tell your b/sil about this. My God! This is an innocent child u r talking about, so what if pil cut u out of their life. They have condoned their son's behaviour, why would u want anything to do with them? What if this situation was reversed? What if ur dh and pil decided to keep quiet and this new little one is abused by 'Alan' how would u forgive yourself? Please please do the right thing regardless of what ur pil and dh want.

PooPooInMyToes Mon 11-Jun-12 13:29:35

Hillsidemansion did you do anything about it?

PooPooInMyToes Mon 11-Jun-12 13:52:18

Sososohard. Still haven't caught up with whole thread, but can you notify people anonymously? You can't get in trouble if no one can prove it was you!

monkeymoma Mon 11-Jun-12 13:55:03

I don't think you would ever get in trouble for notifying official services like SS or HV that there is a new baby due to arrive into the situation

Obv you'ld get in trouble for nailing a mug shot to every lamp post and telling everyone who would listen

there are different ways of doing the same thing

O2BNormal Mon 11-Jun-12 13:57:11

Roger and his DW must be told. It will make no difference (as baby not due until Nov) if you wait until after Alan's exams, but they must know.

I don't think for a minute it's possible for your ILs to "monitor" Alan all the time, just because he lives at home and has no transport. Do none of them work/ever leave the house? Alan will be 16 soon and then 18 while the baby is still very young.

If I had a baby/toddler and DH had a 15-18 yo brother I'd probably be thinking there was an excellent babysitter all lined up and how is Roger to know any different?

If I was Roger's wife I'd also want to know about ILs role in all this to enable me to consider if they're suitable people to have the care of my child, as they seem to think that what Alan did is no big deal and will cause no harm.

PooPooInMyToes Mon 11-Jun-12 14:02:11

Finally read whole thread!

Op. You seem way too concerned about whether or not your inlaws speak to you again. You gives a flying fuck! Seriously! They are happy to put the children the family at risk, they are scum and your life and your ability to protect your children will be simpler without them in it.

HecateTrivia Mon 11-Jun-12 14:11:06

To the husband - You know nothing of mumsnet if you think that everyone agrees! That is very very very rarely the case. In fact, so rarely that when it does happen, people on the thread comment on it!

It is extremely unfair to not inform your brother and his wife.

You have this information. you know there is a need to safeguard your child.

Your child is watched, he is not alone, you know that there is something to look out for. You are proposing denying your brother the opportunity to do the same. That is a terrible thing. A truly terrible and unloving thing to do to your brother.

Perhaps 'alan' will do nothing. Maybe. But if he does something, and you know that had you told them, they would have taken steps to ensure that their child was not placed in a situation where that could have happened - you would have done a terrible thing to them,

Your child will never be alone with this person because of what you know. how can you even think of hiding it from someone and preventing them from making an informed decision?

If you hide this information, and if he does do something, and if it comes out that you knew in advance and chose to not share this important information - your brother will hate you.

At the end of the day, you have to ask yourself who matters more? Your parents? 'Alan'? Your other brother and his wife? Or the children?

ComradeJing Thu 14-Jun-12 08:01:26

How are you, Op?

QuietNinjaCorgi Thu 14-Jun-12 08:33:24

I hope your dh reads this too. I am fuming with him! He's basically putting Alan's needs above that of his own child. He doesn't deserve to be called a father if he can be so swayed by your pil. If my dh ever ever put someone else before our son i would leave him and/or kill him. He will be putting your son and his unborn nephew in danger.
Stand up for your son and the baby cos it doesn't sound like any other cunt is going to. I am so cross! Why (and this is to dh) would you not do everything in your power to protect your son and a tiny helpless baby? If they are ever abused by this Alan their lives will be ruined. And it would be on your head for going along with your dick parents.
I'm know this is harshly worded but have been in the middle of family abuse issues which have fucked up many lives and if something had been said might have prevented a lot of heartache. Adults in their 60's are still completely screwed up in my family and anyone who fails to protect a child when they could have done is scum. Imo.

StarryCole Thu 14-Jun-12 13:15:06

I'm posting this mobile phone text message transcript with my FIL that happened yesterday. I'm posting it because it feels carthartic and by writing it down, it will help with my anxiety I have been suffering from of late. Feel free to skip this. I shall be posting a further update once I have had time to put my thoughts together.

I shall add I pulled out of a family wedding anniversary very recently (and told PILs why) because I felt emotionally unstable and tbh, after the constant receipt of abusive phonecalls and threats of being disowned, I also told PILs and DH they've angered me enough to want this disclosure out ASAP.

StarryCole Thu 14-Jun-12 13:21:24

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

Your fil is a complete dick, tell the bil and sil and be done with it.
I wouldn't care about these texts he has sent you, he is trying to stop you from telling them.
You won't be causing any destruction, you will be preventing it and of course you should tell any other future expectant woman in the family

You absoloutley did the right thing Starry.

I am speechless at you FIL

"So much for family values. If you insist on going against my wishes"

Alan has the potential to sexually abuse a child and he doesnt want you to go against his wishes?

JustFab Thu 14-Jun-12 13:37:18

Seems like things like this continue to be brushed under the carpet for generation after generation. Your FIL clearly has never been abused in any way and therefore has no understanding of how it can affect someone.

QuietNinjaIsAngry Thu 14-Jun-12 13:37:43

Good for you. I'm sorry your fil is such a wanker. I hope your dh pulls his head out of his arse and backs you up. Big hugs you must be finding this so hard x

PooPooInMyToes Thu 14-Jun-12 13:39:41

Narrow minded!? To not want another child exposed to or worse!

What a cunt!

So you phoned your sil and she had already been told?

MrsSquirrel Thu 14-Jun-12 13:46:29

You absolutely did the right thing Starry.

Sorry it is all so difficult for you. You are very brave.

PooPooInMyToes Thu 14-Jun-12 13:48:48

How did the sil react anyway?

StarryCole Thu 14-Jun-12 14:26:59

Reposted as earlier withdrawn.Here's the txt msg transcript (feel free to skip as posting my thoughts later) with FIL. Some edits have been made but only just to shorten each text posting otherwise msgs content are a true copy.

FIL Time 08:40: I don't think you realise how much upset you are causing and how much more it will escalate if you continue on this path of family destruction.....I implore you to move on for all concerned before it is too late. Please stop and think very hard about the wider picture. I have put up with over 60 years of personal family rejection though no fault of my own. Only you can stop a repeat of it!

Starrycole: And what is it you propose I do and agree with?

Starry Cole: All I'm asking is for SIL & BIL be informed so that they are empowered to protect their children. It is 1000000% the right thing to do bearing in mind the nuclear fallout. I have done nothing wrong AND I am requesting nothing wrong for this action to inform SIL & BIL.

StarryCole: If you believe I am the CAUSE for this family destruction then we continue to disagree. I am NOT the cause or to blame and neither are you or MIL. I will re-engage with your family once SIL and MIL are informed.

FIL: But you would not stop at that, as soon as there is another family member expecting you will start all over again. As I said, look at the bigger picture or do I have to spell it out to you?

Starrycole: I have deeply thought about the big picture.

FIL Time, Time 18:00: I am fed up of texting you, you are not taking any notice of what I am saying. So much for family values. If you insist on going against my wishes, mark my words you will be the loser.

Starrycole: Better me a loser than another child gets harmed.

FIL: Harmed for god-sake. Grow up. Who stopped your son from going upstairs 3 times where she was over last, it wasn't you was it?

This is a completely AND inflammatory lie - Starrycole.*
I did not respond, I went to the movies!!

FIL Time 20:30: Funny how it goes quiet when your parenting skills are being questioned....

* After this, I called my SIL on the phone (you can imagine how I was feeling), 10pm. Extremely brief dialogue, apparently she had already been informed by MIL weekend just gone *

StarryCole Time 21:00: Hopefully we can all move forward now. I'm glad MIL spoke to Roger's wife. Goodnight XXX

FIL: Well I hope you are happy now. You can start planning your next move to destroy my family. I think you are selfish and very narrow minded. At this time, if I ever see you again that would be too soon. That's mild compared to how MIL feels about you......

**No response and I did not at all slag anyone off- Starrycole*

PooPooInMyToes Thu 14-Jun-12 14:29:35

I wondered about the names!

Madmum24 Thu 14-Jun-12 16:12:51

OP you have done the right thing. i believe there is more to this, as someone said before that having a nappy fetish is not illegal, therefore the police would hardly be monitoring someone for this alone.

When I was a bit older than your ds my childminders teenage son exposed himself to me (asking me to touch it, which i declined) and told me not to tell his mum. This stayed with me for a while before I became very upset about it 9I felt bad because I assumed it was my fault). Anyway, my parents got it out of me and the childminder was informed. To cut a long story short, my childminder forced me to admit that i had made it up for attention, and made me apologize to her son and my parents. This feeling of not being believed was absolutely horrible and has stayed with me til now. A few years ago my father brought this up (he was slagging off my mum as they divorced soon after) and said my Mum wanted to brush it uder the carpet because she might not be able to find another childminder in our area! As a parent I just can't uderstand that ............

Anyway, you have done the right thing ((hugs))

lisad123 Thu 14-Jun-12 16:22:18

You have done the right thing. We have no relationship with PIL for different reasons but the stress they caused and the abuse I got was awful. It feels a lot better now we have no contact at all. It's very hard on DH but he came to see that they were wrong and abusive and it wasn't teaching our girls anything and didn't want DDs to suffer same abuse once they were older.

Coconutty Thu 14-Jun-12 16:29:06

Well done, Your FIL is a total twat, how dare he try to make you be sworn to secrecy about his son being a deviant?

You may have saved a child from being assulted.

maytheoddsbeeverinyourfavour Thu 14-Jun-12 16:39:22

Well done, I really admire you for doing the right thing when it would've been so much easier to sweep it under the carpet

Your fil sounds like a controlling bullying twat. What has your DH had to say about the recent developments? Does he know how your fil has been speaking to you? My DH would not stand for anyone talking to me like that including his parents

I think you should take fil up on his offer to not see you again, and if I were you that would include my dc too, they have already proven they don't really care about your dc's well being so it would be very easy for me to cut them out entirely

Please don't let the behaviour of these vile people get to you, you have proven yourself to be an excellent mother and a strong wonderful woman, you should feel proud that you have protected not only your own child but your future dn's too

AmberLeaf Thu 14-Jun-12 16:40:51

Well done OP.

Jux Thu 14-Jun-12 16:41:34

Well, they knew about this before then, didn't they? He implies it was they who stopped your babe going upstairs 3 times themselves, so THEY ALREADY KNEW. If they had told you, YOU would have made sure he didn't go upstairs and then Alan would not have exposed himself to him. So much for their preventive measures. They've just proved they're inadequate.

I would have thought that the most sensible thing to do is inform all members of close family so that this episode is not repeated everytime a new couple get pregnant, but apparently your illogical FIL still thi is that it is better if he and MIL are left to inadequately police the situation.

They are barmy.

Well done you. How are you? Are you OK with this barrage of deflection of blame? This mountain of attempted justification through twisted logic?

How's your dh? (And what did your SIL say?(Me, nosey? Oh yes!))

EldritchCleavage Thu 14-Jun-12 17:00:06

I admire you for doing this OP, in the face of all this nastiness. Rather than facing the same problem every time someone in the family is expecting, I think it would be wise to tell SS that 'Alan' is inadequately monitored by parents desperate to cover everything up and let them deal with it.

AuntieMaggie Thu 14-Jun-12 17:04:13

I don't understand...MIL had already told SIL but FIL was still having a go at you???

Hope you are OK Starrycole you are very brave & did the right thing.

StarryCole Fri 15-Jun-12 14:31:00

To AuntieMaggie and Mumsnetter's

This entire episode has been about power struggles - more on that later.

I approached PIL’s to give them the opportunity to step up and do the right thing with their own family. I was told to fuck off in as many ways you can think of. DH. stepped in to moderate and get us all to agree to meet at ‘some point in the future’ to discuss ‘next steps’. This was agreed at the start but I was constantly being attacked. What do I mean by attacked? Here’s just a few of the adjectives they’ve described me over text messages/ phonecalls:

‘‘home wrecker’, ‘bad mother’, ‘selfish’, ‘malicious’, ‘ignorant’, ‘narrow minded’, ‘unqualified’, ‘low morales’ , ‘bitch’, ‘gun trigger’

Last Friday, I advised my DH to communicate to his parents the reason why we were not going to attend a family wedding because if I did attend, I was going to tell SIL/BIL right there and then (ooh..,imagine if there was a microphone - don’t put it past me). This is extremely vitriolic behaviour for me to even suggest it but hey, it WORKED. The very next day, my MIL get off her arse/head out of the sand and did what she ought to have done without ANYONE’s input and disclosed the secrets to her other expectant DIL/my SIL and Roger’s wife.

Of course MIL didn’t tell the rest of us and let her husband continue with the abusive txt messages. I put a stop to that by finding out for myself and picking up the phone to SIL. (see text message transcript earlier).

StarryCole Fri 15-Jun-12 14:38:38

And SIL’s reaction to me calling her? if you really wanted to know our conversation was extremely brief. She said she knew what I was calling about as MIL disclosed already and I asked her if it was out of order for me to call her and there was a sharp intake of breath and then this response I can understand why MIL is upset.

No questions, no comment, no niceties, just a very short call.

StarryCole Fri 15-Jun-12 14:43:53

As for my DH, he has little sympathy for me as he feels undermind by everyone and that I'm to blame for the receipt of these text messages and phonecalls from PIL and for responding to them. He says he always agreed with me and had my back and I didn't have to put myself in a position of being attacked. I accept that because I am the type of person who can stand up for herself and give it as good as she gets.

DH trully believes if I had allowed him to handle it, we would have avoided this nuclear fallout. He has shut this out and refuses to cut ties with his family whilst I have been officially disowned. He says he will do his best to 'repair things' however.

They're all nasty, horrible people your "D"H included and if I were you I would be kicking his sorry arse back to his toxic family.

Lovetats Fri 15-Jun-12 14:50:09

Are you sure that MIL has told SIL the truth? Why would your SIL be short with you??

It strikes me that MIL might have said that you are slandering Alan?

EldritchCleavage Fri 15-Jun-12 14:50:09

Don't go and see PIL. Don't let your DS go and see PIL (not even with his father).
I don't think you should just accept you brought the abuse on yourself. It is extreme and revolting. I really would be planning my exit from this nasty family.
Best of luck with everything OP.

1950sHousewife Fri 15-Jun-12 14:53:56

Starry - you have done the right thing throughout.

Your PILs and even your SIL sound like controlling frightening people. I would certainly stay away from them. And personally, I would make them aware that if they start slagging you off to all and sundry you will have no option but to defend yourself, which means that unfortunately Alan will be once again dragged into this.

I would tell your DH and PILs that there is now a line in the sand under this one and that they should keep respectfully silent about you and you should try and do the same.

Well done.

Well done Starry, I hope Roger & Mrs Roger will come to see how difficult this has been for you & that they are suitably grateful. it would be interesting to talk to SIL quietly on her own to tell her the truth & see what her personal feelings are as opposed to the party line she has been fed by the IL's.

I would be beyond angry if that were my DH's reaction however & I would not be going anywhere near the IL's till hell freezes over for a loooooonnnnngggg time.

Jux Fri 15-Jun-12 16:07:23

I hope that Mr & Mrs Roger have been told the truth not some glossed-over minimized thing where you have been made out as a complete nutjob. SIL's response doesn't sound like she has any real idea of what has happened, unless Roger has treated her in a similar way to how the PILs have treated you.

DH may have got your back but it certainly didn't look like it. He needs to understand that sometimes there isn't a 'Tony Blair' middle way, sometimes there is a right way and a wrong way, and your PILs were wrong.

Good luck dealing with these vile people, really. Rather you than me, though.

anychocswilldo Fri 15-Jun-12 16:27:19

Well done op, you have done the right thing. I'm sorry your pil are being so evil and your dh s being so unsupportive! You can hold your head high despite the fact your sil sounds like an ungrateful cow I wouldn't put up with any mre abuse from these people, I would inform dh that if there is any more verbal abuse u will b informing the police. What do u have to lose? I would also consider yourself lucky that u and ds are away from such an abusive on many levels controlling and toxic family. It's a shame this was left to u, forgive me but your dh sounds spineless to firstly not have taken this situation in hand and to have allowed u to b spoken to and treated in this way.

monkeymoma Fri 15-Jun-12 16:33:47

well done!

however I instantly thought the same as lovetats! did the SIL specify WHAT she was told? sounds suspiciously like your MIL twisted an innocent spin on it...

Your FIL is an ARSE, why why WHY does your DH want to fix things between you, please OP do not let your child grow up hearing it's mother being called all those names! I would have NOTHING to do with them, there would be no fallout as I would choose to opt out!

You need more protection from this from your DH, if he is still talking about middle grounds etc he does NOT have your back, he should make it very clear to them that they are totally in the wrong and have wronged you.

StarryCole Fri 15-Jun-12 16:51:06

Thank you for your support Mumsnetter’s.

SIL definitely knows the details, in case you were wondering. MIL would not want to risk these ‘dirty little secrets’ coming from me and at some point in the future, I’m will be following this up with her.

And do I give a f^ck what SIL/PIL/DH thinks about? And for christ’s sake.... about Alan’s feelings?!! I hate to not apologise and spell it out to them but no, I actually do not give one sh^t cos surprise surprise....none of this has ever been about you!! [angry they have never ever been able to see that!]. And PIL, wow, thank you for telling me I have been disowned! Thank you very much for saving me the effort to tell you the same!!

Honestly, I don’t give a f^ck, I don’t feel ok and I feel angry so I have decided to seek counselling.....to try and get to grips with my anger and mess me up.

You know, I did not realise how family can so easily turn against each other like this. They are toxic parents willing to cover up child abuse by normalising Alan’s damaging behaviour. They must be a contribution somehow to explain the way he is.

For all of you that have been brave enough to tell me your story, I did this for you, my kids and all my unborn nephew and nieces.

And Alan - you are being watched.

AddictedtoCrunchies Fri 15-Jun-12 17:15:39

Starry, I've just read the whole thread and could not leave without posting.

You did the right thing. and are worth a million of your toxic in laws.

I salute you. thanks

AKE2012 Fri 15-Jun-12 17:25:34

Starry
I have been following this from the beginning and i would just like to applaud you and say well done. You did the right thing no matter what your DH and his family think.

You are much better off without toxic people like those.

Way to go you.

JustFab Fri 15-Jun-12 17:27:39

StarryCole - you are awesome. You have done the right thing. You have protected your son and if no one else can see that then fuck 'em.

You did the right thing. There is no question of that. Please, never doubt yourself whatever they may say or do in the future.

feedthegoat Fri 15-Jun-12 18:29:53

Wow, I thought my inlaws were just barking mad but it would seem that it is just the stock response to attack the person who is trying to tackle the problems. Looks like our tales are panning out the same although I don't envy you the difficulties you are having with your dh. At least mine also wanted to tackle the issues regarding his brother.

Stay strong, you are in the right. You will be doing better than me though if you ever manage to repair your relationship with your in laws. Don't think I'll ever manage it. I also don't think they will ever accept bil is paedophile either so there you go. Sometimes other peoples behaviour is so bad they don't deserve a place in your life.

monkeymoma Fri 15-Jun-12 18:48:05

Starry, you are so many many many times better than those people!

Being accepted/liked by them would come at a price that a decent person wouldn't pay! (and you didn't, good for you!)

you did good x

monkeymoma Fri 15-Jun-12 18:49:51

and IMO being disliked by a lowlife is a compliment! if they see you as a kindered spirit you need to worry, FIL is a lowlife controlling bully!

monkeymoma Fri 15-Jun-12 18:50:18

kindred blush

iwantavuvezela Fri 15-Jun-12 18:50:58

Well done for doing this ....... It was a Todd and brave thing to do ...

iwantavuvezela Fri 15-Jun-12 18:51:23

Good that should be (autocorrect!)

Jux Fri 15-Jun-12 19:49:36

Good on you, Starry. Admirable.

CowboysGal Fri 15-Jun-12 20:04:25

starry sorry for everything that you are going through but well done for standing up to protect young children who cannot protect themselves. I would echo what some other posters have said and ensure SIL knows everything that you do as you cannot be sure what it is exactly she has been told.
One thing I do wonder about is that the first text from FIL said
"I have put up with over 60 years of personal family rejection though no fault of my own. Only you can stop a repeat of it!
Is this right? because if it is it says to me that 'Alan' isn't the only one who has something he'd rather people didn't know about

Rikalaily Fri 15-Jun-12 20:08:40

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

AllOverIt Fri 15-Jun-12 20:24:50

Wow. You've definitely done the right thing starry. Your ILs sound horrific. What an awful situation sad

anychocswilldo Fri 15-Jun-12 20:36:40

I sincerely hope your husband reads this op, i agree with Rikalaily Has he defended you or your pov at all? I would be seriously rethinking my whole marriage if my dh allowed this kind of thing to continue. Its a good job your dc's have you to look out for them

somedayillbesaturdaynite Fri 15-Jun-12 21:02:58

Starry, fil's 1st message about 60 years of being disowned and history repeating itself shock

Sreams to me that he has been in Alan's situation himself

Jux Fri 15-Jun-12 21:22:36

Exactly. Very suspicious.

StarryCole Fri 15-Jun-12 21:26:59

somedayillbesaturdaynite, Cowboygals & Jux, my FIL and his 60years family rejection - Yah....there are more skeletons in the closet waiting to be discovered. Sorry, I do not have those details but obvious he hasn't delt with his suffering by the way he is rejecting me.

InstructionsToTheDouble Fri 15-Jun-12 21:31:54

Message deleted by Mumsnet for breaking our Talk Guidelines. Replies may also be deleted.

StarryCole Fri 15-Jun-12 22:10:58

There many men (and women) who are weak/ don't have the courage to deal with things and let the cycle of abuse continue..it's so much easier to not 'rock the boat'. To tell you the truth - I used to be one of them. My ex had a very racist sister & parents. We were a mixed race couple (he is white/caucasian) . I went out with him for 4 years and besotted with him to my mental detriment. Thinking the fairytale knight he might never become. Eventually he left me because he couldn't cope with the pressure. The spineless gut-less-of-a-man he still is

Not once did he ever stick up for me, especially his sister who went out of her way to make my life hell and completely voicing her disapproval of 'my sort' and that 'we had no right to be here'. Never mind I've probably paid more tax in this country than the entire family put together. I puke how I put up with this and I sometimes sit with rage how I never ever stood up for myself or voiced my views. Sometimes I think of writing a strong worded letter to his parents/sister and posting it through their doors (personally) to tell them exactly what I think of them (with scientific evidence that their genealogy came from sub-Saharan Africa .....but pointless because they just don't have the brain cells to process that).

I'm going off tangent here.... disclosing child abuse, there is no right way or wrong way to disclose. There is only one option and that is to disclose. The fact that my PIL and to a certain extent - my DH, even questioned the disclosure, meant I was out to be hung. Not one ounce of rationality verbalised to me. Not once did they chime the same as the Mumsnetter's opinions here which is over 200 of them. Crazy, dangerous people.

Lessons learned: If you see injustice, speak out - the world needs people like us to make it a less dangerous place for our children to live in. rant over Red wine anyone? It's that time of night LOL grin.

HappySunflower Fri 15-Jun-12 22:35:35

I've just sat and read all of this from start to finish.

To Starry: You are a bloody marvel and I would be truly proud to have someone like you as an Auntie to my children
To your DH: You should be proud of your wife. She has done the most difficult thing that she may ever do, but she has undoubtably done the right thing.

It is very seldom that people agree on Mumsnet; in fact this is one of the few threads I have ever seen such a consensus of opinion- I hope that tells you something.

somedayillbesaturdaynite Fri 15-Jun-12 22:40:10

Starry, i honestly think that one day your DS will thank you for standing up for a child's right not to be at risk of abuse. I would be tempted to print this off and keep it somewhere safe for future years. Good luck to you and your DS xx

chipmonkey Fri 15-Jun-12 22:53:09

Starry, well done!
I have a 15 year old. Even though he might seem like a big boy to you, he is still my baby.smile However, although it is my responsibility to make sure no harm comes to him, it is also my responsibility to make sure he harms no-one. When he was two, I didn't allow him to poke babies in the eye. When he was five, he was reprimanded for scratching a three year old on the face and given to understand there would be hell to pay if it happened again. I monitor his internet use! I do find it hard to put myself in your PIL's shoes because thank God he doesn't seem to have any strange tendencies but if he did something like that, I would expect the child's mother would scream blue murder and would not get up in arms with her if she did, I would be so ashamed,

Tell your dh not to bother trying to repair your relationship with your PILs. Tell them neither you nor ds want anything to do with them. Let him got visit the dragon's lair if he so wishes but life is too short to keep people like this in your life.

tasmaniandevilchaser Mon 18-Jun-12 21:17:51

starry I have been lurking and just wanted to say you are wonderful. Now you know exactly how toxic your ILs are, you can steer well clear of them.

Jux Mon 18-Jun-12 21:50:07

I damn well hope your dh appreciates you, Starry.

Oppsididitagain Wed 20-Jun-12 18:14:34

I'm glad you told and admire you doing it I expect it wasn't an easy thing. Bottom line you did the right thing not just for the younger children but also for the 15 yo all are children and need to be protected some from others and some from themselves. Alan being in a possition to abuse other children is in it's self not only abusive to the child he abuses but also to him his parents missguided attempt to hide was just plainly crap for everyone. You totally did the right thing

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