OMG...childcare mentally damages children!!(96 Posts)
Just found this site, ok it is actively encouraging stay at home mums but it has complied a list of scientific evidence from many different areas to back their claims up.
Site here: http://ftmuk.wordpress.com/childcare-research/
The research offered up states that:
Nursery children arrive at school with bad attitude
High working hours lead to family breakdown
Children under three are clearly better off being cared for by their mothers.
Daycare increases maternal employment but not family income
Children in daycare from infancy are less compliant, more aggressive and more likely to have behavioural problems.
Mothers going back to work early leads to slower emotional development in their children
Children in daycare from infancy are less compliant, more aggressive and more likely to have behavioural problems.
Away from mothers care between 1-5 increase chances of problems later in life
Its such a scary read but so much of my instinct tells me it is true.
Yeah well if its a choice between those things maybe happening and my children not eating I know which id choose.
I haven't read it but am fairly sure it's bollocks.
no mention of the impact woring fathers have on child development then? no? blame it all on the mothers as usual.
Every point is crap
I'm a lawyer, I went to uni, i went to day care
So much of your instinct tells you it's true?!?
Oh do behave
Are you a journo?
My DD has been in nursery since 6 months old do she's obviously fucked then.
Perhaps you could take her OP, being as you're so wonderful, she'll be much better off with you.
There is always plenty of crap on the internet to back up every view point. You have picked a website set up by people who feel that mothers should be at home full time with their kids. Its hardly going to be an impartial source of information.
You make your decisions and I will make mine.
Its such a scary read but so much of my instinct tells me it is true.
Are you this breathy and shocked in real life?
Do you use childcare for your children?
Wow MyBum you are posting this all over the place. Have you tried AIBU yet?
Sunday is a day of rest.
We dont want bun fights today.
This has been done to death .
Am going to look for a thread that is less inflammatory and less likely to upset people.
Are you bored OP?
Gosh I hope all single fathers reading this article realise that their children are screwed, as a^ mother's^ care is so vital to their development and their own input neglibible. How scary to think of all those neglected children dumped in childcare that will torment your own perfectly raised children!
There is a lovely house porn thread going on NannyPlum, far more interesting.
I wonder if this will be discussed by our dear friend mr wright this week....
Look, all this research shows that young children are best cared for by any set up that is Consistent and Caring.
So no, being 12 hours daily in creche with numerous different staff is not good.
Being in one environment with a caring, loving minder who minds you for and gets to know you and love you is ideal.
But yes parents make the choice they feel is best for them.
And since each parent is raising 1-5 children say, and not 10,000 they will never know what makes a statisical difference, they will just do their best, and that is usually adequate. Not always perect but good enough.
So no judgements.
There is evidence to suggest that for SOME children starting nursery young (under the age of 1) and being there for over 20 hours a week can cause SOME attachment issues for children. Emphasis on the SOME, for most it will have no long term negative problems.
Well, my DC's go to a lovely childminder during the week whilst I am at work. She takes them to the park, library, museum and to play centres after school, does baking and craft activities with them, lets them help care for her pets and they are extremely happy there. DD received an award at school recently for consistantly good behaviour and both DC's are doing very well educationally, so I can not relate to any of those statements in the OP.
As you say, this is from a site that actively encourages SAHMs so maybe possible that it is going to be a little biased?
Message withdrawn at poster's request.
OP already tried to resurrect thread from July 2011 on same subject...
what a load of shite, and I say that as a sahm
Thanks jajas OP clearly has a problem with working mothers ... He/she is either a journo or feeling inadequate enough to try and make others feel crap too ...
Oh well, that's my dcs fucked then.
And I say that as a SAHM ! I hate this kind of wind up material from attention seekers.
I have read a book (How Not To F*ck Them Up, by Oliver James, seeing as you ask...) that claims 1:1 responsive care for children under the age of 3 is the best way to ensure healthy emotional development. It does say that this could be from a mother, father, grandparent or someone totally unrelated, as long as the care is responsive.
I'm not sure how I feel about that or how it will affect my parenting choices in the future (I'm currently on maternity leave), but just thought I'd throw it out there...
Thankyou Sirzy, Silvermachine and HereIgo for your measured, balanced and informative replies.
oh and mummybare too. Thanks I appreciate your input. As to the rest of the comments...It does appear that to even raise this issue causes so much vitriol and personal attack that many are so blinded by their emotions that they cannot string together a reasonable argument without resorting to personal insults....so sad.
I feel for the little boy I look after, let's hope he is not in prison by the time he turns 18.
who doesn't have an anger studied at Cambridge and is a lawyer. Guess what? She had a nanny too. Not only turns she out to be a wonderful person, a great employer - no she is also a wonderful and caring mother.
I look after my mindee 60h a week, I truly adore him and we do lots of activities. Don't see why that would harm.
What a lot of rubbish!
Can I thoroughly recommend this absolutely side-splitting email dialogue (here) between one of the members of Full-Time Mothers and one of the organisers, about the difficulty of attending meetings of Full-Time Mothers if you are, er, a full-time mother?
Particularly hilarious is the question as to whether 'Daddy could take a day off work' to look after the children to allow the member to attend the meeting. Apparently although her partner 'fully supports' the aims of Full-Time Mothers, it's not possible for him to take some time off work. Because his work is obviously much too important.
If parents are going to play a part in public/community life - and I think it's vital that they do - childcare is going to be shared among the community. I think it's a good thing that childcare can be paid (albeit poorly). Parents have always worked, childcare has always been shared out. The alternative is children working alongside their parents, tbh, or out in the streets for days on end. That's what used to happen. Thank your lucky stars that childcare in this country is so good and work to make it better, not to ban it completely!
What is the size of the measured effect? For example, if children who had been in FT childcare were consistently 0.01% less compliant, 0.02% more aggressive and 0.015% more likely to have behavioural problems then the research would show that they were "less compliant, more aggressive and less likely to have behavioural problems", but it wouldn't be an effect that any sane parent would be losing sleep over.
Also most of your points duplicate each other, just to make a longer list.
Also I bet you a quarter pound of licquorice allsorts that the site makes no mention of the well-respected and comprehensive Columbia University study from a couple of years ago that found no ill effects whatsoever. Does it?
So much of my instinct tells me it is bollocks, and bollocks-with-an-agenda at that. And I speak as a SAHM.
Oops, sorry, you never suggested banning it
My mam was a SAHM AND I went to nursery part time.
I'm fucked psychologically but I have a great career. Who should I blame?
By the way, do your children watch television? Because if so I suggest staying away from most of the research on the effects of that. If you find childcare research scary, TV research will reduce you to a gibbering shadow of your former self.
One of your point is that dc's in childcare are less compliant. Good. I don't want my dc's to be compliant. I want them to think for themselves and challenge where appropriate. I have 2 lovely independant happy little girls wh go to nursery 2 days a week. Part of their confidence and independence has come from that nursery.
OMG... anybody can publish anything on the internet!
I will try to string together a reasonable argument without being patronising
Actually no I can't because your original post presents such wooly research that it only merits insults
OMG...lack of work mentally damages women!!
Sadly, as no one was offering to pay my mortgage or buy me food, I worked full time when my daughter was 7 months old. She seems ok. She isn't aggressive.
But given that she spent her time in nursery playing with her friends and rolling around in torn up newspaper (she liked this) and wasn't stitching footballs in some sweatshop, or worse, I couldn't give a flying fuck about your research.
She has already had a better life than 99.9% of children on this planet. and that is the rather more shocking statistic that I wish more of you Atwood dystopian wannabes would get worked up about.
oooo...insults in an ethics thread...so lowbrow...I just pointed out a source of information and how it made me feel bad.
It's not sad at all.
You posting this all over mumsnet and dadsnet is sad.
Barely concealed attempt to start a bun fight and patronize mums with kids in nursary......
Someone with more motivation could link to any number of reports that say good nursary can be positive for a child's development and future achievement in school.
I would read the original research and not someone else's selected high (low) lights. Last time I did that the results were pretty mixed, but I can't be bothered to do it again. (Also bare in mind that much of the research is from America where children typically start daycare much earlier and lots of states have low carer:child ratios.)
The research doesn't back any of this website up.
But well done for promoting it
Well - all I know is that I have stayed at home since the birth of dd (10) and ds(7) and what thanks have I got for it from them - zilch!
They are the fussiest eaters, have huge tantrums, want everything they're not allowed and think they are my equal and can make demands 24/7.
I think they would have been far better behaved and balanced if they had been in child care and I had gone back to work for at least some of the week.
There are pros and cons to all situations but I truly believe that childcare does not mentally harm children - as long as they have the appropriate care when they're at home with their parent/s.
There are so many variables for each family. It is impossible to know how true such research can be. I remember reading that bestseller The secrets of Happy Children, which in one breath said mummy and only mummy should raise a child, anything else leads to schizophrenia (I exaggerate but, y'know...) Next breath it said we should all be like some village in Patagonia where the whole village raises the kids who never see their parents from dawn to dusk as they roam free, cared for by others.
I really do loathe scaremongering research. (Speaking as a mum who chose to stay at home and be with her children.) I watch children all around who I've known from birth, with all different kinds of upbringing, and there's no empirical evidence that the ones who went to childminders or nurseries fare less well.
What probably does make a difference is levels of stress at home. Better to have a happy working mum and enough money in the home than a depressed mum tied to the stove and freaking out about bills.
Each family has its own best way to manage life. As long as we all take responsibility for what that is, we can ditch generalisations that demonise.
It's a non debate for many, many families as childcare/having to stay at home is a fact of life due to family finances.
It made you feel bad eh? Good thing you don't read any wider than dodgy Internet sites about relentlessly parochial first world 'problems' or your head would probably explode.
I am a Childminder and if the children in my care started school with a bad attitude, then I'm sure I wouldn't be getting references from their reception teachers when parents are looking for childcare!
The children in my care learn to be compliant, because they have to adapt to taking turns with both babies and older children.
The children learn to experience and enact a broad range of emotions in their home environment and at my house. They are actively encouraged to express these emotions, so I can't see how this slows their emotional development.
Not sure about later life yet, because I have only been doing this for 12 yrs so far.
Of course I'm biased, because I'm a childcare provider, but ...
Saying that it's bollocks is hardly a personal insult.
I thought this was an ethics forum...where emotive subjects could be discussed without recourse to personal insults...some really helpful replies from others though.
DS in nursery three days a week since about 11m (now 2 1/2). So far he is fab. No attitude problems, very good communication, I could go on. The nursery is great and he loves going - I think it works well for us as I am happy having a bit of work time and a bit of home time and he possibly does more varied things because he isn't just with me all the time. Also he can make more mess at nursery and I don't have to clean it up...
As for me working not increasing the family income, that's nonsense. If I wasn't making a profit after paying the fees I wouldn't be doing it.
Horses for courses if you ask me.
What personal insults? Saying the extreme and unsubstantiated claims of the website you reference are bollocks isn't a personal insult. It's insulting the biased interpretation of the research. And quite right too.
Why did you namechange again?
Minniebar saying it is bollocks is not a personal insult, I respect your opinion.
However: "Oh do behave"; "Are you this breathy and shocked in real life?"
"How scary to think of all those neglected children dumped in childcare that will torment your own perfectly raised children" "feeling inadequate enough to try and make others feel crap too" "Actually no I can't because your original post presents such wooly research that it only merits insults" "You posting this all over mumsnet and dadsnet is sad. (Actually someone else posted it on dadsnet)
"Good thing you don't read any wider than dodgy Internet sites about relentlessly parochial first world 'problems' or your head would probably explode."
These are not comments I would expect to find in an ethics forum.
And I haven't name changed...I am new. Check with the mods...
Yes your bum does look big.
There is also research which contradicts the points laid out in the OP.
So there is no single ethical issue here. Just a load of parents doing their best with the hand that life has dealt them. Demonising some of them on the basis of selective quotations from another web-site with a clear partisan agenda really does nothing helpful in terms of the ethos of this site.
you were clarice about an hour ago
Oh, yawn yawnity yawn yawn.
I'm just off to get a takeaway. Anyone want extra prawn crackers?
Well, I would not expect inane pap served up as 'research, in an 'ethics forum' but I guess I am just going to have to suck it up.
Noddy...you obviously have'nt checked with the mods...
Spero...have you read the information on the site...some serious research involving thousands of children from a variety of sources....
Medtrina...all I did was point towards a site, stated how it made me feel and and asked for thoughts....how is that demonising.
It appears that a number of you appear to be unable to discuss these issues or this research either for or against in an ethical manner.
What a pile of old cobblers.
Well bith muy children have been in childcare and show none of th problems that you have quoted in your OP.
Well, my instinct tells me that bad childcare is bad for children and I'm struggling to find how the quality of the setting was accounted for in any if this research.
I don't think that choosing whether to use childcare or not is really an ethical question, is it?
I think the demonisation comes from the bias of the site, and your support of it.
Families...yes it is as it involves taking a decision regarding a child's welfare. The ethical principles involved are beneficence and non-maleficence.
Meditrina...I would say that it was challenging reading.
It is site with an agenda. Do you understand why it is dangerous to rely on such 'research'?
Nursery children arrive at school with bad attitude children that have never been to childcare arrive at school completely hopeless
High working hours lead to family breakdown rows about money are the number one reason for divorce, therefore one parent not working outside the home would contribute to these rows
Children under three are clearly better off being cared for by their mothers.*Children are clearly better off being cared for by someone that is interested in childcare and someone that wants a job in childcare is clearly interested in that job, therefore will be a good child care provider for a child*
Daycare increases maternal employment but not family income childcare increases the economy of the country
Children in daycare from infancy are less compliant, more aggressive and more likely to have behavioural problems. children that stay home can be aggressive and have behavioural problems
Mothers going back to work early leads to slower emotional development in their children what sample of children going into nursery or childcare have been tested and at what age?
Children in daycare from infancy are less compliant, more aggressive and more likely to have behavioural problems. this has been repeated, why make a point twice?
Away from mothers care between 1-5 increase chances of problems later in life *what number of adults have been tested? What was the controlled groups numbers and at what age where the adults tested and compared?
I am and always have been a sahm and can see that the info in the op is a load of propagandist tripe, I mean really. If it was clearly detrimental it would be obvious. You wouldn't need some misogynistic claptrap to make you feel shitty.
Well, it is a valid question and no reason why it cannot be debated. To pretend all childcare options are automatically equal or to assume that childcare is never a compromise between a child's needs and their parents needs is ridiculous. People should be allowed to research it and come to informed opinions. Of course, the problem is that it is close to impossible to exclude other variables from this kind of research.
My own instinct is that child care factories (and some of the nurseries that I have seen are close to this) are not good for young children. However, I cannot see how it could matter whether a child was at home with its mother, father, grandparent, nanny or even a caring childminder without too many mindees. I can say that our 2.10 year old is even now tired after his 3 hours of pre school nursery and needs to come home and relax with his family for at least a while.
Just because it says "research" does not mean it is reliable or that the findings are universally true. I find it baffling that people take what has been found in some "research" as gospel.
Whatever happened to common sense?
Everyone has different "common sense" about this issue!
Sorry, OP, maybe I'm missing something but I don't see the ethics of deciding whether to use childcare or not. There are lots of other considerations (personal, financial, societal...) and there may be ethical issues (nurseries paying minimum wage to workers in central London, for example) but the decision on whether one parent stays at home rather than work doesn't raise any ethical concerns for me.
ivy...I suggest you go to the site and take some time to read the research articles...it is obvious that you haven't.
How come, out of my 3 older children, the only outright aggressive one is the child who had the least proff childcare?
There are references with other conclusions to look at, if you're truly open-minded:
"...pre-school can play an important part in combating social exclusion and promoting inclusion by offering disadvantaged children, in particular, a better start to primary school."
"High quality child care appears to provide a small boost to academic performance, perhaps by fostering the early acquisition of school readiness skills."
High quality Preschools result in higher achievement at school.
"...child care is not a substitute for home care, but rather provides children with experiences in a different setting".
Its a load of old bollocks, my children went to nursery 3 days a week, and my eldest is gifted and talented in literacy, the sweetest gentlest boy, no aggression at all, funny, kind, thoughtful and a general superstar. He loved nursery and the staff loved him. It was great. OP it's a load of crap and I will assume you are a journalist looking for a story. If you were a mother who had to go back to work or shock horror, wanted to go back to work to reclain a little bit of you, or return to a professional job you had worked and studied a long time for, or just to pay the bills you would not be on MN with this crap. HTH!
The answers are not on the site and you still haven't answered why you repeat your argument
Sounds like a pile of bobbins to me.
Ok op, riddle me this.
When my daughter went to school in Brixton, a Kids Company mini bus stopped off most afternoons to take six of her classmates off to activities. These weren't the children in care. These were the children living with their mums (who were probably very close to being taken into care).
You cannot simply blithely state that every child under three is better off with their mother. Motherhood comes in many different styles and shapes. Children need good, consistent, safe care. For at least half my daughters class mates, sadly they were NOT getting that from their mothers.
do you know what I am sure this has been done to death over the years. OP makes it sound revolutionary. Stop trying to cause an argument.
It's rather tiresome, the way some posters shout 'journalist' at anyone who makes a daft comment, or starts a daft thread. I am a journalist, as are many people who are on this site because we are mothers and enjoy a natter as much as anyone else. In the early days every other poster was a hack - probably has something to do with the founders being in the same line of work.
I really can't see what purpose this thread would serve for a news story or feature. Most journalists are reasonably bright. If you were thick as two short planks, you wouldn't be able to work out what was going on or what the story was. Some journalists can be manipulative but ffs, stupid threads are NOT commonly the work of journalists, no more than they are the work of accountants or insurance brokers.
btw, I have interviewed MNers for articles - I identified myself as a journalist, explained what the feature would be and asked politely.
My children have never been to day care or nursery, I loathe them, but I made my choices and I am delighted with them. They all went to an amazing pre school from 2ish. I don't really care what anyone else does.
I am still eager for the op to come back and explain to me how this top flight research has definitively shown that children under three are always better off with their mothers.
There are lots of local authorities with massive holes in their budgets who will no doubt be overjoyed to learn they can now drop most of their very expensive care proceedings.
Message withdrawn at poster's request.
My son has been going to nursery since he was just over 1 year old & a happier, more confident, sociable little boy you couldn't find (except at the moment when he's tantrumming!) it's just another dig to get mothers to feel crap about their parenting choices....seems whatever you do is wrong.
Mine has been going since she was too and is mad as a bag of ferrets
This isn't an ethical dilemma, fatarse.
If you wanted a debate you should have osoted some decent links rather than to a site with an agenda.
<pops head back in to see if the arguments still raging>
Friday night entertainment!!
The children of working parents do better. Most recent studies prove this. Housewives damage children. Get back to work. We need many more women in positions of power. It is bad for everyone if you stay home.
I'm a sahm but my mum put me into childminders care then nursery then school then after school clubs, summer clubs etc etc.
The childminder - She once arrived an hour early to pick up my brother and I and found my brother in his buggy, shoes and jacket on, sleeping - Over 1 hour before pick up time!
Everything else - as a shy child I always hid behind my mum, clinged onto her even around family events... up until I was around 13! lol
I hated school - both primary and secondary - I experienced a bit of bullying, I was left out alot, found it hard to make friends etc
After school clubs - the women working there told my mother on countless occassions that it was obvious I didn't enjoy being there! Eventually she took us out of it and allowed us to walk down the road from school to grandmas house.
Whilst at secondary school sometimes we would come home to empty house, I started truanting and would be scared to go home in case mum was home early...
My daughter is 3, I have left her in the care of others only a few times in her entire life for an hour or two - with her grandparents always, as I don't trust anyone else!
I am really dreading sending her to nursery but I am being pressured into it by everyone.
I had an idea to homeschool her as I am religious and I don't feel there are any suitable schools nearby, the ones that are close to being suitable are fee paying schools.. However I mention the idea and was completely laughed at by everyone.
I feel like there is ALOT of pressure to do things the done way - fobbing children off on others, whereas I want to be there for my children where no one was there for me..
I think it's all very personal decisions to make everyone will do things differently we all had different experiences etc..
As I understand it, early years childcare is incredibly common in many Scandanavian countries. Their societies seem to be doing pretty well.
40% of children who go to nursery for more than 6.2 hours will dye their hair without their parents consent when they reach teenage years.
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