I don't want to offend, or be flamed, but I am curious.
I've seen several threads where posters have terminated a pregnancy when they have found out their baby has Down Syndrome, and then gone on to ttc a "normal" baby.
Now, I don't personally know any one with DS or any parents of children with DS, so I genuinely don't know the difficulties they face. Is life with downs syndrome really so bad? Or is it the thought of a child growing into an adult with SN and having no one to care for them when the parents are no longer capable?
Out of all the things I worried about when pregnant, downs syndrome wasn't one of them.
I didn't move it here and don't object thread to be moved wherever, so not sure why you all are having a go at me. All I said was this may be why MNHQ moved it here.
What I said was re people implying that one side of the debate is offensive/hurtful. My point was that if one is so fragile on the topic of DS, possibly because they have a child with DS, they should refrain from threads on DS rather than demand that others don't talk.
sorry cote, I wasn't meaning to have a go but was taking issue with your point that 'such people are less likely to frequent Antenatal Testing threads than Chat threads, and in that case, MNHQ might be right in thinking that this thread would cause more hurt if left in Chat.' When i was 'hurt, vulnerable and grieving my loss' this was exactly where I came, sorry if I wasn't clear.
CoteDAzur, it's not that easy, we wish it was. When you are going through the whole testing process there is a compulsion to know everything, and to hurt yourself with the facts. Having a thread that debated the ethics behind terminating a DS pregnancy is harmful to the mothers who are trying to make that decission. Mainly because she is in a very 'self-hating' place as it is, and to have people voice their opinions (which they have every right to voice in the correct forum) in a place this mother has gone to seek support and refuge will not offer the support she needs. It was very short sighted of MNHQ to think that placing it here was a good idea.
I obviously mis-read your message as I am feeling extremely protective at the moment. Emotions run high in the AT/C forum as I am sure you have figured out, which is why this thread should be moved.
I don't judge people who do or don't terminate for various conditions. It's a matter of personal choice and personal circumstances.
I was told when I was 35 weeks pg that my son's condition was incompatible with life and was offered to go to the panel for a termination.
We chose not to. When DS was delivered I couldn't stop crying and was shaking uncontrollably and was like this for a few days after the birth. I knew that DH's life would go back to some sort of normality and it was mine that would change the most. I was devastated as I thought I'd never be able to work again and I love my job.
As it turns out, DS has made dramatic leaps forward and is no way near as bad as the docs said. His condition isn't incompatible with life and he's doing brilliantly. I have gone back to work part time and my employer is understanding. BUt I do feel trapped and worried about the future. I know some kids with his condition are unable to live independently and I'm already worried about that. I compare DS to what his peers can do and find it hard when people ask why he isn;t walking/ talking yet.
I guess what I'm saying is that no one should judge people's decisions, because there's no right or wrong answer and we need to support people with whatever they decide.
Wasn't going to post here again, as didn't want to bump it, though hopefully it will be moved soon, so [big breath] here goes...
Fannylogan excellent point. Can I expand on that scenario and say perhaps that conversation had taken place in a shopping centre, within ear shot of many passer-by's. Someone goes to centre management and says "There are people discussing such and such down there. It is upsetting for some to hear, can you tell them to move on?" Management agrees and does so (fair enough), taking the people who were discussing the issue to the place you were talking about, where the are people supporting each other during a horrible time in their lives (not fair enough). "Here you go, discuss it here, you may upset people here too, but don't worry they are the minority, and besides they've terminated their own babies, they'll cope" Ok, so maybe that's not actual how it is, but that is how it feels.
Dueling I was thinking the same regarding 'Would this thread be put in the SN board?' And of course the answer would be no, would be incredibly insensitive to do so. As it is here. But it seems, to some, sensitivity on this board isn't a priority.
Expat would people on the SN board really not be offended though if the thread was on their board containing post after post saying having a baby with DS is wrong? They would, of course, have every right to be. People on the SN boards are living it ('it' as in issues referred to in this thread) every day, and people on the AT/C board are living it in the now too, so of course, threads of this kind don't belong in either board (I know you didn't move it)
Livefortoday I didn't read all of your post as too long but get the gist. That may mean I missed out on pertinent information, but WTH, I'll respond anyway. No actually, on second thoughts, to respond to your post without reading it in it's entirety, given the sensitivity of the subject would be wrong. I, for one, do not for one moment think all people with DS are the same. I'll admit, there was a time in my life when I may have thought this - a time before I was faced with the knowledge that the baby I was carrying did have DS. That is when I did my research into the facts regarding the, potential I'll admit, problems relating to DS. I based my decision on that actually, not preconceived ideas of them all being the same (which, for me, only extended to the stereotype: they're all so happy and loving, and who wouldn't want that?) I'm sorry if I sound harsh, it's just that this oversimplified view of why people might terminate for DS really bugs me. It's like the extent of our thinking is "Ooo, a baby with DS? Dont want one of those " Just not true.
To the people who don't want this thread moved from here, I just don't see how it is beneficial to anyone where it is. No one is asking for it to be deleted, just moved. For a start, I think AT/C is mainly frequented by people facing tests/choices, not people debating the ethical issues involved. For those that have been diagnosed with a DS pregnancy, a thread like this isn't helpful in coming to an informed decision, being full of speculation and personal opinions from both sides of the 'debate'. There's also the issue of hurting those that have recently gone through/are going through this, though it's evident this isn't important to a few. The comments are water off a ducks back to me, as I have moved on with my life (interpret that however you wish), though I feel very protective of those who are going through/have recently gone through this and whose emotions are still very raw. Those with differing viewpoints who do consider the feelings of others, may be reluctant to post their true feelings here for the very reason of not upsetting someone, so you don't get an honest and open discussion anyway. Finally, people that have terminated come here for support and to support others going through tests etc, whatever choice they come to in the end. They are not interested in influencing another's choice either way, that is why you will rarely see reasons given why people went on to terminate (besides medical diagnosis and perhaps personal situations). So a thread inviting people to speculate about/give reasons for terminating should not be here IMO
Where should the thread be? I know someone who was hurt because her child was recently dx'd with something like ds and she happewned upon it in chat
Here it has potential also for sure.
Surely then that means there is somewhere lacking in MN for sensitive threads to be moved to?
I know how hard it is to have the tests becuase I have been there; I know how hard a dx is (got 2 ASD, facing a potential 3rd), even if ours were long after the birth. I don't know how hard it is to be faced with a termination thank God (my Mum did so know how she felt but am so glad no personal experience).
Chat wasn't the place, perhaps here is not, so where? MN has always had a huge Sn membership and many of those mums will be just as vulnerable as anyone here- and I can tell you for sure that when you have a recent dx these threads are like an itch to scratch, a sort of virtual self harm, yet hiding chat seems rather random- half the purpose of AN Testing is you can hide it no? Like the vaccinations section: in many ways that is as useful when faced with trauma as it's protected status, given how people face these issues differently.
Yet such topics need to be debated; it is crucial. This thread given the title could as easily have manded in the SN topic and would have been as bad as landing in here or chat. I'd shout loudly for a sensitive subjects topic only I suspect some halfwits woudl use it as aan excuse to spout hate and say 'well it's this area, hard luck'.
I've long wanted an area where there is a protected status much like SN- the opposite of AIBU. not unchallengeable area, but where you know if someone is unsupportive their post can be removed. maybe there should be a difficult subjects area within that? Exvept we 're not moderated so.....
Except again that otherwise what we are facing the choice of whether it's better to ask those facing sometimes potentially terminal DX's for Sn to have to self moderate and be picky about where they post (after all in many ways with my family's ASD dx's we are lucky, far better outlook that than Rett's for example, or Duchenne's). Or do we ask the same difficult task of those stuck in the whole antenatal testing / result nigtmare? can we in fairness ask it of either? I don't think so. there's no hierarchy of vulnerability and no group deserving of more support: both groups need that cushioning, and both groups are likely to be drawn to MN by it's very nature.
Ultimately that's up to MN although I would happily beg them to spend real time considering how something better might function. Uncharacteristically I am going to use my so-called MN Royalty Status (aka had nothing better to do for years now...) and gently remind everyone posting here that all sides of this debate are somewhere they'd never have chosen and equally deserving of support and consideration. Every side of this debate has a fair amount of shite ahnded to it, and the mental wellbeing (and it really is that) of both sides deserves protection.
I think that a question based on a hypothetical situation asked out of ignorance and (sick) curiosity has no place in the very real antenatal tests/choices thread. This area is for people who are sadly faced with real-life choices. We don't judge. We support each other. Les Animaux, please just accept that no one takes these decisions lightly, every situation is different, and the complexities of chromosomal abnormalities are vast. Having originally posted your question in the chat area is slightly less offensive. But you have drawn the vultures into our place of solace. You have no idea how much heartbreak and crying goes on here. What I wish for you is that you remain ignorant (because I wouldn't wish the alternative on anyone). Why can't you be happy that you've never had a earth-shattering diagnosis and remain blissfully ignorant? However, if (God forbid) you ever find yourself faced with the reality of having to terminate or given the choice to, then please post a valid question and you will find all the support and love you need right here.
FanjOeu, you shouldn't ever be made to feel that your beautiful daughter is inferior and anyone who makes you feel like that is in my opinion wholly ignorant and needs some serious education. God forbid your daughter might experience such attitudes, I hope she never does. I was 37 when I had my amazing daughter and when we told the midwife that we didn't want any prenatal testing she couldn't believe that we had thought it through properly. She wrote 'undecided' on our notes even through our protestations that we were very much decided. I found this attitude very offensive. She wouldn't accept our decision to not have any testing-it would have made no difference to us and we both knew very well what range of experience we would possibly have ahead of us. It seemed ours wasn't a valid point of view and was openly discounted. Each step of the way, until it was 'too late', health professionals tried to get me to agree to the testings. I too despise the 'normal' and 'healthy' type of language. Happy Easter to you and your family