Part time holiday allowance??

(66 Posts)
Laralooz Thu 07-Mar-13 21:12:30

I am starting a new job doing 20 hours a week over 4 days. They said I get 12.5 days a year, but that doesn't seem right to me? Can anyone confirm if this is correct please??

Many thanks in advance

Follyfoot Thu 07-Mar-13 21:15:41

If a full timer works 40 hours/week and gets 25 days leave a year, then 12.5 could be right (plus BHs pro rata'd). I do all our leave in hours, its much easier for part timers that way.

TheFallenNinja Thu 07-Mar-13 21:16:42

What does it say in the contract?

BackforGood Thu 07-Mar-13 21:18:08

Depends on what proportion of a full timer's hours you work, and what holiday allowance they get. You just pro-rata it, as FollyFoot says.

Picturesinthefirelight Thu 07-Mar-13 21:21:13

If you work a 5 day week the statutory minimum is 28 days. For a 4 day week it is 22.4 days or 112 hours. That includes bank holidays.

Picturesinthefirelight Thu 07-Mar-13 21:22:14

That's from the governments holiday entitlement calculator. I use it to work put holiday entitlement for someone who works irregular hours.

Laralooz Thu 07-Mar-13 21:23:22

Well it's says 12.5 in the offer letter, so that would mean I technically only get just over 2 weeks off??

loho Thu 07-Mar-13 21:26:45

Wouldn't your 12.5 days be just over 3 weeks? 4 days per week?

Picturesinthefirelight Thu 07-Mar-13 21:27:26

What is your start date. I wonder whether that is pro rata for part if a holiday year. Some companies holiday years run jan-Dec but some start in April.

Picturesinthefirelight Thu 07-Mar-13 21:28:10

And dies it say whether that includes bank holidays or not.

Follyfoot Thu 07-Mar-13 21:28:12

The hours of annual leave depend on the proportion of the 'full time' work a part time worker works. Its not possible to work it out without more info.

Follyfoot Thu 07-Mar-13 21:29:57

1 day of leave = one day off work, so you only take 4 days of leave to have a week off, not 5. I'd assume that BHs arent included so you would get those on top

Laralooz Thu 07-Mar-13 21:31:10

No that's for the year it doesn't include bank holidays I think. yes sorry it would be 3 weeks. I guess I need to find out what full time hours are xx

Picturesinthefirelight Thu 07-Mar-13 21:34:36

The government entitlement calculator says that it bases full time holiday entitlement of 28 days (5.6 weeks) on working 5 days per week. That dies include bank holidays.

hermioneweasley Thu 07-Mar-13 21:35:00

I think this is one where you're going to have to look at hours not days to get the correct entitlement. If the full time hours are 40/week and they've just halved the full time allowance of 25 days because you work 20, then it won't be correct.

CloudsAndTrees Thu 07-Mar-13 21:37:19

It sounds about right to me. When you work less hours, you need less time off.

Picturesinthefirelight Thu 07-Mar-13 21:37:41

As there are 8 bank holidays per year that makes 20.5 days altogether. Still 2 days short of the legal minimum.

ginmakesitallok Thu 07-Mar-13 21:37:57

It would make more sense to calculate your leave entitlement in hours rather than in days off

Laralooz Thu 07-Mar-13 21:38:07

I think that's exactly what they have done!!! What should it be?? How do I get them to correct this? Xx

Picturesinthefirelight Thu 07-Mar-13 21:39:29

Full time allowance is 28 days though.

bruffin Thu 07-Mar-13 21:39:44

You sound like you had the same He depts i had they were bloody useless and did the same to me, everytime new he person had to go through it all again.

They insisted on working out pro rata ie 20/35 but seem to think that when i took a week off i should take 5 days. Full time was 25 plus 12 days bank holiday. They said i was entitled to 12.5 days which wouldnt even cover bank holidays let alone other holidays.
I worked everything out in hours. Ie how many hours ft person was allowed holidays then took 20/35 to work out how many hours i was entitled. In your case if you take a day off you deduct 5 hours from your entitlement. A week is 20 hours.

ruddynorah Thu 07-Mar-13 21:40:41

You should get the same number of weeks off as a full timer, 5.6 weeks is your statuatory entitlement. Obviously your week is fewer hours than a full timer but it should still be the same number of weeks. So they book 5.6 weeks of their hours, you book 5.6 weeks of your hours. Your company may of course use some of your weeks for bank holidays.

Picturesinthefirelight Thu 07-Mar-13 21:41:03

Do you work the same hours each day?

Picturesinthefirelight Thu 07-Mar-13 21:42:28

Picturesinthefirelight Thu 07-Mar-13 21:42:50

Laralooz Thu 07-Mar-13 21:44:49

Yes 5 hours a day. God I'm confused lol am I right in thinking it should be 14.5 then??? Xx

Picturesinthefirelight Thu 07-Mar-13 21:46:22

Yes. They have made an error in calculation somewhere.

Laralooz Thu 07-Mar-13 21:47:42

I did the calculator and it did it in hours which when I divide it by days gives me 14.5?? X

Picturesinthefirelight Thu 07-Mar-13 21:50:29

Yes that's what I get for you. If course it's much easier if b/h are included. Watch they are not trying to pro rata them down too.

Laralooz Thu 07-Mar-13 21:53:21

What do u mean pro rata them down?

The bank holiday thing is quite confusing too as it depends on whether the bank holidays hit your days off or not. It is probably easiest to work out your holiday entitlement including bank holidays and then keep the right number of holiday days or hours back to cover those bank holidays when you would normally be in work.

Do you know how many days a full time member of staff would get? The calculations above are based on a statutory minimum, but if your employer is more generous that the statutory minimum then you should benefit from that too.

Do you work the same number of hours on each of your 4 days?

bruffin Thu 07-Mar-13 21:56:10

You are entitled to 112 hours divided by 5 because you are only paid for 5 hours a day. That is 22.5 days.
However that is government minimum and you need to find out what is standard for your employers.

bubbles1231 Thu 07-Mar-13 21:56:16

20hrs isn't 4 full days work. Assuming an 8hr day it's only 2.5 days so they've possibly pro rata'd it that way.

A full time worker would be entitled to 20 days (minimum) plus 8 bank holidays. Therefore a 4 day a week worker is entitled to 20/5*4 = 16 days plus 8/5*4 = 6.4 bank holidays. So you should have 22.4 (or 22.5 to round to nearest half day). Look through the calendar for the year and see which bank holidays fall on your normal working days and take these off your allowance. this is useful. This means that if you normally have Mondays off and most bank holidays fall on a Monday you will be able to take your bank holiday allowance for some other days, on the other hand if you normally work on the days that all of the bank holidays are on you may end up taking some of your normal leave to cover the difference between the 8 bank holidays and your prorated bank holiday amount.

Picturesinthefirelight Thu 07-Mar-13 22:01:38

Years ago the statutory minimum was 4 weeks or 20 days but many employers offered bank holidays on top in their contracts. Often part timers got the 8 bank holidays pro rated down

Then regulations changed to 5.6 weeks (phased in) most employers did not offer bank holidays on top if that but contracts still read the old way.

Bubbles - that method would be wrong as when the OP is on holiday, she is gaining 5 hours of "not working" rather than 8 hours as she wouldn't be working 8 hours if she was not on holiday and is not being paid for 8 hours for that day.

ginmakesitallok Thu 07-Mar-13 22:04:50

Breathe, but that calculation assumes that full and part timers work the same hours each day. This is how mine works. Full-time works 37.5 hours and gets 28 days. I work 22.5 hours so get (28/37.5) x 22.5

Picturesinthefirelight Thu 07-Mar-13 22:05:15

Assuming your employer has an hr sept they should be getting this right

Heck I manage it as a sole trader with a young girl who works term time only very irregular hours.

ginmakesitallok Thu 07-Mar-13 22:07:06

Ffs! I've done that in days.

28 days holds for full timer is 28*7.5hours.

I get((28*7.5)/37.5)*22.5 hours

Picturesinthefirelight Thu 07-Mar-13 22:09:09

Your answer should be 126 hours gin

Laralooz Thu 07-Mar-13 22:11:01

Everyone is telling me different things :-/ I will work; Monday, Tuesday, weds, thurs 5 hours a day. What will
I get excluding bank holiday?? Xx

Picturesinthefirelight Thu 07-Mar-13 22:11:44

There is no statutory entitlment to paid bank holidays unless your employer specifically says so in your contract.

Picturesinthefirelight Thu 07-Mar-13 22:13:40

14.5 days plus 8 paid bank holidays whether or not they fall on your usual working day

However it would beach easier to say 22.5 days including bank holidays.

Laralooz Thu 07-Mar-13 22:16:45

Ok thanks I will speak to them tomorrow then. This is all so confusing, didn't think it would be xxx

I don't agree that PT workers get all 8 bank holidays, in my experience it is pro rated based either on the hours or days worked.

As the OP works the same number of hours each day calculating in hours or days will get to the same result.

Using hours, if the FT week is 40 hours then FT holiday is 5.6*40 hours = 224 hours. The OP works 20 hours so is entitled to half as much holiday as a FT worker, 224/2= 112 hours. Since the OP works 5 hours in each of her working days 112/5 = 22.4. This includes bank holidays, so any bank holidays falling on work days must be taken out of that allowance.

If we calculate using days, a 5 day a week worker (assuming the same number of hours each day) gets 5.6*5 days = 28 days. The OP works 4 days so is entitled to 28/5*4 = 22.4 days.

Assuming you were there at the start of the year and your leave year runs jan to Dec then there are the following bank holidays:

1 Jan Tues
29 March Fri
1 April Mon
6 May Mon
27 May Mon
26 Aug Mon
25 Dec Wed
26 Dec Thurs

7 of the 8 bank holidays fall on your working days so you need to take 7 days off your 22.4 days, leaving 15.4 days if holiday excluding bank holidays. This will vary each year depending on how the bank holidays fall in relation to your day off. I am not certain whether this is a new job and whether you started it after the beginning of your employer's leave year.

Metalgoddess Fri 08-Mar-13 10:55:58

You should still get the same number of weeks off as full timers, it'd just that you don't need as many days to get a full week off. I work 3 days a week and get 22 days off which equals just over 7 weeks.

Wallison Fri 08-Mar-13 11:38:32

Bruffin has the right way of doing it, but check first how many hours a 'full time' week involves - at some places it's 37.5, at others it's 35. I don't think it's 40 in many places, so doing a straight half doesn't work out - if you're working 20 hours a week, then you're doing more than half-time. Include any bank holidays that full-timers get in your calculation and pro rata them as well - not all firms have bank holidays in addition to the statutory entitlement but if they offer them to full-timers they should offer them to part-timers too because to do otherwise is discriminatory.

ThingummyBob Fri 08-Mar-13 11:50:14

If you work 5 hours per day x 4 days per week you are entitled to 112 hours paid holiday for one year, irrespective of when bank holidays fall.

For each bank holiday you have as leave you will deduct 5 hours from the 112 hours total.

Bank holidays are included in your total holiday entitlement for the year.Your employers must pay you the correct amount of holiday per year but (unless contractually given) you have no rights to choose when this holiday is taken, therefore bank holidays will be deducted from your total annual allowance.

For anyone working irregular hours the figure for paid holiday entitlement is 12.08% of hours actually worked.

ThingummyBob Fri 08-Mar-13 11:53:39

breatheslowly - bank holidays are totally irrelevent for calculating holiday entitlement.

Wallison Fri 08-Mar-13 12:02:33

Not exactly. If full-timers get bank holidays then part-timers get them too. If nobody in the company gets paid bank holidays on top of their entitlement, then part-timers don't either, but employers are not allowed to discriminate against part-time workers.

ThingummyBob Fri 08-Mar-13 12:02:59

Also, what full time empoyees are doing is also irrelevent. They will each be entitled to 5.6 weeks of their own hours. No pro rata-ing (?!) from f/t to p/t is necessary at all.

Someone on full time hours of 40 per week due to (9-6 with 30 mins lunch) at the same company as someone who works full time on 37.5 hours per week (9-6 with 1hr lunch break) will both receive their own entitlement of 5.6 weeks per year; so 224 hours for the 40 hrs worker and 210 for the 37.5 hrs - both equate to 28 days away from their desks.

ThingummyBob Fri 08-Mar-13 12:06:41

Bank holidays do not even come in to holiday entitlement wallison.

Linky here

Are you thinking about contractual holiday pay over and above what is legally required?

Wallison Fri 08-Mar-13 12:18:13

Yes. Because what full-time employees are getting is what part-time employees should be getting pro-rata if they are both employed at the same company. So if the OP is working at a place where full-time employees get bank holidays in addition to statutory holiday pay, then she will also be entitled to it.

flowery Fri 08-Mar-13 12:31:26

You need to know what holiday f/t get.

Whoever said p/t employees get 8 bank holidays whether they fall on normal working days or not is wrong.

All holiday should be pro rata, whether it's bank holiday or normal annual leave.

If f/t employees get 25 days plus 8 bank holidays, total of 33, you should get 4/5 of that as you are working 4 days a week.

33/5x4= 26.4 (round up to 26.5) including your bank holiday allowance, so all bank holidays that fall on your normal working days would be taken out of that.

If f/t employees get 20 days plus 8 bank holidays, total of 28, you should get 28/5x4= 22.4 (again probably round up to 22.5), including bank holiday pro rata allowance.

Obviously one day's holiday for you would be 5 hours rather than 7.5 or whatever f/timers get.

ThingummyBob Fri 08-Mar-13 12:52:35

If they are both employed at the same company under comparable terms and conditions of course.

Wallison Fri 08-Mar-13 12:56:12

Well, let's just assume that the OP isn't going to go comparing her/himself to the Company Secretary or whatever.

ThingummyBob Fri 08-Mar-13 13:06:16

Exactly wallison.

Discrimination against part time workers is a separate issue from what the OP is entitled to by law.

She is entitled to 112 hours per year minimum, or 22.4 working days (rounded up to nearest half day if required - rounding down is not allowed.)

If she is unable to work on a bank holiday as the business is closed or whatnot, she will need to deduct 5 hours from her entitlement.

Simples grin

Wallison Fri 08-Mar-13 13:08:43

Yes but what her total entitlement is depends on what bank holidays employees at her company get. So it's not 'Simples' or accurate to state otherwise.

My previous job used breatheslowly's method. I worked Mondays and Fridays and ended up with either 4 or 5 days (2 weeks) annual leave plus BHs.
The logic behind this is that between me and my job-share we equalled a full timer. All BHs fell on my work days but I was only entitled to 2/5 of them, so they came off my annual leave entitlement.
On the other hand, my jobshare partner had 15 or 16 days annual leave (5 weeks) and didn't work BHs.
What annoyed me most was that I did overtime most weeks but did not accrue extra annual leave for extra days worked.

ThingummyBob Fri 08-Mar-13 13:14:14

But then you are getting into comparing terms and conditions...

Wallison Fri 08-Mar-13 13:17:59

Which you have to do. By law. Employers are not allowed to discriminate against part-time workers. So actually the bank holidays are a legal entitlement, if other full-time workers in the company have them.

ThingummyBob Fri 08-Mar-13 13:23:54

InMySpareTime, your employers gave the full entitlement due to both of you but then insisted that they effectively chose when you took the majority of it.
Not the best way to treat someone in a M/F job share like yours, but perfectly allowable.
Is that why its your ex job? Its their loss, console yourself that they'll probably have a high staff turnover if they are alyways like that...wink

Wallison I thought anything over and above legally required minimum does not have to be treated the same as the 5.6 weeks. Knowing what 'full timers' get is not a good indicator of much really.

flowery Fri 08-Mar-13 15:00:54

"Wallison I thought anything over and above legally required minimum does not have to be treated the same as the 5.6 weeks. "

Part timers must get at least pro rata what full timers get, otherwise they are being treated less favourably which is illegal. Whether the employer offers the stat min 5.6 weeks or more makes no difference to that.

Thingummy, it was one of the reasons I left, there were larger issues with lack of respect or recognition, it was made clear on a number of occasions that I was never going to get anywhere as a part-timersad. I had a far better system in the job before that with a 50/50 job share. We both got 4 weeks, and when there was a week with a bank holiday we each worked 2 days instead of 2.5.
That felt much fairer, and was a better fit with family life.

I agree that you don't need to know what full timers do or prorate that as you can just use 12.08%, but people seemed to be getting bogged down in either calculating in hours or days or weeks, but my point was that you get back to 112 hours or 22.4 days or 5.6 weeks whichever way you calculate it (assuming the statutory minimum).

fossil971 Fri 08-Mar-13 23:23:15

Our place adds the bank holidays so in our case a full time person gets 25+8 = 33 or 6.6 weeks. Then they pro-rata that down by the number of days on which you work. So if like me you work on 4 days (regardless of hours) you get 80% or 26.4 days. (I work 3 full days and one half). The reasoning being that to take a week off, you take 4 of your "days" off even if they are short days. Previously when I worked 5 short days, I had the full amount of days holiday even though my hours were virtually the same.

I still have to take bank holidays off, but since those are mostly in weeks I'd take as holiday anyway, I still book 4 days to holiday and get a week off. Technically I can maximise my holiday a bit by not taking my short days when i take an odd day.

This is exactly what flowery described I think.

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