Help with stress at work bullying grievance appeal- prob. Flowerybeanbag!

[chitchatter]

I've been off work for almost six months with stress at work due to bullying, intimidation, lack of duty of care (they failed to act when I alerted them) . I put in a grievance but my health worsened (became depression) when after 5 months they still had not given a decision. After pressure from the OH Dr they finally produced a report and upheld ONE incident of bullying but none of the others and found all other grievances unjustified. This include not upholding my complaint against the bully's manager whom i asked to do something about the bully before and after the event they now have upheld! I need to appeal but am really not sure how to do this - there are no guidelines and I asked HR but not forthcoming. It just says I should lodge an appeal within 10 days. I asked for copies of documenation but all I got was a summary report which basically says they believe the managers words over me (more compelling, that i didn't inform my managers I was stressed so they didn't know and couldn't act (tho it was pretty obvious I was under stress and I did tell them too but they deny!) There are also comments saying things like I am unusually sensitive and my personality is xxxx, amongst other inapproprite remarks . And of course denial from the 3 managers involved! They have also said that although its clear I am stressed they believe that other factors outside contributed to this. So any help greatly appreciated on

1. What needs to go in an appeal - new things or reiteration of old points?

2.Can I complain in the appeal about the protracted time that the grievance investigation took (they have 10 day windows in their guidance ie. should have been complete max 40days but took 5.5 months)and about how the investigator handled it?

1. I am desperate to back to work to get my life back and into some routine(I've been on no pay for 6 weeks now too)They are a huge company and I have said I cannot work in same dept (relationships broken down - 3 bullies there as far as I'm concerned) and have asked about redeployment. They seem, to think I can just slot back into my old job but even the thought makes me more anxious etc.I have to speak to OH today - should I ask for them to support me with a phased return to another dept (at least temporarly?)Any advice on how to handle this?

Very, very grateful for any ideas/help.
Sorry - its long!

[HOLLY23]

Saw this unanswered thread so just wanted to reply. I do not work in HR and therefore cannot advise you on employment law, however I would suggest that if you pulled together a document that indicated the timeline of events, this would act as evidence in support of your claim, however do you want to pursue this if you intend going back to the same Company albeit another department? The ACAS website provides some information on this type of thing so suggest you look there, also have you contacted your local citizens advice bureau for their advice?
Unfortunately it would appear your 3 managers are working together and HR probably just want to brush the matter under the carpet to avoid the paperwork! Where you go with this depends on what you hope you will achieve if that makes any sense? Hope this advice helps you a little at least.

[NorthernLurker]

I think flowery is taking a break at the moment. I know she always says to think about what you want to achieve though - and I think that's good advice.

I know you feel you've been unfairly treated - but is there actually anything to be gained for you by appealing? It all sounds very difficult and complicated and I think you could spend a lot of energy on this and not actually benefit yourself at all.

You want to go back to work and you want to be away from those people - I think you should focus on that and yes ask occ health to support you in that.

[notsoclever]

In my (limited) experience of this then a phased return to work in another department sounds like a good way forward. It gets you back into working, gives you some important income and confidence, demonstrates your willingness to return to work, and ultimately will prove your ability to be an effective employee (in the right supportive environment). Is there anyone who can help to advocate on your behalf to broker such an arrangement?

It is also important to be clear about the facts of the situation: so if stress was caused by x situation at work, be clear about that and how it made you feel. However if there were also other things going on in your life that were causing stress, it could weaken your case if you attribute everything to work. Is there some way in which you can separate the elements and their consequences? e.g. "my mother was ill, so I could not attend x meeting" and "my manager said [blah] and it made me feel y".

On your appeal, I am reluctant to answer because I am not an HR professional, but I would have thought that you should reiterate the facts. e.g You should assert that you did tell you manager about the stress, and that you asked for something to be done, before and after the event. I would avoid bringing in anything new at this point.

I would think that if you want to complain about the time to investigate the grievance process then this would be a new and separate grievance. Avoid confusing the 2 issues. You need have the facts placed on record, but what would you achieve from instigating a grievance at this point?

As the other post says - are you clear about what you really want? Are you appealing to strengthen your case for redeployment? Or are you making an appeal to record your position in the event that things do not improve? Are you seeking a change in policy or procedure that would prevent a similar issue arising? There are many possible reasons.

You probably feel very wronged and hurt by this whole episode, and there are things that can happen to make you feel better (e.g. positive experiences in a redeployed post), but in my experience little of your recovery and renewal will be related to having your grievance upheld, or even to "punishment" of the bullies.

HTH

[chitchatter]

Thanks for advice.
Yes, I have loads of documentation and a document outlining all events. This was submitted and I am adding to it as days go passed and letters, e mails etc arrive.
At one point I nearly left and thought of taking them to tribunal. Then I thought I'll wait the outcome. I think if ever I do want to take it to tribunal I need to show I exhausted the process- hence the appeal. I know it will be a paper exercise! Now they have cut my pay I have my sensible head on and am thinking I'm going to suffer here so I just want to get back into a work sit asap. They would be happy if I walked I'm sure but if I do I see very little prospect of me finding work at present. They'll just have to find me something else : at least that pays my mortgage and gives me some time to think.
Yes, I will focus on getting OH support - though so far they have been wishy washy: after all they are paid by same lot.

[chitchatter]

hi Notsoclever
Just picked up your post after I replied to last. Thank you- very helpful.Its given me some words to use when I speak to OH on phone - ooh in 20 mins!

Yes, I would like to try and broker and agreement which not only gets me in another dept but also can help recover some losses ie. training, loss of pay and contributions etc. I have transferable skills and they have vacancies so maybe..I know they won't jump at the idea however!

What I want? - Yes to all three! But I'm getting there with putting myself first now!

Tell me more about your second para?- I get what you are saying but can you give me a further bit to help do as you suggest... Thanks

[flowerybeanbag]

YOu should state that you are appealing and what the basis is for your appeal. One of the most important things to get on the record in your appeal is the completely inappropriate way the grievance was handled and the length of time it took. Not following the process properly is frequently just as bad if not worse than the decisions made, and complaints about the process used to deal with a dispute are easier to make at a tribunal if you need to, and much easier to prove than subjective complaints about whether an outcome was reasonable or not.

So I would have sections. Section one, any and every complaint you can make about the handling of the grievance. Go through their grievance policy with a fine toothcomb and pick out anything that they didn't do or did inappropriately. Section two, anything they have said in their report that you disagree with, both in terms of facts and in terms of unreasonable conclusions they have come to. You don't need to rehash everything you've already said, that's already on the record.

You must think about outcomes. You have asked them for redeployment, what's their response to that? Have they given you an answer? You need to press for actual action. Having a complaint upheld or not is all very well, but you need to be clear about what you want from them in terms of actual action.

You are right to say that should you want to go to a tribunal you will have needed to exhaust the internal process. However, from what you've said, the only thing you could consider bringing is a claim of constructive dismissal. Constructive dismissal is when there is a major breach of contract and/or a fundamental breach of trust and a breakdown in the employment relationship. It is notoriously stressful, long drawn-out and difficult to prove. You would need to exhaust the internal process then resign with immediate effect and bring the claim. From what you've said, I don't think that's likely to be something you will want to do.

If what you want is to get back to work quickly and in another department, focus on that. Get the OH to recommend it, and focus on getting that agreed and decided upon.

[chitchatter]

Thanks Flowerybeanbag! Really helpful. I will continue to work on it as you suggest.

I did speak to OH nurse today. She said she could not recommend redeployment but would say that I have said that to OH. I've come across this before - they steer away from making recommendations - only saying what the person 'says'. I was told that a meeting had been booked for middle of March with my Line M, HR and OH at Head Office. I said I felt that too traumatic (my Line M is one of bullies and 2 other bullies at same Head office) and also why not earlier ie. next week. App thats the earliest they can get their diaries to match! Said I want to go back to work and can't I go back to another base/job for the moment. OH said 'I'll pass that to them'. In meantime I am on no pay (exhausted my sick pay) but I feel quite able to go back to work on a phased basis as recommended by OH Dr and GP. I feel I'm being forced to stay off work, off sick with no pay! I've been offered 2 hrs paid work next week by another org and would really like to do it. The OH nurse said great idea - do it. But I don't think I can if I have a Dr cert can I ...? I'd love to do a bit of work and get back into routine and confidence back etc. Any thoughts on this?
Thanks

[flowerybeanbag]

Sounds like a good idea on the face of it but you need to check your contract about other work. Obviously if you were receiving sick pay it would be a no-no, but as you are not, and are trying to negotiate a sensible arrangement to allow you to get back to work, allowing you to do a couple of hours elsewhere while they sort themselves out sounds reasonable.

Check your contract and check with HR or whoever as well I would say.

[chitchatter]

An update! Well I have no declared myself fit for work (with backing from GP) and informed my employers of this giving 7 days notice before my last sick cert expired. They ignored it! Have just contacted them again asking for response and again saying i am presenting myself fit for work but on advice from OH, GP I cannot go back to same dept so requesting a temp redeployment. Still no answer! So now I have informed them that as I am now fit for work I expect my pay to be returned to full pay as from 2 days time. They have cut my pay and I'm now on a small amount of SSP so my situation is critical as I'm breadwinner.
Anyone any idea where I stand here? Any legal cases I can quote re my entitlement to be paid if available for work?

Thnx.

[chitchatter]

Oh yes! And I received a letter today inviting me to a grievance appeal meeting tomorrow!! I have politely pointed out too short notice! Surely they have to give me a min number of days notice?

[MadMazza]

I just wanted to say that I went through a formal grievance process at a previous employer some years ago although found another job and didn't take it to a tribunal in the end. However it may be useful to you to know that some house insurance policies cover you for a certain amount of legal costs in relation to employment matters. You may want to pursue this in the future if it is appropriate. They would only cover me if in receipt of all evidence and they thought there was a good chance of being successful in the claim.

[chitchatter]

Hi.Well I think my aim is to move on in time but when I want and not be pushed out.Jobs aren't easy to come by at present especially with a 6 month sickness absence! I do have a Union who some days are good and other days non existent. I need to stick with them and their on/off attitudes for timebeing and hope that they will put my papers through to Union solictors and just do what I can to help myself.

[flowerybeanbag]

I think you need to be careful how you come across chitchatter. You have no automatic right to be redeployed regardless of there being a medical opinion that redeployment would be a good option for you. In most organisations redeploying staff who are off sick just wouldn't be an option, particularly at the moment where there are recruitment freezes everywhere.

If you are fortunate enough to work in an organisation where redeployment is a possibility, it would definitely be good practice for your employer to try to redeploy you if there is an appropriate alternative vacancy. As your employer is obviously very big, clearly it is more likely to be possible there than other places. But you have no right to it and should be very careful about saying that you 'expect' to be put on full pay when you are in fact not yet fit for work in your existing job.

Either you are fit for work or you are not. If a medical professional feels you are not fit for work but would be if an alternative position could be found, then they should continue to sign you off sick but provide that opinion to your employer to enable your employer to make an appropriate decision. But unless and until another post is found, you are not fit for work. They should not be signing you as 'fit for work' (and presumably also refusing to give you further medical certificates), if you are not in fact fit for the work that is currently available to you.

I agree that your employer are not treating you particularly well, they are not responding to you promptly or addressing your proactive attempts to return to work. But just be careful about demanding things you are certainly not entitled to, I wouldn't want you to get someone's back up. And if your GP or OH professional has signed you as 'fit for work' when you are in fact not fit for work, you should address that immediately with them otherwise you risk jeopardising your SSP.

In terms of the grievance appeal hearing, it's great that they want to hear your appeal promptly. There is no minimum number of days' notice they must give you. Notice must be 'reasonable'. One day's notice is not a lot I agree, and assuming there is a reason you can't attend, it's fine to say so. But you obviously want them to hear your appeal, it's positive that they are prepared to do so quickly, and you should clearly attend if at all possible. Don't be tempted to refuse to attend out of principle just because you think they should have given you more notice, doing that won't help anyone. If you can go, go. Apologies if that's not the case, it just comes across slightly from your post as though you might be refusing to attend to make a bit of a point.

[chitchatter]

Thanks Flowerybeanbag. Certainly food for thought! Yes, my post does seem like I'm making demands but actually I've 'requested' these things and am just not getting responses. Last thing first- my union rep couldn't make tomorrow so thats what i explained.
I'm trying to get my head round the 'fit for work or not' bit. If the managers in my dept are the ones who have caused my ill health through their bullying/intimidating behaviour then for me to go back there is surely putting my health at risk? Its a temp redeployment I'm requesting whilst my grievance is unresolved
and a risk assessment highlights risks at my current job.. I'm in a catch 22- if I stay off sick I ;lose more confidence and less chance of getting a job. I also cannot afford to live on just sick pay- am already in terrible debt from 6 weeks of no pay. Now I'm wondering if I should go back to my GP and say I need to be staying off sick but I just think that will be a backward step and I'll sink back into depression.
To be honest the whole thing is a nightmare- I'm not sure if they are just plain disorganised or its a deliberate ploy to get me to leave.

[flowerybeanbag]

Absolutely, it certainly is a catch-22 I agree, and I also think that if redeployment (temporary or not) is a possibility they should be actively considering it, definitely.

I agree that at present going back to your old department doesn't sound like an option that will help you. But as that is the only option on the table at the moment, then you are not fit for work, and I am concerned at a GP signing you as fit for work when you are not fit for the work available to you currently. I think actually you being signed as 'fit for work' by a doctor won't help you, as it implies that you are fit to return to your job and any refusal to do so by you might be viewed negatively.

All of this is really good stuff for your grievance appeal. You should make it clear (I know you have, but do it again in the appeal hearing), and get a letter from your GP as well, that you are not fit for work in your current job, but want to return to work and have medical advice that you would be fit to return if an alternative could be found for you, which ought to be possible at least on a temporary basis in an organisation of this size.

[chitchatter]

OK. My GP is very supportive and I know she would do another medical cert for me but I've just geared myself up and feel so much better now that I'm not 'off sick'. I am desperate to work even if its just a couple of hours here and there- I feel so useless not working.I've been offered a coupe of hours by someone else and told the OH this who said its a great idea, but I know I'll have to pull out of it if I stay off sick. I'm just trying to help myself out of this pit. My GP has written a letter already advising a return to work but in an alternative dept given the outstanding issues. OH did the same and on receiving hers they booked a meeting was for 3 weeks later to discuss. I guess I felt OMG thats another 3 weeks I have to get a certificate for and because the various people couldn't get their diaries together sooner.
As for my grievance appeal - I am in the dark as to how this works and am feeling very nervous about it: I can't get any info about what to expect/what to do.