Does dh need to grow a pair or is he right to fear for his job?

[theSuburbanDryad]

Ok - very brief outline:

DH works in PR, for a small(ish) company which mainly employs family and friends. He was headhunted for the job, which has since turned out to be somewhat different from the original offer.

He has to work 9-6 every day, often working much later at home, and at weekends as well, to complete things for deadlines. He says that this is the norm for his office, that it's just expected of him. He has a tiny, cramped desk (which is against H&S) and he doesn't usually get a break throughout his working day at all - not even for lunch.

The latest thing, is that he had a hernia operation last Thursday (which he had to book off as annual leave) and throughout the week - while he was supposedly on "holiday" - he was receiving emails with assignments for him to complete by absurd deadlines, a few hours to do a day's work, that sort of thing. I asked hm what the hell he was doing checking his work email while he was booked off on holiday and, again, he told me it was just expected, that if he doesn't do things like this then he can expect to lose his job.

I've been looking at the ACAS website and have just told him to put his grievances in writing and give them to his line manager, this was his response: "i know, but if i do that i'll have to leave anyway." So I said that it doesn't matter that the company feels they're beyond the law, you have to make them play by the rules, and he said that even if he took them to a tribunal they wouldn't pay, and until then he's a problem to be got rid of.

What should he do if he genuinely feels he can't go down the "correct" grievance procedure, and is he being paranoid in thinking that the company could just effectively ignore a tribunal?

[MadBadandDangerousToKnow]

Does he have a contract? Are all these things - working hours (or working all hours), no lunch break or time off for medical treatment, unpaid overtime at home - specified in his contract?

He needs legal advice - do you have a CAB nearby?

[flowerybeanbag]

How long has he worked there?

If he's been there more than a year it would not be as simple as losing his job because of refusing to do those sorts of things. His employer couldn't just sack him for that, he could claim unfair dismissal.

If he's not been there a year they can more or less do what they like, however they still couldn't sack him for raising a health and safety concern.

In terms of a grievance, why would he have to leave if he did that? Because it would be such a difficult situation to work through?

If he did take them to a tribunal for something and received an award of compensation, his company might refuse to pay, but then he would ask the county court to enforce the judgment. I would doubt that would happen tbh. If they receive a tribunal claim I would expect they will take legal advice, and will be told to settle it sharpish or risk a lengthy and expensive procedure which they will lose, assuming there is a good case.

What does he want to achieve out of the situation? DOes he want to try and make his working situation better? Is that realistic? Does he want to make them see they are not above the law, scare them a bit? Does he want to just muddle along while looking for something better?

[WideWebWitch]

Small companies are not above the law. He should document everything.

Sympathy, sounds horrible.

[theSuburbanDryad]

Yes, he has a contract, and he is contracted to work 9-6 "plus any extra time that is needed" which is pretty sly IMO. Also, i don't think he saw the contract until he had already started working there, by which time obviously he'd quit his previous job and moved us all to a new town so he could pursue his career!

The no time off for medical stuff is his choice, really, as he wouldn't get sick pay (except SSP) if he had taken it as sick leave and we couldn't live on the SSP. I know they're not legally obligated to pay sick pay, but surely when he's on holiday he shouldn't be expected to work from home?!!

[flowerybeanbag]

How long has he been there?

[theSuburbanDryad]

Flowery - he has been there less than a year. Bugger.

No idea what he wants to achieve tbh. Will forward him the thread and see if i can get him to tell you himself.

[flowerybeanbag]

Do. I could talk about various options including his protection when it comes to H&S issues, but if he/both of you can work out what he wants to achieve that's easier, then you can focus on exactly what to do to achieve that aim. Makes it easier to go forward and decide on options if you have an end result in mind.

[MisterUrbanDryad]

Right.

The main problem is that the working conditions I've got are utterly appalling. The job itself is okay, but the working conditions are terrible. I'm hugely uncomfortable sitting at my desk, without enough leg or arm room, and there's an industrial fan behind the wall in front of me, which makes my teeth rattle all day.

Also - it's a sales led environment. Most people are either working for commissions or have a stake in the company. If they put in extra hours, they get extra money. I don't, but that's not their problem. I'm there to get things done as soon as possible. I can try to plan my time, but that all goes to shit the moment I get a single poorly worded email, that I can barely understand, which lands another whole days worth of work on me. And I get this at the weekends too. And now, also when I'm taking holiday, to have and get over an operation.

There's absolutely no point trying to 'go through proper channels' to raise grievances or argue the toss over the situation. There aren't any proper channels.

Now, you might be horrified by this and say 'well, they have to, it's the law', but by the time I'd have taken it to a tribunal, I'd be out of a job, and not getting any income in the time leading up to this anyway.

We're also in the middle of buying a house. Probably not the best time to be doing so, but the sums just about add up to make it a better proposition than renting, so it's not a terrible idea.

However - it also means that there's no way I can quit my job whilst the mortgage is being sorted out, and there's also no way, once we've moved, that I can take on a job that pays any less than I'm earning at the moment.

It's really doing my head in, as every day at work is long and miserable, and I'm still having to work, even whilst recovering from an operation, whilst 'on holiday'.

MrsUD says she's 'had enough of my whinging', but I feel I'm not whinging, I'm after a way of dealing with things.

My current plan is to stick it out until we're moved, then do absolutely everything I can to get a new job closer to home, but I just don't know if I can hang on until then.

Any advice gratefully received, but please - don't say anything about 'grievance procedures' or trying to talk to anyone at work, as that's just a joke, really. Part of the problem is that I can't get this through to MrsUD, who is all up in arms about it and saying 'THEY CAN'T DO THAT!' - no, technically they can't. But they can and do. Which is where I'm stuck.

[flowerybeanbag]

Welcome MrDryad

There are proper channels, even if they are not made clear to you.

However, you are clearly not prepared to exercise your rights to use those channels, and I have some sympathy with that. I do find a bit it difficult to believe they would literally just ignore a tribunal claim and all that comes with it. But bringing a claim does have implications for you other than them ignoring it anyway, I agree.

Trouble is, if you're not prepared to take any kind of official action, or even to talk to anyone at work, it's very difficult to know what advice to give you tbh. I don't know another way of dealing with things if you're not prepared to either go formal, or have an informal discussion with the people at work, or to alternatively to leave employment and move on, none of which you say you are prepared to consider.

I have no options left to suggest to you, other than refusing to do the things you feel are unacceptable, and refusing to work in unacceptable conditions and seeing what they do about it, putting the ball in their court.

I'm sorry, I honestly can't advise you how to 'deal with things' without initiating some kind of dialogue. I don't know what else I could say to you.

[flowerybeanbag]

Do you think they'd sack you if you got signed off sick?

[BouncingTurtleSkulls]

MUD - I totally feel for you, and know exactly where you are coming from.
Last year when I was expecting my ds, I was running a waste management site along with another manager. The Site Manager has retired a year previously, but hadn't been replaced, placing a heavy burden on myself and the other manager. To make things worse, the other manager had a heart attack in January last year, and went on the sick. Which mean I was effectively trying to keep the site running doing the job of three managers while pregnant. It was incredibly difficult I didn't get any support from the management team on our company's adjacent site until I nearly had a nervous breakdown.
It was bloody hard, but eventually they realised something had to be done, and got more management in but I still ended up commencing my ML 2 weeks early because I couldn't take any more stress.
What made it worse was that my DH was giving me a hard time for letting myself get into that situation, and was telling me to get me to sign myself of sick, but if I had I would have created a burden on my already overstretched staff and causing other problems to (they had a manager lined up to replace my sick colleague but he wasn't starting until about the time I was finishing).
Yes it is very easy to say "your situation is shit, do something about it" but not so easy once you are in it.
I guess you are probably casting around for another job? But that must be tough to.
Just try and rest while you can, can you try and move you desk to give yourself more space?
I would document everything that your company is doing wrong, even if you decided now that goign down grevience procedures isn't worth is at the moment, it might be worth gathering evidence anyway, in case they decide to give you the boot - that will then give you evidence to sue for constructive dismissal.
UD - please be supportive, but don't tell MrUD what to do - I'm sure he knows what he ought to do. I know he is a big strong man, and I was a hormonally challenged pg women so therefore less able to handle the stress, but everyone has their breaking point. Especially considering he is also recovering from an op!

Hope you heal soon and figure out what to do MrUD!

[MadBadandDangerousToKnow]

OK. If you don't want to go down the grievance path, is there any chance that you could make a winning argument for employing an assistant to take some of the load off you? Can you plausibly argue that the money spent on an assistant's salary would be more than repaid in extra sales? I appreciate that the current economic climate might work against this.

How good are your time management skills? Are you ruthless about prioritising? Why is additional work dropped on you with no notice? Are your managers poor at managing their own time and priorities or does the environment really change that rapidly? How comfortable are you with saying 'that's unreasonable'?

Sorry to ask so many questions. I wonder whether it might be worth having a couple of sessions with a career coach who could help you work through all these questions (and many others)?

[lulumama]

if you feel that they would sack you for complaining/airing a legit grievance or for being signed off sick, is this the sort of company you want to work for long term?

you have choices:

pursue things via the correct channels

leave

or wait until you have moved and then look for another job

if you intend to stay, then you either have to accept the conditions or fight to change them

are other staff happy/unhappy/indifferent?

[edam]

OK, there's lots of stuff making you unhappy here. What's the ONE thing that, if changed, would make your life better - desk size/location, workload, being dumped on?

Could you talk to your line manager in an assertive, reasonable way and give them a solution? Such as 'My desk is very cramped, there's not enough arm or leg room, I'd like to move it to wherever'?

[MisterUrbanDryad]

Well, exactly. There's nothing I can do.

As for being signed off sick - I get five days a year sick pay.

Technically, I've got a sicknote at the moment, but I'm still taking it as holiday to keep getting paid, and in case I really do need those sick days, when I don't have holiday.

Also - the previous receptionist was essentially sacked for taking too many sick days. I don't know the precise details of that, but I know it was the reason she went.

I had some time off sick back in February, which counted as being in the last company year, but I also had a day off a few months ago, and got an unofficial warning for it. I was pretty much told 'we don't take sick days here'.

So, yeah FBB, you're quite right. There's nothing I can do, because of the implications involved with taking any of those steps.

Yes - I completely understand that there are official steps I can and should take, but the problem is the income gap between doing this and getting an outcome which is not absolutely guaranteed anyway.

What I want really is to get some support and to have family recognise the position I'm in, and not to give me grief for being so exhausted and unhappy all of the time, and for a bit more understanding there.

Things like my mother saying 'well, you could go and be a teacher' or 'you should be an election agent for the Tory party' (of which she is a member, urgg, urgh, spit spit) and then getting shitty with me when I point out becoming a teacher woudl take a year's training, with a vastly reduced income, and that I've never voted Tory in my life, don't help.

I really just want people to realise that there's not a lot I can do and to shut up with the 'THEY CAN'T DO THAT' stuff and to give me some decent practical advice about how to cope in the meantime.

[Bramshott]

Can you break it down into bits, and then work out which are things you could change, and which are bits you might have to live with until you can find something better?

For example, if they could move your desk (after all, you have just had an operation) would that make the day more bearable?

And if you try to do everything you can during the week in terms of putting in extra hours and working in the evenings etc, could you then be really strict about not ever checking your emails on the weekends and when you have holiday booked? If you don't want to make it a huge issue, you could tell them you're away, even if you're not - could you fabricate some family issue which is going to take you away for every weekend between now and Christmas say?

[Bramshott]

Ooh, cross-posted with Edam there!

[MisterUrbanDryad]

@ MBT



Not a chance, I'm afraid.



My time management is good. But I've found it to be impossible, when I've got a whole week's work planned out, and then I get more dropped onto me, which needs doing yesterday. I've argued for a scheduling system, but have been told that 'we need to stay ahead of the game'.

[edam]

Can you not put out of office assistant on your email and just ignore everyone until you go back?

[stleger]

Can you spend at least part of the time working from home? I have a dreadful employer too, but flexible time which helps.

[MisterUrbanDryad]

Absolutely not. I'm outta there as soon as I get a different offer I can live with.

[edam]

You need someone who is training to be a lifecoach who will give you some free sessions. Will see if I can find some details (but must do some work first).

[flowerybeanbag]

Aha.

Well getting people to understand and be more supportive is a bit different.

Bramshott's advice is excellent, see if there are any small things that you could change or get changed without horrendous implications just to make things a bit more bearable.

I'm sorry but I am a bit ROFL at 'be an election agent for the Tory party'

It's always easier to deal with a situation if you are working towards addressing it. So focus on the things you can do, on moving house and getting that sorted, on at least preparing for looking for a new job, even if you can't do so actively right now. SOmething positive to focus on will help you through the days/weeks and hopefully give you back a bit more of a sense of control which is hugely missing at the moment.

Tart up your cv, start putting feelers out a bit, look at your skills and experience and start at least thinking about what your next move could be. Go and see a recruitment consultant specialising in your area, they are often happy to talk through your options even if you are not looking for interviews immediately.

I do sympathise, honestly I do. Find something to focus on that will help you take little steps towards where you want to be. It's clear you're not prepared to risk trying to fight the situation at work. Fair enough. But if there's anything, even small, that you could do there to make it a weeny bit better, do that, and you can certainly do things outside work to help you move to where you want to be.

[MisterUrbanDryad]

I'm doing this with external stuff, but can't when it's internal.