Am royally hacked off - floweybeanbag I should have listened to you [sad]

[LittleMyDancingForJoy]

So (for those of you that didn't see my other thread) - I'm 14 wks pg, looking for a job, and last week got offered a good job with a gov't agency. Thinking that I was doing the decent thing (and going against advice on here, shall never do that again) I told them I was pregnant when they offered me the job, thinking that they couldn't withdraw the offer without being discriminatory.

Anyway, I asked them about the possibility of flexible working (4 days a week, possibly compressed hours) and they asked me in for a meeting today, which I've just had.

Now they didn't do anything technically wrong or illegal in the meeting, but I was left with the overall impression, reading between the lines, that they would much rather I turned this job down.

They talked a lot about how things are changing very fast in the team, and it's a very challenging time for the organisation. They went through the job description and emphasised how much work it is, and also emphasised that this person would have to travel to the regions on a regular basis.

They asked me if the travel to the office would be a problem (it's out of town and parking is limited) and whether I could do the regional travel.

They offered me right at the bottom of the salary bracket for the role, but said that everyone starts at what they called the 'interim' point, and then at the next pay review their performance is assessed and most people get a big jump in salary at that point.

They gave me a copy of their flexible working policy but said that it was at the manager's discretion, and they would not expect people to apply for it until they'd been in post at least a year or 18 months.

They said that compressed hours was not feasible on H&S grounds, especially as I'm pregnant.

At no point did they say anything encouraging like 'we are really keen for you to join us' or 'your experience really fits the role' or anything positive at all. In fact they avoided using any terms that implied that I would be taking the job at all.

So I was left basically feeling like they really hoped I would find it too difficult to take on and turn it down. There was lots of 'If you think you can do the role' and 'If you think you can deliver on those objectives' etc etc.

Not really sure if there's any advice people can give me, but I really expected better of a government organisation. I am hacked off, disappointed, and a little worried about the future.

[LittleMyDancingForJoy]

I'm so hacked off I spelled your name wrong in the thread title, flowerybeanbag. Sorry!

[RhinestoneCowgirl]

Have seen your other posts about the new job but not posted before - that sounds pretty poor

[WideWebWitch]

It is discriminatory if they withdraw the offer but it sounds as if they'd just like you not to take it. Tossers. Do you really want to work for them?

[LittleMyDancingForJoy]

Not after that meeting, to be honest, no, but I really need a job. We are not in a good position financially, I'm currently working for DP which I'm not keen on both for emotional reasons (difficult not to talk about work all the time etc) and for career reasons (it's not what my actual career is in, iyswim).

Also he runs his own business and we're concerned about the credit crunch hitting him, and both our incomes being at risk.

And with DC2 coming in April, I'll only have MA to live on, which won't cover much.

[OneLieIn]

Sorry to hear that. Why don't you join and see how it goes? Or at least say you still want the job? They would then either withdraw the offer (leading to discrimination) or accept you.

I would take it and see how it goes.

[dilbertina]

I don't mean this horribly, but I do think you're being a bit naive to expect them to be delighted with your pregnancy. Of course it causes them some problems, regardless of the fact they are obliged not to discriminate against you - not least the fact they have to sort out maternity cover.

I'm not sure what the problem is with them explaining more about what job entails - unless you feel they are altering the job to put you off?

Again, it's perhaps unrealistic to expect them to make the role more flexible at this point in time, TBH why should they? though I appreciate it would be nice for you if they were to be flexible....

The problem is I guess you'll never know whether they are behaving differently because of your pregnancy....

Good luck with whatever you decide!

[lalaa]

FYI, I think starting at the bottom of the pay scale happens a lot in public sector.

The key issue is, do you think you can do the job?

Also, it's all very well them saying they wouldn't expect you to apply for flexible working until 18 months into the job, but there's nothing legal (that's I'm aware of) that stops you doing so before then. Is it 6 months? Flowery will know better than me.

It will probably be quite a difficult atmosphere to work in, and you'll have to perform. That's quite a lot of pressure during pregnancy and with a baby. It depends how well you handle work pressure.

[NorthernLurker]

LittleMY - grrrrrrh at them!! I think they are trying to put you off because they know damn well they can't ditch you. I've had a quick look online and from what I can see you have to have worked there 6 months before you have a right to flexible working so I don't know where they got 12 or 18 months from - and the managers discretion is bollocks as well - if you were to make a request they have to have a business case for refusing it.
You need to think about what you want to achieve - it may be that you can still get personal satisfaction from this job plus your pay till you're on ML and the details for your CV. It's not ideal and I know it's disappointing for you but maybe you can still make this work?

[LittleMyDancingForJoy]

I do agree dilbertina, in that I don't think they did anything technically wrong.

I wasn't expecting them to say 'how wonderful that you're pregnant' but it was more about the overall emphasis of the meeting, in that it was very much 'do you really think you can do this job?' with the expected answer being 'no, actually, how foolish of me to try and have a career and a family'

There wasn't a glimmer of them being keen for me to join them, you know the sort of niceties that people say when they're recruiting.

I basically just got the impression of 'this is the job, if you don't like it then fark off, we're not interested in accommodating any of your requests, not even a bit, and we're not in the slightest bit upset if you do fark off'.

[wannaBe]

tbh I think it's because you're pregnant that they haven't withdrawn the offer.

If you'd gone in and simply asked for flexible working they could have just said no, and that the job is on these terms for these hours and if you can't work for them on that basis then unfortunately they will not be able to accommodate you. But because you're pregnant they don't feel they can withdraw the offer because then you could accuse them of discrimination on the basis that you're pregnant.

Tbh I can see their point.

You go for an interview, you are offered the job and you then drop the bombshell that, not only are you pregnant, but you want flexible hours as well. If I was an employer I wouldn't be jumping for joy at that news either. Sorry.

[LittleMyDancingForJoy]

lalaa you're right, that's what I'm worried about is that it will be a very difficult atmosphere to work in, as well as being a full time role, which will be very hard work. And I know I knew it was full time before I applied, but if they're keen on making it difficult for me, then it's going to be doubly hard, isn't it?

NorthernLurker (hello again!) I know I could be good at this job, but realistically, I don't know how much I can achieve in five months before I go on ML, I don't know if it would be enough to change their minds about me from thinking of me as a problem to thinking about me as an asset that they don't want to lose.

But then again, it would be money in the bank, plus they said that their HR team had advised that they would have to pay me their maternity pay which is far better than MA (18 weeks on full pay and 21 weeks on SMP). But if I did the job just to get the SMP I would feel bad, plus I really don't want to go back f/t after dc2 arrives, so it might be really daft of me to even take it.

All of which is made much worse by me being hormonally all over the shop, I just came out of there and wanted to burst into tears in their car park, which is not exactly professional behaviour!

My overwhelming urge at the moment is to send them a narky email saying 'Well you clearly don't want me to do this job, so I'll take my amazing skills elsewhere, you have no idea what you're missing you bunch of idiots' but that wouldn't be very professional either, I'm guessing

[flowerybeanbag]

Oh LMD I'm sorry to hear that.

It sounds exactly as though they are hoping to put you off because they can't ditch you as NL says. Very disappointing, particularly from a public sector employer as you say.

You do have a right to ask for flexible working after 6 months, and manager's discretion is not a reason for turning it down.

I think you should go ahead with the job. You can do it full time can't you? Do that for the time you still have left. Be brilliant. That way they will be happy to welcome you back on your proposed (or different) flexible hours after maternity leave.

At the very least, even if you find you don't enjoy working with them and this attitude is illustrative of a general approach, you will get the job under your belt and on your cv and will bump up your earnings over the next few months.

[dilbertina]

'this is the job, if you don't like it then fark off, we're not interested in accommodating any of your requests, not even a bit, and we're not in the slightest bit upset if you do fark off'.

Yes, maybe that is how they feel...! Now you just need to be utterly Fab so they can't help falling over backwards!

They don't know you yet, and aren't particularly interested in compromising to make role more suitable for you....but when they do know you, hopefully they'll like you and have more invested in wanting you to stay.

Plus realistically of course it will get increasingly difficult to get as far as ajob offer as you are more obviously pregnant...

I think you should take the job and see how it goes. If I remember rightly the chap to be your boss offered despite fact he already suspected you were pregnant. It's him you'll be dealing with most not HR. I reckon it'll be fine, and if not, well you're no worse off.

Hope it all works out for you.

[LittleMyDancingForJoy]

Well Wannabe I wasn't expecting them to jump for joy, or necessarily to accommodate my flexible working request, it's not that I'm upset about.

If I wasn't pregnant and had asked for flexible working, and they had said no, then they still couldn't withdraw the offer just for me asking, only if I said I wouldn't work full time. I will work full time if required, and I told them this.

It's more about the whole tone of the meeting being very negative, trying to make the job sound like very hard work, making sure I was aware that flexible working in the future was very unlikely, questioning my ability to travel to do the job and even to get to the flipping office.

It is all technically fine - it's the way it was presented that has made me feel like they're really hoping I don't take it.

[flowerybeanbag]

x-post, must respond to your 14:32:21 post.

They will not be keen on making it difficult for you once you were there. That's not in anyone's interest at all. They are keen on making it sound difficult now. Once you get there there is no point anyone making it more difficult than it needs to be and no need to assume your immediate boss won't be supportive and helpful.

Plus, 5 months is more than enough time to make an impact whatever the job is. Get yourself an action plan as early on as possible with things you want to achieve by the time you go. Tick as many 'quick wins' off as possible, it's surprising how much difference can be made quickly if you focus on the right things and the right people to get on side.

Do they really have to pay you enhanced maternity pay? Another huge plus!

[wannaBe]

and the reason they want to put you off is because they don't want to start the whole recruitment process again in a few weeks time to cover you while you're potentially off on ml for a year.

They don't know you're going to be there for another 5 months. For all they know you could be off at 26 weeks, and your recruitment will have essentially been for nothing.

Sorry but I can still see their point.

They can't withdraw the offer, so it's up to you to decide whether you still want the job, and they can hope that you say no.

If I was an employer, I would.

[LittleMyDancingForJoy]

Thanks flowery, sound advice as always! The six month thing, is that six months in post including maternity leave? By the time I go on ML I'll have been there five months, roughly, so including ML I'll have been there 11 months or more when I go back, so can I apply for flexible working for when I go back?

You're right, Dilbertina, the man who would be my boss is on holiday at the moment so I'm dealing with his head of department. To be frank, the man who would be my boss struck me as a very nice man, if not necessarily madly practical - he didn't ask me about salary at all in the interview, and was very vague about most practical things (!) He did mention at the interview that he had an informal flexible working arrangement with the last person who was in this job, which is encouraging, but I suspect that won't be allowed any more (New Head of Department).

I just don't know whether to take it at all - they've achieved their objective in making me doubt whether it's something I can manage while pregnant, and if they're feeling negative towards me it's just going to make it harder.

[LittleMyDancingForJoy]

Of course I can see their point, wannabe, but they're going to have to recruit again anyway, as my potential boss told me I was the only suitable candidate he saw for the role, so they don't have a reserve. So they haven't got people beating down their door to do this job, or at least not suitable people.

And you know, if this government really wants women to work as well as have a family, this isn't really a good advertisement for it, is it?

I guess it's the difference between the letter and the spirit of the law.

flowery - on the enhanced maternity pay, that's what they said, but I was a bit doubtful about it. I don't want to ask them to confirm it though as it makes me look like I'm just in it for the Maternity Pay!

I know I should just take it, I'm just feeling my confidence in whether I can do it has really been shaken by the meeting, and I'm wondering if the stress of it all is worth it.

[jelliebelly]

Are you convinced that you can do the job full on and full time while pregnant? - will you be able to manage the travelling that they have mentioned? If the answer to these is yes then take the job and worry about the flexible working thing later.

From the employers perspective I guess they will be annoyed at how much you are going to cost them - (that maternity pay package sounds great btw )in addition to paying somebody else to do the job while you are off.

FWIW I am currently 20wks pregnant with dc2 and doing a job in an organisation that I have been with for nearly 20 years and to be honest I am finding it bloody difficult, even with an understanding boss/team and no travel (apart from commuting)so you need to be really sure that you can do this job or you will only get more stressed over the whole situation.

[flowerybeanbag]

6 months means 6 months employed, so yes you will be able to apply when you go back from maternity leave.

The most important person for you is your direct boss, so if you feel you can work with him, that's the key. He clearly thinks you can manage, you're just having a moment of self-doubt because of a disappointing meeting.

Take the job. When you first arrive, have a meeting with your immediate manager to discuss your priorities for the 5 months you'll be there. Make it clear to him that you're keen to make a difference while you are there, and together you can identify how you can best do that. He will want that too so will support you.

[Zazette]

It's understandable that you feel disappointed and unloved after a meeting like that. But those feelings are not a good basis for a decision.

Could you set those emotions aside, and try and think about the decision more coolly? e.g. you could draw two columns on a piece of paper, and write in one column the advantanges of taking the job; in the other, the advantages of turning it down. That might clarify things for you.

[RhinestoneCowgirl]

I would say don't let your confidence be undermined as to whether you can do the job - I'm sure if you weren't pregnant the thought wouldn't cross your mind.

I think flowery is right - if you want the job, go for it - show them how great you are and you will be in a much stronger position to negotiate flexible working when you return from ML.

[thumbsucker]

Sorry to but in here but I am with Dilbertina. Having run a small company since having children (I know you said this is public sector, so somewhat different) and having been pregnant while employed I have experience on both sides and while there are rights and legal obligations in play here, there are also the feelings of those who work there already. They are probably a bit snowed under - hence they are recruiting. At the news that you're pregnant, despite their legal obligations, they are bound not to be overjoyed. Put yourself in their shoes (not suggesting you are, but when I was preggers I was just a tad self-absorbed ) and as someone else suggested, take it - you're going to find it harder to get a job the more pregnant you get, as the bump will be there - HR people can be wierd at the best of times and it sounds like your would-be boss is nice and you've already made a good impression on him, so focus on that. You probably won't have anything to do with the others ever again (until you prove yourself so utterly indispensible and great that you need to recruit your own assistant...)

[flowerybeanbag]

Yes we are indeed a weird bunch...

[flowerybeanbag]

Although the only comment LMD has made about HR at her new job is that they have advised the person/people holding the meeting that they will need to pay full maternity pay.

I am getting a teeny sense here that there might be an assumption from some quarters that this putting-off tactic was HR's idea? Unlikely. They are likely to have been put under pressure by the senior manager to provide details of how LMD could be put under pressure without putting the employer at risk legally. Chances are the manager wanted to go further but was advised not to by HR.

HR have no agenda in forcing perfectly good candidates to withdraw, and even if they did, few and far between are the senior managers who'd allow HR to make those kind of decisions for them!