Magic Circle Lawyer - Would 4 days be career suicide?

[RosieIrene]

I am a senior associate at a magic circle law firm. I have two DD (1 and 3). I returned to work full time after each one but am now finding it very difficult to balance. Tried working at home one day a week but always seem to have to go into office. I love what I do but want more time with DDs. Does 4 days a week work? Would it be career suicide or did decision to have kids as senior associate effectively already end career progression?

[Anchovy]

OK - my views (am partner, 2 small children, both born post partnership).

1. Depends a lot on your practice area. Mine is almost entirely transactional and 4 days a week just doesn't work, unfortunately.
   
   
2. Depends on what you really want. If you really want partnership, its possibly a bit of a "short term pain for long term gain" type thing. If you don't want partnership (or - and you may have to be very truthful with yourself here - you aren't going to get it) then the world is your oyster. Nothing scares me more than competent senior associates who cannot be lured by the carrot of partnership!
   
   
3. IMO, what people/colleagues like is people efficiently doing what they say they will. So sometimes it is better to do 4 days a week and over perform than 5 days a week and under perform - the former will create a better impression. If you are thinking of doing it, come up with a plan to trial it, say that it is going to be for a fixed period (say 2 years) and go for it.
   
   Despite what people say, the attraction and retention of talent is a huge issue for City law firms, so sentiment is on your side.
   
   Good luck.
   
   (My own view is that if you have a fighting chance it probaby is worth going for partnership, because conversely the more senior you become, the easier it all becomes.)

[RosieIrene]

Thanks Anchovy. Career/kids seems to work best post partnership. All senior associates that I know who have tried it have left. My problem is that I can't compete with single senior associates who can spend evenings entertaining clients and taking on extra files. I am very good at what I do but that isn't always enough. My main worry is whether going to 4 days a week gives the message that I am not serious about my career.

[Anchovy]

Hmm. There's not that much entertaining to be done - not really. Extra work can be done from home. I leave at a fairly civilised hour (most evenings) so that I can see my DCs before bed, but I work long into the night after they have gone to bed pretty much every night. Not great, but my choice and it means I get to see the children.

Technology is on your side. Its a lot easier now than it was 10 or even 5 years ago. I'm assuming that you have the whizzy remote access that we have. We have the technology to dictate at home, whizz it back to the office and get it typed up there. Work doesn't have to be done in the office. I think the culture of "presenteeism" is really loosening.

[kerala]

Could you not sell yourself on the angle that you would be a good role model as a female partner with children? In my old magic circle firm in my department there were 50 partners, 2 were women. Banking clients thought this odd and the partners were beginning to realise it wasnt acceptable just to make up fellow men whose faces fitted.

(ex magic circle senior associate now SAHM so prob not the best person to advise I guess). But good luck whatever you choose to do.

[Anchovy]

Trouble is Kerala, I don't think people get made up just because they are good role models.

It tends to be looked on as an "added extra".

Where I am - and most places I suspect - your billing history will figure quite prominently. No reason why pro-rated figures can't be used.

[RosieIrene]

I do as you do Anchovy and work late into the night, however, partner I work for is always making comments about "part-timers" who leave at 6pm i.e. me, despite good billables. No credit to me for working late, while, the "Mr Sociables" get accolades. Lip service to "flexible working".

[Anchovy]

Yes, it is hard. I don't tend to do much of the "socialising" thing, but I have a good reputation for doing so from my pre-children years which still carries me through, and I also spot the strategic times when it has to be done.

Strategy is all, in my book. If I know I am going to miss that small window of seeing the children, then I exploit it: I stay late, do my work in the office for a change, wander up and down the corridor, sometimes throw a drink in with my team for good measure. I think a bit of judicious/strategic lateness is not a bad idea - what you don't want is to give the impression that you always - you have to - knock off at 6pm

[RoundTheBend]

From personal experience, I would say unless it is dedicated full time, you may not progress as you would desire. I am an accountant. I have a DS with Aspergers. I have to work from home on days when he is really distressed. This has meant that I have been passed over for promotion. The company I work for have taken on a man "qualified by experience" to be the manager of the office. No formal qualifications, no previous practice experience but he is a man, no emotional ties, he has a wife at home dealing with all that. I am mean spirited about it. He asks questions, I don't know the answers - if they want to pay him more than me and make him senior to me, I say let him earn his money!

[flowerybeanbag]

Someone said something to me once which really made me think and made me feel better at a time when I was leaving work for a while for medical reasons relating to starting a family.

At any point in your life and your career, you have to decide what 'success' means for you.

When I heard that, it made me feel better about leaving my job and taking time off to have my DS, and it makes me happy with my current career decision as well. Just a thought you might want to bear in mind - others here obviously have very pertinent experience which I hope you find helpful, but I thought sharing that thought might be of interest.

FWIW my DH is a managing associate at a Magic Circle law firm, his immediate response when I read out your OP was 'it's career suicide'. He's never seen it work. But then he qualified it by saying 'it depends what she wants from her career'.

Anchovy is right, it would probably be easier if you were a partner, but until then, if partnership is indeed what you want, it may well not be realistic.

[NKF]

If you want to make partner, then it's probably the kiss of death to go four days a week. The little one is still very little so things might ease and the balance might become easier. Good luck anyway.

[Undercoverlawyer]

Right, I've name changed for this because I don't like to talk too much about stuff that might idenify me.

I work in a city law firm, not magic circle, but just below. I have seen senior associates who can make part time work. I have not (yet) see any of them progress to partnership. That said, I haven't seen any of the full timers with small children (well, the female ones!) make partnership recently either.

I think that it can work, but it needs the following:

• support from the partners managing you. If they aren't supportive, can you think about moving groups, or even firms?
  
  
• careful thought about the days you won't work. E.g. if you are a transactional or property lawyer, numerous completions occur on Fridays. Even if your firm agree to your not working Fridays, more people will have to cover for you and your absence will be noted more. Pick a quiet day. I have seen Wednesdays and Mondays work well. Mondays because they are quieter, Wednesday because they don't make a long 'three day run' where you aren't around (Tuesdays also work by this reckoning, but makes for a less appealing week split).
  
  
• quite frankly, an associate who is the dog's whatsits. I have seen an associate who the partners adore have the firm bend over backwards to make part time working work for her. I don't think that her partnership prospects have been harmed at all. Be honest with yourself, are you that person? If you're not a 'star' then you naturally have to put in more face time to progress (that goes for men too).
  
  
• take strategic opportunities (as suggested below) to be visible late into the evening. Do you have a supportive partner who would understand why, some days, you might be out late not solely because of workload, but to have a drink or something with your team. I think that this counts for a lot. If you've been stuck at work late enough that you won't make bedtime, it's actually a good chance to do this without losing out too much on time with your kids. Be strategic.
  
  
• Finally, get thee to a BlackBerry. I know it's sad and that a lot of people on these boards will say "that's a scandal. You shouldn't work on your day off". All that's true, but it's not life in the City. Two word/line emails at times you're not working lessen the perception that you're not there. Bit of a pain, but honestly I think it helps with the old school

[blueshoes]

FWIW, in my magic circle firm, there is an ex-senior associate turned PSL who works 4 days a week She was made partner recently.

[Anchovy]

LOLOL Undercoverlawyer - assuming you don't already, would you like to work for me?

You have highlighted 3 things which I mentioned and I think are key:

1. Make technology work for you. Its great - it does mean the boundaries between work and home dissolve a bit, but that has huge pluses as well as minuses.
   
   
2. Your DH/DP has to be entirely supportive of this. (Mine works in an investment bank, so we are a touch "cash rich time poor" but he is entirely hands on with the DCs and does exactly his fair share of nights up mopping up vomit/making the mince pies for the class party/time off if our nanny is sick etc).
   
   
3. Really good people can write their own agendas (although, I have to say, the 4 day a week PSL to partner thing is not a "likely" career track IMO). But if you are good enough you really do set the rules. And the fact that there aren't that many women out there doing this means you have the opportunity to say - oh, well I decide it can be done this way.
   
   The other thing I would say is that it really does get a lot better reasonably quickly on the home front. My DCs are now just 4 and 6 - life is a whole lot easier than it was 2/3/4 years ago.

[blueshoes]

'(although, I have to say, the 4 day a week PSL to partner thing is not a "likely" career track IMO)'

lol, Anchovy is right. That PSL was not only good, she was also in the right place at the right time and thedog's whatsits to boot (to borrow Undercover's terminology) and even then took many years to get there.

Rosie, it is hard enough to get partnership fulltime, and even harder parttime. Are you at the seniority where the senior partners in your team start telling you where you stand? Can you identify a credible champion amongst the partners in your department, who is prepared to push you through? What do you reckon your business and personal case is?

There is all the extra profile building (seminars), client development, etc on top of billings, that you have to do in the run up to partnership.

All it means is that if you must WANT partnership (hard in these times to just fall into it), and then actively pursue it. If you are prepared for that commitment, then you can plan when you are ready for the push.

Is your firm up or out or can you 'coast' (hate that word) on 4 days until you are ready to gear up for partnership when your children are slightly older.

Anchovy, do you think it is possible to do the push on 4 days, based on strategic socialising and profile building. In your case, you had children post-partnership, but Rosie has to run the race pre-partnership.

[susie100]

RosieIrene, I am not a lawyer but work in a similar professional services, partnership structure. I am currently on maternity leave for 6 months and will go back 4 days a week. My day off will be Friday as it is typically very quiet here. My firm is very supportive as they know that I work hard, am a high fee earner and have good client relationships. I know I will end up doing a bit of work on Friday anyway.

I am not yet a partner and I imagine my progress will stall slightly, I think it is inevitable. However, I do feel well supported and backed in my firm and so it is a sacrifice I am prepared to make to spend some more time with DD, at least until she is at school.

I remember your previous posts from a few months back when you sounded very close to breaking point and so I think 4 days a week might be the perfect option for you to get back some sense of balance and control.

On your boss' comments about being a part-timer etc. Personally I would challenge this and point out the work you are doing in the evenings and remind him it is about output, not input!! Facetime is so last decade and maybe you need to point this out to him! Is there a more sympathetic partner you can talk to about this? I had long chats with the managing partner here before making an official request to go 4 days a week as I wanted some ground rules established in terms of career progression, bonus etc.

[Bessie123]

Anchovy, I think I recognise you from another website

From my (v limited) experience, I wouldn't have thought it was easy to move to a 4-day week and keep your career prospects. But as other posters have said, you have to decide what is most important to you.

[CountessDracula]

My dh works for a City firm (not magic circle but trying to head that way from the way they are running the place...)


He took a decision that he didn't want partnership in a City law firm. He felt he couldn't tell them really so he has just withdrawn from the marketing stuff. As we both work we don't need the money that comes with it and we have a fantastic work/life balance now and he is so much less stressed than when he was on the hamster wheel...

He is thinking of going down to 4 days to pursue other things now. It's great.


Do you really want partnership?

[MrsWobble]

RosieIrene - you have made no mention of your dh's views. In my view this is absolutely crucial - if he's not completely supportive your career progression is going to be so much harder.

I'm an accountant not lawyer but in a Big 4 firm so not completely dissimilar. I had my children pre partnership but my strategies are similar to Anchovy in that if I'm going to miss their bedtime there's no need to get home before my own. It can be tough on your relationship with dh if he's not supportive (see point above).

I also second Anchovy's comments about it getting easier both as you become more senior and thus get more control of your work life and as your children get older, stay up later and become more self sufficient.

my final piece of advice is to make sure you are confident in your own worth - don't forget the advantages of getting stroppy occassionally. Provided you are delivering the results, how you do it is up to you and technology dramatically increases the options.

ultimately you need to decide what you want out of life - a "big" career and a family are not mutually exclusive but they're not necessarily an easy option either.

[kerala]

Also - dont let them work you too hard the hours can be so brutal esp with international transactional work as I was doing. It is tough even if you love it as you say you do.

I heard today of a dear man I worked with, partner at top magic circle firm, dropped dead early 40s. 3 young children. Make sure you factor in time for yourself. He worked so so hard.

[GrumpyWomenRuleOK]

Hi Roseirene - My dh is partner in a magic circle firm - have just picked up phone to him while scanning your thread. He was ringing to say that he will be back about 1.30 am (we are in Kent), and this has been every night for the last 3 weeks due to a transaction - we are deffo time poor and it's just as well I love him as much as I do . He has also worked each of the last 3 weekends, either here or in London. Agree with other posters - you have to be v.v.v. honest with yourself about where you would like to be in 5 - 10 years time. Otherwise you may engineer a compromise that actually just fails everyone in the long term. Only you know where you want to be.

[RosieIrene]

Thanks all for the supportive messages. I can't imagine anywhere else I could get such positive and helpful feedback from so many people with relevant experiences. Certainly impossible to discuss it with anyone I work with. I don't have anyone in the department who will really back me - mentor is leaving and replacement is single, childfree/less and hardcore. Unfortunately DH is a MC partner so no support on that front. If I ask him to come home early, he thinks 9pm. Nanny has been paid so much overtime..... Do I really want it, you all ask? Answer: yes, but not right now. I do like the idea of "coasting" while DDs are so small and then putting in the hours when they are a bit older, but I don't think they will want to keep me on indefinitely at my salary level even though I am meeting all targets. DH likes the "wanting your cake and eating it too" speech - I would just like some role models with crumbs on their suits!

[lisalisa]

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[1dilemma]

RosieIrene wasn't it you who posted a while back about things being a bit tough? We all wondered where you'd got to, how things were. Glad you're back. I'm in another field but have found myself increasingly wondering if children=career suicide.

[RosieIrene]

Hi 1dilemma

Yes it was me a few months ago. Decided to take all the good advice and stop expressing, take a holiday, see my family and look into the 4 days a week. Didn't get any positive feedback from friends on 4 days a week (all resentfully do 5 days of work in 4) so thought I would get MN views because found everyone so helpful last time!

[lisalisa]

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