Appealing dismissal help please

(19 Posts)
mam29 Fri 13-Sep-13 13:29:05

Husbands been dismssed from job today.

act of gross miss conduct-error .

someone talk me through appeals?
is it lengthy?

who should we ring for advce

acas?
cab
employment lawyer.

my heads all in spin wasent expecting dismissal today.
Hes been suspended for last 4weeks.

not sure what anyone can say make me feel better.

Rockchick1984 Fri 13-Sep-13 13:50:06

What are your grounds for appeal? How long has he been working there? Is he a member of a union, as they would be the first port of call for him if so.

mam29 Fri 13-Sep-13 13:56:06

just under 2years yes he has right appeal. just/

no hes not in a union and was too late to join.

its a mess and just gutted trying to be positive were so many errors and unprofessional conduct throughout investigation.

lougle Fri 13-Sep-13 14:10:30

So he started his employment before 6th April 2012? That means he could go to tribunal if his case was strong.

How was his error gross misconduct?

You can still join a union to ask for advice, they just won't pay for the tribunal.

You need to find an employment lawyer as soon as you can.

PractialJoke Fri 13-Sep-13 14:20:20

ACAS were superb when my DH was in the same situation.

We would also have got some help with legal fees through our house insurance, had it been necessary.

Union were worse than useless, so no loss there!

mam29 Fri 13-Sep-13 19:25:46

Thanks guys.

usdaw shop union wont touch us as happened before he would have joined.

He got suspended 4weeks ago full pay pending investigation.

2weeks later went to disiplnary more questions presented his defence long hours, error of judgement.

During that time they brought up separate thing they investigating him for.

Then he got resuspended pending further investigation.

had letter last week saying meeting of outcome today.
no eveidence they said in letter no investogation doen last 2weeks si guessed facts were same as 2weeks ago when they dident dismiss so half expected him to be let off this and go after him for something else.

he turned up today where they grilled him further 2hours same old questions its quite a clear cut case he did wrong he admitted it straght away was genuine error.

he had very little trainng and none of its signed off.
hes worked excessive hours.
has good clean employment record.

was doing well;

number of things thougout investigation

incorrect dates, incorrect list purchses.

hoping appeal within 2weeks but not hopeful.

he thankfully started week before change in lasw so think he has right to tribunual.

but looking legal/trubunual costs.
and baffled why the law was pssed on appeal

makes me realise how much the employees been shafted.

hes not denying the act.
but the way investigation been and the dismissal seems punative and vidictive.

Acas not been great so far.

lougle Fri 13-Sep-13 19:58:20

"Error in judgement"? That sounds like he made a conscious decision to break a rule, rather than making an inadvertent mistake?

mam29 Fri 13-Sep-13 22:03:43

lougle. have messaged you details

lougle Fri 13-Sep-13 22:53:17

Thank you.

It sounds like the company have other reasons for wanting your DH dismissed....it doesn't seem logical if they could choose to let him continue with his successful store management.

Do contact ACAS again. Don't focus on whether their treatment of your DH was harsh. Focus on policies, procedures and protocols - that's your focus. Emotions can come later.

PractialJoke Sat 14-Sep-13 07:40:47

Yes, ACAS aren't there to support your DH, they are there to find an outcome that suits all parties

mam29 Sat 14-Sep-13 11:41:32

Thanks lougle treatment seems harsh and doesnt make sense.

apart from this unfortunat incident hes been 2nd hightest turnover store in company, turned store round had good mystery shop, stockloss results.

None of this makes sense.

how an apparent mistake
owned up to immediatly.
low value

how its been hyped up as decption im baffled.

im even more baffled that none of the mitigating circumstances seemed to matter.

excessive hours
stress of job role.
no signed off training.
incorrect dates on letters.
incorrect purchase history,
personal banter about killing employees on evidence letter.

we honestly thourght if the had grounds they would hae dismissed 2weeks ago as they consulted their company lawyers.

we did think it odd at last dispilinary they brought ups omething else unrelated which then made us think they possibly had it in for him they were very vague and hes never had suspenion or disiplinary on that matter just told us hes being investigated..

we expected let off over this then resuspension on other issue.

yes will speak to acas monday.

on day of suspension his line manager asked him questions then gave him letter on day suspending him.

The disiplnary letter arrived 48hours notice required.

he atteneded with diffrent manager and hr.

They asked him more questions relating to 1st thing then queried 2nd unrelated thing.

they then said they decied to adjourn pending further nvestigation and resuspending but dident give letter on that day letter arrived couple days later .

then took another 2weeks where we get letter you are ivited to meeting to discuss outcome. there is no new evidence or new investigation.

yet when he got there another hour half questioninging.
adjourned then dismssed.

he has no wish to go back but would rather not have dismissal on his record.

hes told the there and then he wishes to appeal.
unsure how sucessful that be.
or if we should go trubunual.

is it possible company on shaky ground and think he wont take any further and risked it?

They know he has right of appeal.

mam29 Sat 14-Sep-13 12:45:49

Messaged you lougle.

I think things need to focus on for appeal

is mitigating circumstances

breaking of working time directive.
in accurate clumsy investgation.
lack of training.
stress of job.

im angry, upset but determined to fjnd way to get them on this.

could this go to acas arbitration before tribunual?

does he need to attend appeal as no longer an employee.

wll ring acas monday

see if everything the done so far ok.

what grounds to appeal on.

looked at now in no win no fees employment lawyers.
maybe speak to cab.
some local lawyers offering 30mins free.
I know its acas job to be impartial. so far they said everything normal.

but havent discussed dismissal wth them yet.

hermioneweasley Sun 15-Sep-13 20:55:47

I would focus on the following in the internal appeal:
- he admitted it. No attempt to lie and cover up (if that's the case)
- he has an other wise excellent record

Had he asked for training and been denied it? With regards to the excessive hours, how does that impact on the ncident? How would anyone have been aware he was working "excessive" hours and that it was a problem?

With regards to legal recourse, to defend an unfair dismissal claim of this nature, an employer has to show that there was a potentially fair reason (conduct), that they carried out a reasonable investigation, had a genuine belief in the misconduct following the investigation, and dismissed for that reason. If those are in place, the employee has to demonstrate that NO other reasonable employer would have dismissed n those circumstances. It's actually quite a high bar.

Blu Sun 15-Sep-13 21:01:18

If you have house contents insurance, check what is covered - many include legal costs for employment law.

Good luck OP.

nicksinger7 Mon 16-Sep-13 14:50:17

Hi mam29

Sorry you are having to go through this; it is no doubt very stressful.

If you think they have it in for him, then the appeal is unlikely to make a difference; the appeal manager will be trying to protect the dismissing officer.

However, it is still worth putting in a strong appeal. Failing to do so can make a Tribunal think that an employee doesn't believe in their case. It also raises and flags up issues for a future Tribunal. If you can get legal assistance and get their assistance in writing the letter, it can make an employer worry. It may not get your husband his job back, but the employer be prepared to consider paying him money to avoid a Tribunal claim.

Remember, time limits for putting in a Tribunal claim are very strict and short and the rules are complex; make sure you are fully informed.

Good luck

Nick

mam29 Tue 17-Sep-13 01:18:08

Thank you everyone you all been so kind and helpful

nick messaged you back its complex case .
going to check house insurance see if we covered.

just could be expensive process and looking at chances dont seem good.

read that tribunals don;t look at mitigating circumstances.

just process which need to check

could be ok.

Tribunals use is it reasonable as as the nature of the misconduct is alleged dishonesty then it is reasonable that they would dismiss and would pass the test of reasonableness as under employment law they just have to have their suspicions.

will throw everything we can at appeal.

The excessive hours he worked led to him being tired and part of reason he made the error.

we just waiting for letter of appeal as he told them there and then he wants to appeal.

He went cab today they were no help.

next step ring ACAS and try find some fault with the process

He has breeched company policy and admitted that.
Hes been very honest but been dismissed on grounds on deception.

Hes unknowing breeched a few of their processes and not realised he had done anything wrong. But that would be down to do with poor training.Hes not asked for retraing as up until recently was doing really well very commiteed to his job/career and wasent aware he was doing anything wrong

lougle Tue 17-Sep-13 07:34:07

The trouble is that if he was given a hand book with those policies in and signed to say he had read them, then he can't claim poor training. They have trained him through written materials.

I can't see the tiredness flying either, because he remembered twice or three times that he needed to sort out the issue and each time he didn't. If he had forgotten all together it would have been better, oddly, if you wanted to blame tiredness.

What errors do you think they have made with the process?

mam29 Tue 17-Sep-13 08:37:26

I know lougle but unsure the processes of dong staff discount was in handbook.

Hes had no signed off training documents

contract and handbook focuses more on policies rather than mechanics ie to check staff discount price must be done via computter no tille ect.

I know hes had 2chance within 24hours to remember but its tiredess/stress that would have led to him making this error thats cost him his career hes never been intentionally dishonest or deceptive.

in previous companies have know of similar things and they got final written.

its very diffrent case to say manager helping themselves to money in safe or till ect ot taking things over long period of time.

hes been totally honest and admitted his mistake so agree what you say if he has o recollection hes made the investigation very easy for them as the purchase history is innacuarate has a few pricey purchases hes never made so someones abused his staff discount code.

We have nothing to lose will throw all we have at it,
Its ddid feel at ponts on process that they had it in for him and were detereined to smear him but too late for greviance.

Im not sure how i can dispute the charge even though i cant see the decepton.

its the penalty im appealing an d them not taking any of the mitigating circumstances into consideration.

like incorrect dates
inacurate purchase history.
long hours of 60+that week locking up then opening up that same day.
lack of training meant he used til to check price due to lack of training and everyone else did it that way. checking price with intent to pay not grand art of deception.
passed crb check no bad records criminal or employment.

best i can hope for his timelines of letters were wrong and somehow invalidate the investigation.

Checked house contents sadly legal not covered.

I can think of many people who make silly mistakes.

I worked breifly as manger for a petrol station and some peopl,e forget drive off then come back apologising and we would apply common reason/sense not press charges as obvious mistake and they then paid.

Ironically he was keen to not breech wallet/personal money on shop floor rule so when he put out tills that morning ad checked price befire store opened intention was to pay later.

I know outside looking in hes been very silly but hes not dishonest and would not jeopardise his career over cheap item which was actually part of his uniform.

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