Undeserved bursary

(314 Posts)
Hamstersball Sat 16-Mar-13 23:13:20

I know a child that has been offered a very substantial bursary at my dd's independent school. She has passed the academic selection process and on the surface can be very charming, able to talk to grown ups at ease etc. However we have known her for several years as dd1 and her are in the same brownies pack and her behaviour has always been dreadful: picking fights with other dc, racist and foul language, lying when confronted, bullying other children. I can only conclude that her school lied between their teeth about her when they gave her a reference to support her bursary application as several mothers who know her at school say her behaviour is also dreadful there. I'm really tempted to inform dd's school about the true nature of this child and want to know if anyone has done something similar and what was the outcome.

Tortington Sat 16-Mar-13 23:15:04

why the fuck would you do that?

Bluestocking Sat 16-Mar-13 23:16:03

Do you really think this is any of your business? If the school do decide this child isn't an appropriate awardee for a bursary, they'll deal with it themselves.

ArtexMonkey Sat 16-Mar-13 23:16:59

Oooh these grapes are sour.

Beak out missis, nowt to do with you.

MerryMingeWhingesAgain Sat 16-Mar-13 23:17:14

You sound jealous. And bitter.

Floralnomad Sat 16-Mar-13 23:17:38

Seriously? Are you the Brownie leader ,if so you should have dealt with her behaviour ,if you're not where does your info come from ? children and other gossipy parents . Mind your own business.

difficultpickle Sat 16-Mar-13 23:29:09

If her behaviour is as you describe then surely the school will find out without you saying anything?

Hamstersball Sat 16-Mar-13 23:30:45

Although not a leader I regularly help out on pack nights and weekend camps and i went on a week long summer camp with them last year so have had lots of opportunities to observe this particular child's behaviour. As a parent helper I was told dealing with behavioral issues is not part of my responsibilities and this should be left to the leaders. I'm concerned that she will latch onto dd at the school as she will know no one else and maybe make life unpleasant for her. I'm also feeling angry as I don't think the primary school has been truthful in their reference ( probably to avoid any hassle) and she has got a bursary through it. I know several other academic and well behaved dc who applied for a bursary at the school and were turned down and really feel for them.

difficultpickle Sat 16-Mar-13 23:35:42

A bursary is based on income. It has nothing to do with the child but everything to do with parents' income. If others were turned down for a bursary maybe their income was more?

If you are concerned about this child latching on to your dd then you can say to the school that there is a history between them and you would prefer it if your dd was in a different class.

I assume that academically this child qualified for admission and financially her parents qualified for a bursary. If her behaviour is as you describe then the school will soon discover this for themselves. If you say something the only person who will look bad is you.

timidviper Sat 16-Mar-13 23:37:52

I thought bursaries were income based? and everybody knows at least half of them are totally undeserved anyway

Hamstersball Sat 16-Mar-13 23:44:07

Since our fees contribute to the bursary scheme I do feel we have some stake in who its awarded to. I'm concerned about the information schools get about bursary applicants it seems to rests totally on the previous schools HTs reference. Does anyone know if they get to see the applicants actual school record to date?

TheOriginalSteamingNit Sat 16-Mar-13 23:45:25

Maybe you need to find a school with better values?

prh47bridge Sat 16-Mar-13 23:45:43

Not all bursaries are income based. Some schools offer bursaries to the children who performed best in the entrance tests.

On the original question I would strongly advise doing nothing. If you tell the school the "true nature" of this child it is very unlikely they will take your word for it. I doubt they will even investigate. It will, however, reflect badly on you.

Kyrptonite Sat 16-Mar-13 23:47:30

Perhaps the school is what the child needs to sort herself out? Maybe the previous schools reference was based on issues you have no idea about and you should keep your beak out.

Floralnomad Sat 16-Mar-13 23:47:34

Just because your fees help others who are less able to pay I don't think that gives you any rights to vet the applicants . bisjo has given good advice .

MTSgroupie Sat 16-Mar-13 23:47:38

As others have said, a bursary is based on the parents' income and not based on the recipient being the nicest and sweetest little angel in the new Year 7.

ArtexMonkey Sat 16-Mar-13 23:50:30

Your fees pay for your child's education. That is the beginning and end of your contract with the school and your obligations to one another. Bursaries can be awarded by rich alumni or other fund raising means, but even if they do come out of other pupils' fee money, it is nothing to do with you. If you disapprove of how a private enterprise spends its profits you are always free to take your money elsewhere, of course. You seem like you have a really bad attitude and, if I've read your posts right, your dd hasn't even started there yet?

Labro Sun 17-Mar-13 00:00:52

bursaries are awarded on qualifying criteria, for example means tested, if the school feel they can meet a particular social need etc. I've known schools base bursaries on a proven social need, so you have no idea what the HT wrote in their reference! They may have been extremely honest and the new school feel that this child fulfils their criteria where others don't. If you do anything about this its just going to come across as sour grapes as you have no way of knowing the childs full situation. You can if you wish ask for your dd to be in different class if you have proof that the child is a problem to your dd, but this would have nothing to do with the application or bursary process.

Hamstersball Sun 17-Mar-13 00:11:35

On reading the schools bursary scheme literature it does state that it awards bursaries to candidates who have met the highest criteria for academics and have shown exemplary behaviour, the latter I can vouch this child does not qualify for. In fact if my dd ended up with the sort of behaviour I've witnessed from this girl I'll be wanting my money back.

difficultpickle Sun 17-Mar-13 00:14:49

Then you have nothing to be concerned about. If this child is as you describe then they won't be at the school for long. It does sound a bit as if your dd and you are better than this other child and their parents and don't want to be faced with your dd becoming friends with the child of people you consider are socially inferior. I hope that I've misunderstood your concern. Money doesn't make manners imvho.

Labro Sun 17-Mar-13 00:19:37

But its not up to you. The head teacher and governors make the decisions based on the paperwork presented to them, not on the gossip of school gate mums or activity groups. My ds goes to school with a child who is a complete nightmare at scouts but is fine in the school environment, your dd doesn't go to school currently with this child so we are suggesting that you don't have the facts fully available, there could be confidential information involved, an sen, all sorts of reasons as to why she has still been awarded the bursary, passing the academic criteria doesn't rule out high functioning sen for example.

Hamstersball Sun 17-Mar-13 00:26:31

It has nothing to do with feeling that this girl is socially inferior or her manners what I object to is her behaviour which can be appalling. On one camp she did a turn which included jokes poking fun at different races complete with facial gestures and accents. She is regularly in some sort of fight with other dc which the leaders have to break up. Bitching and stirring is second nature to her. She insults dc from other ethnicities on the sly and tries to get out doing anything she can't be bothered with, but because she can put on the charm our thick Brown Owl does never actually carries out the threatened punishments.

Kyrptonite Sun 17-Mar-13 00:30:11

Gosh you sound delightful. Maybe she is repeating things she hears at home? Maybe this school will educate her about other races and cultures. Maybe, just maybe, she is insecure and showing off at brownies and she may need help socially.

I'm failing to understand why this girl or her bursary is any of your concern.

Floralnomad Sun 17-Mar-13 00:30:15

And the adults present at this camp just let her carry on with 'her turn' ! I'm amazed , if you are that concerned why did you not say something at the time and why do you still allow your daughter to attend such a badly run Brownies .

DeepRedBetty Sun 17-Mar-13 00:36:47

Just step away.

If she's that bad new school will deal with it. If you don't trust them to deal with this stuff why are you sending your own dd there?

Ask them to put your own dd in a different tutor group (I did this, it worked, re a Bad Influence coming up from prep).

And Breathe....

ihearsounds Sun 17-Mar-13 00:37:51

You know nothing about the girls needs. You just know a small section of her life.

Fwiw. Years ago, my eldest was offered a bursary. He was offered it because of challenging behavior. But within the public info about bursaries it wasn't mentioned, because at the end of the day these can be discretionary. So no, you shouldn't say a thing because you have no proof that the new school aren't fully aware of various issues.

Labro Sun 17-Mar-13 00:38:27

So, now, according to you, the girl has managed to fool a brownie leader, 2 head teachers and a board of governors when you know all the facts? If she was so bad at camp then why didn't you/haven't you complained to your district commissioner about it and the Brown Owl you have decided is 'thick' and asked to see the behaviour policy girl guiding uses? As said above, you have no way of knowing what leads to this type of behaviour in an activity group and you don't have any access to this childs details. Perhaps you ought to offer to do the full leadership training for Brownies?

Hamstersball Sun 17-Mar-13 00:41:13

I was completely shocked by her " turn" and got up to speak to the leaders about how inaapropriate it was as soon as I realise what she was doing The leaders are old school and didn't even register how offensive it was until I explained it to them, then they bundled her off pretty quick. DD has said she doesn't want to attend the pack anymore as this girl's behaviuor is getting to her and the leaders are ineffectual at dealing with it. I do think my dd being constantly exposed on a daily basis to the behaviour of this girl at school is my concern especially when the school had a pick of candidates for the bursary. How hard is it to choose an academic and well behaved child? I have lost all faith that the bursary scheme helps the most deserving.

beginnings Sun 17-Mar-13 00:45:48

This is a CHILD you're talking about. Can you hear yourself??

Labro Sun 17-Mar-13 00:47:25

No, it is not your concern.
This child has not started the school, therefore there is no evidence that anyone else is any more or less deserving. We are not given the right to judge other peoples actions based on a small slice of their lives. The only valid concern you may have is that you would prefer your dd to be in a different tutor group. You do j

Labro Sun 17-Mar-13 00:50:52

should say, you do not have all the confidential paperwork of all the bursary candidates in front of you so how on earth do you know who is a deserving applicant and who isn't? It sounds like one of your friends children didn't get a bursary therefore you are looking for reasons to slate the whole system.

Hamstersball Sun 17-Mar-13 00:51:59

Yes it is a child and unfortunately I'm having to tell it as it is. I wonder how many of you would stand for this sort of behaviour and not express your concerns to the school. Unfortunately over the years I've come to see her behaviour as entrenched and not easy to change regardless of whatever school she goes to.

ihearsounds Sun 17-Mar-13 00:55:04

So that's it, just give up on the child? Send her to the most shittiest of schools around because there is no point in giving her anything.

You know nothing about this girl. You don't know about her home life. You don't know if she has experienced something traumatic. You don't know if she has sn and if it has been advised to ignore certain behaviors.

Hamstersball Sun 17-Mar-13 00:55:27

None of my friends dc applied for the bursary the dc that did apply that I know of were from the brownie pack, swimming class and a work colleague's child

KatieMiddleton Sun 17-Mar-13 00:58:05

Brownies? So she's 9 at most? She is still learning social skills.

I feel more sorry for her than you on this one.

SoggySummer Sun 17-Mar-13 00:58:16

Perhaps the school are well aware. Perhaps there is a back story to her behaviour and the school think they can offer her a positive chance in life. Perhaps the school think she is deserving because they know all about her and you dont.

You have assumed her existing school has lied. You have assumed she is the way she is because she is horrid.

You know very few facts.

I know my DDs independent school have a few children there that have had challenging backgrounds and started with challenging behaviour and although they cannot fix what goes on out of school they have given some of these children something postive in their life and some self belief which has resulted in improved behaviour. I know for a fact these children are not paying the full fees to attend either.

Private schools do not buy your child a place away from the undesirables - our children will grow up into a world full of people that can be unpleasant and the earlier they see and learn how to deal with this the better.

IMO - you need to back off but if concerned for your child approach the school saying there is history and you want them preferably in different forms (if possible) or not to be deliberatly paired together.

Hamstersball Sun 17-Mar-13 01:02:18

Our goes up to 10 -11 and shes startig secondary school in Sept. I'm going to have to sleep on this one thanks for all your comments/ advice.

Labro Sun 17-Mar-13 01:02:56

By all means express your concerns to the school, in relation to how your dd finds it difficult to be around this child. I'm very confused how on earth you know her behaviour to be entrenched in a school setting when you have never seen her in a school setting? Brownies is once a week, for an hour and a half, with all girls, in a completely different environment to school. For what its worth, last summer my ds nearly got sent home from scout camp because the leader decided he had 'behaviour issues' when he returned it was referred to the district commissioner and discovered that the leader had humiliated him when he wet himself and he was home sick and way out of his comfort zone. In hindsight I should never have sent him on that camp. That doesn't follow him in school, so in your example its time to see the bigger picture, step away and wait until you have FACTS.

akaemmafrost Sun 17-Mar-13 01:06:30

If I found out you had done this to my child I would seek legal advice.

Hamstersball Sun 17-Mar-13 01:13:21

I have a few friends whose dc goes to the same primary school as this child and they says her behaviour in school is appalling. One friend's dd told me this girl had been put in internal exclusion at school several times for bullying. An acquaintance who works in an afterschool club told me she hates the days when this girl turns up as shes bolcshy and forever winding up the other dc.

Hamstersball Sun 17-Mar-13 01:15:52

Akaemmafrost on what grounds?

Rhinosaurus Sun 17-Mar-13 01:17:24

Geeeeeezz. So jealous.

KatieMiddleton Sun 17-Mar-13 01:20:20

Urgh. This is so unpleasant. Gossiping and the breach of confidentiality from the after school club just makes me think worse of you op.

This looks like a witch hunt.

I really hope you do the wise thing and wind your neck in.

Hamstersball Sun 17-Mar-13 01:21:26

Not jealous, just trying to protect my child. If the bursary had gone to a someone who met all the criteria and was able to behave themself and not cast racial insults at others willy nilly, then I would applauding the scheme.

Hamstersball Sun 17-Mar-13 01:22:44

Anyway I'm really going to go to bed now. Goodnight!

ihearsounds Sun 17-Mar-13 01:33:14

This just gets better. What nasty, gossiping adults you all are. And you have the nerve to work with children. You and your mate need to go and work elsewhere. You clearly have no clue with regards to well, anything.

You are trying to protect your child, from what, another child... And oohh here's a shocker for you. Some of the none bursary children can be a whole lot worse than this child. Has this not occurred to you?

Labro Sun 17-Mar-13 01:34:59

last comment from me, surely reading back your comments you can clearly see that they are based on heresay and gossip? One person at a club said this, another CHILD told you that. None of it is concrete evidence and has no bearing on why this particular child was offered a place and a bursary. Sounds like its time to stop asking questions of everybody you can think of who has even a remote connection to this child ( why would another child feel the need to tell you about an internal exclusion?) and wait and see what actually happens.

piprabbit Sun 17-Mar-13 03:20:55

I'm sure that there will be plenty of other children at your independent school who are also socially immature, ill-behaved, potential bullies. Will you also be campaigning to have them expelled from the school - or will you turn a blind eye if their parents can afford full fees?

ravenAK Sun 17-Mar-13 03:49:46

The bursary is awarded at the discretion of the school.

Nobody has asked you to sit on a selection committee to distribute bursaries based on your personal opinion of potential recipients - because it is NOT YOUR CONCERN. You don't work for the school, you aren't a governor, you aren't a philanthropic donor of a bursary.

It has about as much to do with you as the school's choice of carpet for the Head's study.

Beak out.

Chubfuddler Sun 17-Mar-13 04:03:22

I fear despite the multitude of responses telling you to mind your own, you will sleep on it, awake convinced of your own righteousness and fire off an email to the governors which makes you look like a complete idiot.

Hopefully the school will make allowances for your daughter.

Bloody hell. I can't believe anyone would be so utterly vile about a 9/10 year old. It sounds like you have a weird fixation with this girl. (Who is, incidentally a 'she' not an 'it').

In all honesty, complaining to the school would be bullying and exclusionary behaviour from you. And you may find that trying to get another child excluded from the school, just because you don't like her, ultimately compromises your own daughter's place at the school.

You sound like an absolute nightmare, OP.

akaemmafrost Sun 17-Mar-13 05:00:29

I can't imagine it can be fully legal to go around expressing "concerns" to third parties about people you barely know in order to prevent them from benefitting from opportunities available to them. Slanderous? Perhaps?

SunflowersSmile Sun 17-Mar-13 07:07:12

I think like others it is not your place to question school's bursary decision.
However, as others have said, fine to say girls don't get on/ history between them which means you would prefer them in different classes if possible.
It may not be possible.
Do you trust this school in dealing with all forms of behaviour?
If you do then you should relax a little.

MrsDoomsPatterson Sun 17-Mar-13 07:43:21

Goodness me, you're not coming outta this looking good, are you op? Keep that sticky beak out of it. You sound like a nasty gossip. It's quite vile.

exoticfruits Sun 17-Mar-13 07:52:32

I would mind your own business! Maybe they have picked up on it and think they can help her-I'm sure that independent schools are just as capable of dealing with behaviour problems as state schools!

exoticfruits Sun 17-Mar-13 07:53:32

I don't see how there is any possible way of broaching it without everyone seeing you in a very bad light.

ZZZenAgain Sun 17-Mar-13 07:57:41

I think you can inform the school that your dd has had difficulty with this girl before and that you are very concerned about her joining the school and worried about how your dd will suffer because of this girl's behaviour which you have also winessed. If asked, you can elaborate. But that is probably all you can do. It will be clear to the school that you will take your dd out if there is any trouble with this girl. If exemplary behaviour is a criteria for this award, it does sound as if this girl will soon be in trouble tbh. Red flag it, why not?

Hamstersball Sun 17-Mar-13 08:07:10

The fact that I've known this girl for a number of years, seen her on a weekly basis and spent a lot time with her at weekend and week long camps means I have personally witnessed and experienced her poor behaviour on a regular basis so not gossiping and hearsay. Other parent helpers have also had the same experience with this child and as a result have pulled their dds from the pack. My dd is in the junior section of the school and will start seniors in September. I'm concerned that this girl who seems to act with impunity will affect my dds schooling and also that a more deserving child doesn't get the opportunities the school has to offer. For those who say the school may turn her round I say it's a school not a rehabilitation service.

meditrina Sun 17-Mar-13 08:07:15

Financial awards for academic performance are normally referred to as scholarships. It seems that this school has atypical nomenclature, as well as unusual criteria (normally previous school reference is considered in toto, a specific behavioural one would be weird).

It's very, very rare for a prep to write a glowing reference or a non-glowing pupil. For if they do, that destination school will put less reliance on that HT's word and transfer prospects for all their pupils in future go down. They won't trade their reputation for one pupil placement.

ZZZenAgain Sun 17-Mar-13 08:12:05

If the bursary has been awarded, I don't think you will realistically be able to change this now. Tbh I really don't think it is likely that a school would award a bursary and then rescind that offer after hearing concerns of another parent. It would be awkward for one thing. However, without going into too great detail, I think it would be reasonable to air your concerns as they might affect your dd's schooling experience. This girl may not be a worthy candidate for this bursary, but I think you will have to accept that she will be joining the school now. You can reasonably request that she is not placed in the same class as your dd. You can advise your dd to keep away from her and report any problems. You can resolve to be vigilant and report any problems you hear about and insist on action being taken.

I hope it will not turn out to be as bad as you fear.

duchesse Sun 17-Mar-13 08:12:55

Fear not- if she misbehaves at independent school, she will be removed pretty swiftly.

Kyrptonite Sun 17-Mar-13 08:13:28

Who the fuck made it up to you to decide who is deserving of a bursary?

invicta Sun 17-Mar-13 08:16:03

It's up to the school to decide who to award their bursaries to, or to which pupils to admit to their school.

I know you are concerned for your child's welfare and education. I would follow the other posters advice who suggested contacting the school and requesting they are not in the same class due to previous history.

Branleuse Sun 17-Mar-13 08:18:02

OP you sound like a bully and gossip

duchesse Sun 17-Mar-13 08:18:46

And she is 10.

I'm thinking that your DD is your oldest child...or else you would know that teenage is a long time and that even at 18 a person is not set in stone.

LittlePushka Sun 17-Mar-13 08:18:56

Are you for real? Do you also take a highly subjective and judgemetnal view of pensioners claiming attendance allowance, then seriously consider calling the benefits cheat helpline? Do you, bizarrely, think that you and your behaviour is somehow more deserving?

These are rhetorical questions, please do not reply.

exoticfruits Sun 17-Mar-13 08:21:12

It sounds rather like a poison pen writer!

Needmoresleep Sun 17-Mar-13 08:22:15

You might need to be careful.

We were probably not the only people to raise eyebrows, though chose not to share our thoughts, when a contemporary of my daughter received a full bursary to a highly sought after school, one which turned down my daughter.

A year or two later I heard via others that her home life was unravelling, suggesting long-standing issues that none of us had been aware of. Then by chance I bumped into the deputy Head of her old Primary school. She was not surprised. She did not give much away but suggested she was more than aware of what was going on and had spent a lot of time supporting the girl. We saw problematic behaviour, she saw a girl coping with adversity with a good deal of maturity.

All credit to the secondary school who took a child who needed a safe haven and provided the financial means to enable her to go there. I was left feeling a bit mean spirited and pleased I had kept my thoughts to myself. Ironically it is a school which sometimes attracts posts about its lack of diversity. They would have had many really bright and motivated candidates for their bursaries, but appear to have chosen a girl who in their (and my) eyes stood to benefit most.

MoreBeta Sun 17-Mar-13 08:22:36

The bursary was not awarded on the basis of her behaviour but on the basis of need.

She may benefit and actually change her behaviour in a positive way at a new school. If she continues to behave that way at school she will be asked to leave after several escalating warnings.

Those are the rules.

pansyflimflam Sun 17-Mar-13 08:22:58

So what are you trying to achieve? You actually would like this child removed from the school?? or just her bursary? It is Ok if she goes there but not on a bursary (Itake it you applied and did not get it then) It may be that this school could help to turn her behaviour around but nevermind, it is all about your and your child right?

Can i just say, just so you know that you need to keep your nasty mouth shut - this is a child, whether you like her or not, she is a child and if you go around in a small school like this trying to garner support for this you will have a lawsuit on your hands (you certainly would if she were my daughter)

This is one of those things where you have to suck it up or change schools. Paying your fees does not give you control over the admission policy. You sound so horrible and perhaps you need to spend time supporting your own daughter rather than vilifying someone elses.

pansyflimflam Sun 17-Mar-13 08:27:04

And seriously, it should all be confidential who gets what moneywise because otherwise it can lead to these sort of judgments!

Seriously OP I cannot believe you are for real.

I wish the OP to tell the school, if only to show the school that she's slightly bitter and jealous of a young child. By doing this she would show the school that she -the OP- can't be trusted to remain fair and unbiased.

Chubfuddler Sun 17-Mar-13 08:30:12

It may not be a rehabilitation service (has she committed any crime by the way?) but it is an educational establishment. It's not an exam factory - one of the many advantages of independent education is that they have the time and resources to address a child's needs holistically (I know state schools try to do this too before anyone jumps on me). She's nine for christs sake.

She clearly has problems IF what you say about her is true. Fortunately her personality is not set in concrete probably too late for you though.

Coconutty Sun 17-Mar-13 08:30:14

If you go in to complain about a child who the head has awarded a bursary to, you are going to look extremely bitter.

Just because you have chosen to pay for your DDs education does not mean you have any say at all in who else goes to the school.

I sincerely hope that you have not been going around slagging off this little girl to other parents.

skratta Sun 17-Mar-13 08:31:27

Are you for real? The school have chosen her. They probably have interviewed her and however much she lies, generally schools are used to that and see through it. But even if that wasn't a case, time will tell. 'Informing the school' might just tell them what sort of parent they DON'T want at the school.

DontmindifIdo Sun 17-Mar-13 08:32:31

thing is, the school won't withdraw the bursary on your say so, so the only thing that will achieve is make you look like the "hard work/crazy parent" before your DD has even started at the school, anything further you say in the future, however well founded, will be viewed via this opinion of you. Not fair, but it's what will happen.

What you could say, is that you know this little girl via brownies and you think she is not a positive influence on your DD and would like to request they are in different classes (assuming more than one form entry). Unfortunately, if they stream you might find they are together for some subjects, however if you've made that request the school might make an effort to at least seat them apart.

Ultimately, if your DD decides to be this girl's friend, there's not much you can do about it as she grows (you're getting to the 'losing control' age), but also, if she's as bad as you say, she won't last in the school.

SolomanDaisy Sun 17-Mar-13 08:33:21

If you are genuinely only concerned about the impact on your child, it would be perfectly reasonable to approach the school and explain that you DD has had some difficulties with the girl in the past and ask that they be separated as far as possible. Anything else is absolutely none of your business.

happygardening Sun 17-Mar-13 08:37:14

Im curious how you know this child is in receipt of a bursary? As far as I'm aware bursaries are confidential. You don't mention the parents at all in your enthusiasm to attack this child I suspect if you knew the parents you would have happily included them and critisised them so how do you know? More spiteful gossip is suspect.
In the past I have helped a child from a very complex family situation with at times understandabley difficult behaviour get a bursary and I know of at least two other children who were at times very difficult due to their home circumstances get a bursary. Many independent schools are very willing to offer bursaries to such children wanting and believing that they can help and there are also organisations who provide funding for children from complex and difficult family backgrounds.
This child starts her senior school with a clean slate bursaries are not dished out willy nilly she must have done very well academically in the entrance exam and maybe someone believed in her and was happy to look beyond any bad behaviour and believe that if given the right opportunities she has a lot to offer to not only the school but also the wider world and have decided to give her a chance. How wonderful I only wish more schools took this approach so many children who are often labelled at an early age are thrown into the no hoper/bad behaviour bin and left there to rot. You should be proud that your chosen senior school has enough vision to see beyond bad behaviour at the real child behind it.
Good luck to her I hope she achieves great things.

notimefors Sun 17-Mar-13 08:38:15

You are coming across very badly here and I urge you to think twice before gossiping about a child, as you have been doing plenty it seems, in future.

meditrina Sun 17-Mar-13 08:47:25

happygardening. From a subsequent post by OP, this is in ordinary terminology, a scholarship. It must be one of the school's little foibles to call an academic award by the name usually given to means-tested awards.

runningforthebusinheels Sun 17-Mar-13 08:54:37

I don't think I've ever read a more unpleasant OP.

Say nothing, do nothing. It is none of your business.

SanityClause Sun 17-Mar-13 08:55:44

Contrary to popular belief, independent schools do not just throw out pupils with challenging behaviour.

A girl in DD2's class came up from the junior school with her to the senior school.(I have no idea if she receives a bursary, though.) This girl is a known bully, and had to be fully supervised on a school trip where the girls are usually given a lot of freedom, because of her past behaviour. (This was in the junior school, but she was still offered a place at the very oversubscribed senior school.)

She is in DD's class, and has caused some problems for her and her friends, but my DD has learnt some coping strategies for when this happens, and it seems to have ended, for the tine being. My DD has also spoken to her about her family circumstances, and understands why she can be so horrid, at times. DD likes her, but can't always trust her, IYSWIM.

So, it is good for DD to be in a class with her. She has learnt that you sometimes need to handle difficult people, and has learnt some strategies for doing that. She has also learned that you can try to understand and empathise with them. Very useful life lessons for my DC, never mind the benefits to the other child of attending the school.

happygardening Sun 17-Mar-13 09:00:07

Ah thanks meditrina didn't read all the postings. Oh well I thought it was to good to be true as is so often the case

WishIdbeenatigermum Sun 17-Mar-13 09:11:50

OP, forget about the bursary, it's non of your business. Trying to do anything about it will make you look like a loon.
FWIW, if you had posted 'a girl I've known for several years through an activity I help run as a volunteer is joining my daughter's school. I'm concerned as I've seen her bullying and using racist language and heard she is regularly in trouble at school. She'll know no one else at the school--hmm yeah right--
Actually I can't see how it concerns you at all.

Ronaldo Sun 17-Mar-13 09:12:35

Hamstersball, I am not going to say you are an awful person or condemn you for being concerned about the bahviour of another child. Neither am I going to tell you to stick your noseout. However, I do not think puting your nose in will
(a) do any good
(b) is likely to do harm to your own dd's future ( most may take a simiar view to those expressed by posters here, so the apporach isnt worth it).

However, I can believe what you say ( I am certainly not going to suggest you are poisonous, lying or jealous) . I think you clearly have concerns , although the ay you have expressed them may have got some backs up.

You say this is an independent school that your dd goes to?

Could you remove your dd and send her to another school? Isnt there another school available?

The beauty of the independent system is that you pay the fees and therefore you make the choice about how, where, and who your child is educated with. The who being both other DC and teachers.

I can fully appreciate how you may feel. I can also appreciate that you may feel it should not be your dd who has to move - but the reality is that it will be the most cost effective and practical way.

I had to take my DS out of a school which I felt had DC in it whose behaviour was an issue.

In the long term, if the school values its income, it will be swift in dealing with behavioural isses - and clearly they will be spotted if this child is as you state. However, often even independent schools haveto show some willingness to address and deal with issues before they can invite a child to leave ( or expell them if need be).

You may not feel you want to wait that time or you may feel it will be detrimental to your dd's education and also that your dd should not have to put up with it anyway - and I agree.

If you take your DD elsewhere, I expect there will be an exit interview / paper. State your reasons ( try to be polite and dont come over as you have here ) Just state that some pupils exhibit bullying behaviour and you prefer your dd to not have to work play and learn in that atmosphere.

You will have alerted the school to the problem.

May I finally say that you must tell them though. Too often in the recent past at the school where I work parents have decided not to send their DC or have removed their Dc but have not been honest as to the reasons.

Consequently we have been on a falling roll and not known why.Had parents been honest we could have been quicker dealing with it. We have dealt now but it left us with a reputationand we reap the consequencies as I speak.

Get your dd out of that school. Find a nice place for her and explain to the current school why. Thats my advice.

lljkk Sun 17-Mar-13 09:14:01

Oh FFS, stop haranging OP, OP is entitled to not like the girl, she hasn't broken any sacred confidences (has she??).

Leave the subsidised fees out of it. Just tell the school your DD does NOT get along with other girl and you want yours in separate classes/form as much as possible. School will soon figure out for themselves what she's like and if they were given false info by anyone. School can't take a random parent's word for it anyway, about the girl's character, so no benefit in OP saying anything more.

lljkk Sun 17-Mar-13 09:14:51

Seems likely there will be a whole queue of parents with same concerns as OP, anyway, if girl is that notorious.

DontmindifIdo Sun 17-Mar-13 09:20:32

Actually Lljkk makes a good point, if you stick to saying you want your DD in a different class, but then others do too, the school will be highlighted to the fact there's a problem with that girl without having to sink to gossip and nasty comments.

Hamstersball Sun 17-Mar-13 09:24:45

I don't know the girl's mum well just on nodding terms with her , my concern is with her dds behaviour. I know the leaders speak to her regularly about her dds behaviour but she will not accept her dds is at fault blaming the other dcs and lack of suitable activities to keep her dd occupied. I fear this child has no deterrents for her poor behaviour and she is actually being rewarded for it. If all of you can remember the child in your class who was clever but a nightmare behaviour wise then would you want them to invited to be part of your dcs year group and share a commute on the bus with them?

tigerellatomato Sun 17-Mar-13 09:27:03

Just joined this thread and agree with lljkk that it's got pretty nasty to OP. I am guessing OP you feel it's not "fair". May not be a grown-up feeling, but we all have it from time to time. Let it go, it appears to be eating you up. The truth is, it may not be "fair" or it may be - you don't really know why the school has done this.

You want to protect your DD from this girl. I understand. Call the school and ask that she be put in another class as there is past history. Do not elaborate, it will only make you look bad. This type of thing is commonplace and most schools happily comply. THEN, teach your daughter strategies to keep away from said girl in a polite way if you fear she'll make a beeline for her. They'll be useful anyway as we all come across difficult people in our lifetimes. Then RELAX. AS with most things, the reality will not be as bad as your worst 4am fears.

lljkk Sun 17-Mar-13 09:27:49

That's there I side with rest of thread, it will benefit your Dd to learn to deal with difficult people (up to a point). You can't shield her forever. If other girl is truly horrendous school will have to resolve to keep its customers.

(Didn't have a clever-but-nightmare child ever in my classes, unless I was that person, ArArAr...)

lljkk Sun 17-Mar-13 09:28:35

That's WHERE I side... (oops)

happygardening Sun 17-Mar-13 09:38:13

"Could you remove your dd and send her to another school? Isnt there another school available?"
How ridiculous. Assuming this isn't a tiny senior school with only 10 children in each year then surely even if in the same class the OP's daughter will have enough sense to just avoid this child.
We cant organise our DC's lives so that they never come into contact with children who may be perceived by many as undesirable neither as Sanity points out neither should we want too. You think you know about this particular child but she will not be alone there will be others many who appear on the surface to be absolutely charming but underneath are equally as badly behaved just in a less in your face way. I know which one I would prefer.

trixymalixy Sun 17-Mar-13 09:38:44

Do you really think the school would withdraw the bursary on your say so?

I agree with others, your only course of action is to ask for your DD to be in a different class.

Hamstersball Sun 17-Mar-13 09:39:41

I know the child has been given bursary as her mum was telling everyone in brownies and since the school only offers one 97% bursary for that year group I know it's substantial. The fact they are only paying a nominal fees I feel gives them little incentive to work on improving her behaviour. I have a lot more to lose if her behaviour affects my dds schooling. I appreciate what people are saying on this thread but I work hard, scrimp and save and do without to ensure my dd has the best education possible and if it makes me look bad to say something to the school then it's a gamble I'm prepared to take to protect her education.

DontmindifIdo Sun 17-Mar-13 09:42:47

BTW - you could look at this as an advantage, there's someone in every school, at least you know who the girl is in this one, you can ask in advance for your DD not to be in the same class as her/not to be sat near her if they are streamed into the same group without having to wait until it's a problem and you can talk to your DD in advance about ways to avoid getting sucked into trouble, talk to your DD about racism and why it's wrong etc.

Ronaldo Sun 17-Mar-13 09:46:44

Actually Lljkk makes a good point, if you stick to saying you want your DD in a different class, but then others do too,

The biggestptoblem with this is a purely practical one. Clearly the Dc concerned will have to be in a class with other children. It may not be practical to remove any orall other DC on request.

Most schools set or stream. If the DC concerned is able then it is likely she will be in top sets. If therefore the OP asks for her dd to be in a different class, she is going to be put in bottom sets. ( lets be clear about that!).

Hamstersball Sun 17-Mar-13 09:47:24

DD has had to deal with this particular child for the past 4 years on a weekly basis and at various overnight and week long camps, days out as well. She is tired of having to deal with her and has asked not to go into guides just to avoid this particular girl. She has been at the school for the past 6 years and was looking forward to going up to the seniors but now with the prospect of this girl also being there has said she wants to go to a different school. Since we have not applied for any other schools this isn't really an option.

Rainbowinthesky Sun 17-Mar-13 09:47:28

Hamsterball - I am shocked that you are privy to so much information about another dc not in your family. You seem unhealthily obsessed about a child and if I knew you in rl I would avoid you like the plague. Did a member of after school club staff really share that sort of information with you? How did such a conversation start? Was she simply nodding at your rants or did she start it? I cannot imagine how you both would start randomly talking about a child not in your family???

I think you should tell the school. They have a right to know the sort of person you are and can take steps to limit the damage you can cause to a child's reputation.

Poor kid.

Rainbowinthesky Sun 17-Mar-13 09:48:28

I would not have allowed my dd to attend week long stays and over nights with staff I didnt trust. Why did you?

happygardening Sun 17-Mar-13 09:50:36

Bright children which obviously this child is are not necessarily easy. The child's mother maybe right there are a lack of "suitable" activities at brownies to keep her occupied maybe she's just too grown up for it. Very bright children react in different ways to be being bored or as so often the case are unwilling or unable to comply. I had a super bright friend (a brownie and guide where she caused havoc) whose behaviour was absolutely outrageous both at home at school and in other activities her reputation travelled before he and behind her as well. My DS's super bright friend is a notorious hooligan.
Hopefully at secondary school and especially if the school is selective she will get enough intellectual stimulation and may change her behaviour.

Ronaldo Sun 17-Mar-13 09:54:15

Someone is going to have to be in that DC's class happygardening. Schools do not work on parallel classes or non set classes mostly ( atsenior level). if it is a small school there may only be two classes- the top setand the bottom set.

That is a very practical problem.Often a change of school will be the only alternative.

It is no use saying to me ( I dont know about the Op) that a DC can learn from having a crap experience in the classroom and its good for them. I dont agree. No one should be made ( and certainly NOT at school ) to put their head down, and stick their fingers in their ears and hope they are the target or victim and try to get on with it.

That isnt what learning ( of all things) should be aboout. Toop often in state schools it is but in indepenendent schools one pays ones money and one should therefore be able to exercise choice. Thats the whole point.

Ronaldo Sun 17-Mar-13 09:58:02

She has been at the school for the past 6 years and was looking forward to going up to the seniors but now with the prospect of this girl also being there has said she wants to go to a different school. Since we have not applied for any other schools this isn't really an option

It is not too late to look at and apply for other schools. Its never too late in the independent sector. Find some alternatives and look around. Any indi worth its salt will invite you in ( and even offer a taster day).

You have until Easter to tender your notice to leave to your current school. We are not there yet.

ifancyashandy Sun 17-Mar-13 09:58:07

This comes down to money. You seem to think you have more 'sway' or 'voice' as you are paying the full fees. Terms such as 'only paying a nominal amount' and 'invited to join' give you away.

Horrible snobbish attitude and also what everyone else said about this being a child & a situation in which you may not be in full possession of the facts.

happygardening Sun 17-Mar-13 09:58:35

Im confused is has this child ben offered a bursary or a scholarship?
OP I think you are unnecessarily hung up about this child and are passing you problems with her onto your DD.
For heaven sake forget it. She cant be the only new child .
I too very much hope that you have not been slagging this child off to other parents or even worse teachers.
A child is entitled to make a fresh start.

ArtexMonkey Sun 17-Mar-13 09:59:46

She hasn't 'been invited to be part of your dc's year group' ffs, you sound like you think this is an exclusive club to which your dd already belongs but which is now letting in undesirables. They have both been offered a place at a school.

If i see someone i don't like in tesco, i can't march up to the till and demand they don't serve them, i can either get on with my life or go shopping somewhere else, same for you with this. You could have spent the time you have spent writing this thread researching other schools and seeing if there's any way you could get a late admission, but this is how you have chosen to spend your time, and tbh it speaks volumes about you.

Your dd will know a lot more people coming up from the juniors than this other little girl will, she will have established friendships, what exactly are you worried about? Do you think so little of this school that they will allow one child to disrupt a whole year group? You are being very slack in not looking into other options in that case.

You need to let this go.

trixymalixy Sun 17-Mar-13 10:01:39

Hamsterball, you haven't answered my question. Do you really expect them to withdraw the bursary when you tell the school your opinion of this girl? What exactly do you think will happen?

Hamstersball Sun 17-Mar-13 10:02:52

Rainbow I have been to the majority of the days out/camps because Of the lack of other parent helpers. I have done this because my dds has enjoyed brownies and got a lot out of it despite this child. This child has been spoken to time and time again about her behaviour and language, the last time was on Friday when she called a dc with SEN a "spaz" and kept repeating it despite being told off and threatened with being sent home early which was not carried out

IndridCold Sun 17-Mar-13 10:04:33

You need to give this girl the benefit of the doubt. If your DDs school is anything like the prep my DS went to then she will most likely benefit from being challenged academically, kept busy all day until 5pm and subject to firmer discipline.

There were a couple of children at DSs school on bursaries whose behaviour was what might be described as challenging. One continued to be unbelievably naughty and was eventually asked to leave, the other managed to settle down a lot. Neither of them caused any trouble that the other children couldn't cope with.

BettySuarez Sun 17-Mar-13 10:05:35

Jesus Christ OP

It's this kind of pack mentality that saw the Jews being gassed in the chambers.

This child and her life is absolutely none of your fucking business. You are in danger of coming across as unhinged

Ronaldo Sun 17-Mar-13 10:07:02

I know the child has been given bursary as her mum was telling everyone in brownies and since the school only offers one 97% bursary for that year group I know it's substantial. The fact they are only paying a nominal fees I feel gives them little incentive to work on improving her behaviour. I have a lot more to lose if her behaviour affects my dds schooling. I appreciate what people are saying on this thread but I work hard, scrimp and save and do without to ensure my dd has the best education possible and if it makes me look bad to say something to the school then it's a gamble I'm prepared to take to protect her education

Look for another school. You are paying fees. You do not have to accept anything less than what you want. You may like this school but it may not be the same next year.

As soon as you look - and your DC is out for aday with you looking round - the school will be alert to the fact you are looking. They will ask why. Tell them that your dd wants to move because of this issue You will have made the point. No need to mention biursaries.

Just because you have said you will transfer your dd to senior does not mean you have to - not at this point.

I am sure thereareother equally good schools foryour dd where she will be free from this issue. Go for it!

happygardening Sun 17-Mar-13 10:07:22

"It is not too late to look at and apply for other schools. Its never too late in the independent sector. Find some alternatives and look around. Any indi worth its salt will invite you in ( and even offer a taster day)."
Ronaldo you are obviously not involved or familiar with the same sort of "indie" schools that I am; all have filled their vacancies for this September and also have children on waiting lists already interviewed and pre tested and lets not forget parents desperately hoping a place might come up.
"Someone is going to have to be in that DC's class happygardening."
Yes they will at every school in the UK whether it is be the poorest performing state or a top performing super selective independent charging £34 000 PA will have children in their classes who are badly behaved. Thats life our DC's have to learn to carry on regardless.

Hamstersball Sun 17-Mar-13 10:07:31

I don't expect the school to withdraw the bursary on my say so but I would expect them to re look her application and ask her primary school more specific questions such as recorded incidences of poor behaviour, exclusions and request to look at her school record so far which would be sent to them in any case when she transfers from primary to secondary school. Then I woul expect he school to make a judgement whether this child has a valuable contribution to make to the school life to justify the very substantial bursary she is getting.

MrsDeVere Sun 17-Mar-13 10:07:34

Has this thread turned out to be real then shock

You think you get a say because you have more money?
Now the 'she is mean to kids with SN' comes out. Do you think that will sway the might of MN your way.

I really thought this was a troll thread. I hate it when the evidence that people like you exist is thrust at me like this.

TheChaoGoesMu Sun 17-Mar-13 10:09:24

You seem to be under the illusion that because you are going to be paying for your childs class, you also get to choose who else goes to her school. If you feel that strongly about it, ask that they are not in the same class, or look around for other schools and see if they have space, or homeschool. Homeschooling is probably the only way you would have complete control of your dd's environment. After all, even if you did manage to rip this opportunity away from that girl, you really have no idea who the other children are in your dd's class are, and what undesirable traits they may have either.

tethersend Sun 17-Mar-13 10:09:39

grin at OP's dawning realisation that you cannot buy your way away from children you disapprove of.

That's not how schools work. Not even private ones.

Besides which, you seem to have no faith in this school whatsoever to deal with this child's behavioural issues. Are you sure you want your daughter to go there?

MrsDeVere Sun 17-Mar-13 10:11:26

yeah. Definitely homeschool.
Do that.

BettySuarez Sun 17-Mar-13 10:13:55
Ronaldo Sun 17-Mar-13 10:14:16

Using artex monkeys analogy about Tesco. we used to shop at our local Tesco. However recently it has appears to be fullof arrogant and rather rude shoppers who push and shove and queue jump and aregenerally loud and obnoxious. As AM says we cannot change that so DW and I now shop at Morrisons some 10 miles further away but its worth it.

Tesco has lost my ( and possibly a lot of other) trade. I did write to them expressing my disappointment in their store and saying I waslooking elsewhere following an incident at the till. Thats all one can do.

Morrisons has been a more pleasant experience.

meditrina Sun 17-Mar-13 10:14:55

If this school really has a 97% non-means-tested financial award that is well known, then applicants will be beating the door down to apply and the school really can have its pick.

As I posted above, other schools won't be trading their whole reputation on one reference for one pupil one year, especially as such an unusual award as this means they will be writing up more than one pupil.

OP: you have to face it - either the school wants this pupil, or it is administratively incompetent. Either way, it sounds as if you might find a better fit to your family ethos if you look to move your DD as soon as this can be achieved.

happygardening Sun 17-Mar-13 10:15:55

"I don't expect the school to withdraw the bursary on my say so but I would expect them to re look her application and ask her primary school more specific questions such as recorded incidences of poor behaviour, exclusions and request to look at her school record so far which would be sent to them in any case when she transfers from primary to secondary school. Then I woul expect he school to make a judgement whether this child has a valuable contribution to make to the school life to justify the very substantial bursary she is getting."
How do you know that this hasn't been done? Why are you assuming the primary school has either lied, or voluntarily chosen to to divulge this information.
Just because you pay it doesn't thankfully entitle you to influence the decision the school makes about who else to admit.
If this is genuine I think this smacks of pure jealously this child is obviously clever than your DD and has on this bassi been offered a bursary scholarship.

lljkk Sun 17-Mar-13 10:16:47

the school can't investigate on your sayso. Just focus on your child's needs. For all you know Lots of Children have false information lurking in their applications.

One time on one of my email lists a woman joined, "Ruby". I knew Ruby from other fora and that she was an obnoxious loon; I instantly emailed privately a (quiet, uninfluential) mate on the list and said "OMG I can't believe who just joined". I was even asked few weeks later to say something publicly against Ruby but I refused because I didn't want to become part of a bullying culture.

Ruby left about 3 months later having seriously upset a lot of people, but I didn't have any guilt about her being hounded out. She brought it on herself, fair and square.

Bunbaker Sun 17-Mar-13 10:16:48

"She has been at the school for the past 6 years and was looking forward to going up to the seniors but now with the prospect of this girl also being there has said she wants to go to a different school. Since we have not applied for any other schools this isn't really an option"

Just tell the school ^^
Forget the fact that the bully has been offered a bursary. Your main concern is the wellbeing of your daughter. I think some of the responses on here have been uncalled for. I suspect that they don't have children who have been bullied by someone in their class and have no idea how miserable it can make life for a child and their parents.

I speak from experience. For the best part of a year DD's life was utterly miserable because of one girl. The anxiety that DD' unhappiness caused me was tremendous.

The school moved DD to a new tutor group and will be placing the bully into a different class in September. Fortunately DD has made a new group of friends outside her class and the bully now leaves her alone. Lately she has been using her controlling tactics on other girls instead. I have known this girl through primary school and she has a stable and loving home life so I have no idea why she is like she is.

tethersend Sun 17-Mar-13 10:17:57

Ronaldo, the analogy would only work if you'd seen those customers be rude in other shops. Through the window. And then called the manager to eject them when they tried to enter Tesco.

And then stormed out when the manager gently explains that it's a shop.

Ronaldo Sun 17-Mar-13 10:18:22

*Ronaldo you are obviously not involved or familiar with the same sort of "indie" schools that I am; all have filled their vacancies for this September and also have children on waiting lists already interviewed and pre tested and lets not forget parents desperately hoping a place might come up.
"Someone is going to have to be in that DC's class happygardening."
Yes they will at every school in the UK whether it is be the poorest performing state or a top performing super selective independent charging £34 000 PA will have children in their classes who are badly behaved. Thats life our DC's have to learn to carry on regardless*

Not whereI am ( and given the recession probably not across the counrty frankly, I dont buy it). Nearly all will carry a spare capacity anyway.

Ofcourse publically the face is " we have allocated places earlier " - itsa publicity ploy often. Many take places at several schools.They will go to one.

I think OP will find a school quite easily if she looks around .

happygardening Sun 17-Mar-13 10:20:42

Ronaldo re your Tescos analogy as I said you are obviously not familiar with the sort of oversubscribed schools that many on MN are. You only have to go onto the senior school section to read postings by mothers desperate to move their children off waiting lists for Eton St Pauls Sevenoaks and Winchester all "worth their salt".

Ronaldo Sun 17-Mar-13 10:22:02

You seem to be under the illusion that because you are going to be paying for your childs class, you also get to choose who else goes to her school

Maybe not, b but she certainly does have a choice as to whom she chooses to send her dd to school with. She needs to exercise it.

BoundandRebound Sun 17-Mar-13 10:22:03

What a disgusting individual

And no I am not talking about the child

<rubs eyes>
Nope, thread is still here.
OP, you sound bonkers. If the school have received a reference from her previous school, they probably already know about any behavioural issues she does or does not have. I doubt they'd thank you for implying that you know better than they do about what processes to follow hmm

ifancyashandy Sun 17-Mar-13 10:23:03

How will you feel / deal with it if the school does respond to your 'input' and re-investigates the child's application buy stands by its decision?

BettySuarez Sun 17-Mar-13 10:24:39

OP please stop and think about this for a minute.

We get that you are concerned for your DD.

But to the point where you are prepared to engage in the worst form of human behaviour?

Please don't do this sad

Ronaldo Sun 17-Mar-13 10:24:51

Happygardening - if the Queen came along tomorrow and asked Eton to take a child of her aquaintence, despite those waiting lists, there would be a place.
These schools are not full - and neither are most of the others. Criteria may be different in other schools.

If the OP looks I am confident she will find a school.

trixymalixy Sun 17-Mar-13 10:25:34

You're clearly determined to carry on despite the unanimous opinion on here that it's not a good idea. Good Luck. Hope you're happy with the outcome.

ifancyashandy Sun 17-Mar-13 10:25:50

*but not buy...

MTSgroupie Sun 17-Mar-13 10:26:12

Here OP, have a brew

Its none of your business who the school awards a bursary to. Its either based on academic merit or financial need so the child's behavior has no bearing on thiis. And even if it wasn't, it's still none of your business.

That aside, the comments directed at you are very mean and hypocrital. I suspect that if the girl was placed at THEIR school and it was THEIR DCs education she was disrupting then these posters would sing a different song.

We had such a kid at our indie. He got suspended for three days twice for making racist jokes and for hitting another kid. He didn't return for Year 8.

His academics weren't great either so we've no idea whether the school asked him to leave or whether it was the parents choice. Anyway, parents who pay £x,000 pa aren't going to put up with this kind of disruptive pupil for long so if she is that bad then the other parents will soon enough collectively take active to pressure the school.

I agree with the posters who suggested that you leave this bursary thing well alone. It isn't going to have a happy ending for you. Instead just make it clear that you have concerns about your DD being in the same class as this girl. Most schools don't set/stream until year 8 or 9. Who knows, by then she might have resolved her issues (unlikely) or she might be gone.

I am bit shock at the posters who suggest that it is a good thing to be exposed to difficult people from a self development viewpoint. I wonder if non white parent tell their DCs that its good to go to school with a racist kid because it teaches them about the real world?

ifancyashandy Sun 17-Mar-13 10:26:44

OFFS... by its decision...

happygardening Sun 17-Mar-13 10:28:53

"Not whereI am ( and given the recession probably not across the counrty frankly, I dont buy it). Nearly all will carry a spare capacity anyway.

Ofcourse publically the face is " we have allocated places earlier " - itsa publicity ploy often. Many take places at several schools.They will go to one."

Well Ronaldo where i am its different I know of one mum desperate to get off the Winchester waiting list and many who were and are absolutely desperate to get off the Eton waiting list and were or will be very disappointed that they failed to do so ditto St Pauls. We also have also have many friends in London looking at 11+ entries who are either sitting on waiting lists for well know selectives again who failed to get off them or have little hope of getting of them. I accept that second rate school might be struggling to fill their vacancies but the top ones aren't.

happygardening Sun 17-Mar-13 10:32:21

"Happygardening - if the Queen came along tomorrow and asked Eton to take a child of her aquaintence, despite those waiting lists, there would be a place."
THis may be the case but as far as I can work out the OP isn't the Queen I'm no royalists but I believe the Queen wouldn't behave in such a crass way.
Secondly do you really believe that Eton et al has vacancies? Do you think the waiting lists are just for publicity?

Ronaldo Sun 17-Mar-13 10:34:48

I know of one mum desperate to get off the Winchester waiting list and many who were and are absolutely desperate to get off the Eton waiting list and were or will be very disappointed that they failed to do so ditto St Pauls

I repeathappygardening - if the Queen cam along and asked that any of those schools find a placefor a child of her aquainence, one would be available immediately.

They are not full. They are choosey. WE can all be choosey like that. Clearly the OP does not currently have her dd in such a choosey school, otherwise they would probably not have accepted a dc with er a reputation so questionable

difficultpickle Sun 17-Mar-13 10:34:51

OP I was commmenting on your manners not the child in question.

You sound as if you have little faith in the school your dd attends if you think that this child could make such a devastating impact. Ime of prep schools the one thing they deal with very well is bullying and bad behaviour.

Ds had a problem recently at his new school and I was very impressed at how it was dealt with and how quickly it was resolved. I had complete faith that the school would deal with it. If I didn't then I would be moving ds to another school.

When ds started school in reception I asked that he was not in the same class as another child, partly because I wanted him to make an effort to make friends (which neither he nor the other child would have bothered to do if they were in the same class) but partly because the child's parents were hugely competitive about everything and I couldn't face that competition being carried on at school. The school accommodated my request.

As for one 97% bursary the school would not have awarded this without a good deal of thought. Although as it is non-means tested it sounds as if it is actually a scholarship rather than a bursary.

Ds has a substantial scholarship. For that he had to take exams, do a voice trial, spend time at school (including boarding). I reckon by the end of the process the school had a very good idea of the sort of child ds is. It is an honour and a privilege to have a scholarship and the school will expect their scholars to set an example in their behaviour and how they are at school.

I imagine that your school saw something in this child that merited such a prestigious award. You can be certain that if this child behaves the way you describe then she won't be at the school for very long.

Ronaldo Sun 17-Mar-13 10:35:47

I know Eton could find a place for a suitable pupil if one presented.

difficultpickle Sun 17-Mar-13 10:38:47

The other thing the school will have had is a detailed reference from the child's headteacher. From what you say the head would have had to lie in that reference for this child to receive the bursary. That is a very serious allegation to contemplate making.

happygardening Sun 17-Mar-13 10:40:14

"I repeathappygardening - if the Queen cam along and asked that any of those schools find a placefor a child of her aquainence, one would be available immediately.

They are not full. They are choosey. WE can all be choosey like that. Clearly the OP does not currently have her dd in such a choosey school, otherwise they would probably not have accepted a dc with er a reputation so questionable"
I repat the OP is not the queen. Perhaps you'd like to explain to me as to why there's numerous posting on MN about moving off the Eton waiting list if this was just a publicity stunt.

happygardening Sun 17-Mar-13 10:44:14

"I know Eton could find a place for a suitable pupil if one presented."
Really there are plenty of genuine Eton experts on here who I think would disagree. My friend tried to get her exceedingly able DS into a super selective boarding school they put him on their waiting list and were optimistic a place might come up in the near future becasue they really wanted him but at that particular moment there were simply not enough beds to put this child in.

meditrina Sun 17-Mar-13 10:44:40

How other schools manage their intakes isn't the key question here.

OP is asking if she should make a statement to the school, on partial information (unless she has read the reference and sat in on the whole admissions round), which shows she has no faith in the school's judgement, administrative standards, pastoral care or behaviour management standards. Given that lack of faith in so many areas, it is probably not a place she is happy for her DD to continue at (for those issues have much wider implications than the admission or otherwise of one girl), so a change is probably in her DD's interests.

difficultpickle Sun 17-Mar-13 10:49:30

But that is the case anywhere. If a child is exceptional most schools would do their best to find a place. However I imagine that the OP's child is a normal little girl who doesn't want to spend any time with the child the OP is talking about.

I assume if the child in question has a 97% scholarship/bursary for prep then they will need a similar sized one or more for senior school. They are very hard to come by and there is huge competition so this child really would have to be exceptional to get one. It may therefore be a short term problem for the OP if her dd is in year 5 and moving schools for year 7.

Bunbaker Sun 17-Mar-13 10:51:06

"I am bit shock at the posters who suggest that it is a good thing to be exposed to difficult people from a self development viewpoint. I wonder if non white parent tell their DCs that its good to go to school with a racist kid because it teaches them about the real world?"

Well said MTSgroupie I suspect these parents haven't had to deal with the kind of bullying my daughter has. The effect it has on a child's self esteem is so damaging.

Did anyone watch the bit in comic relief about the boy who killed himself because of some awful cyber bullying?

Ronaldo Sun 17-Mar-13 10:51:10

Oh , I see, I cant be genuine because I disagree with happygardening. Ad hoc argumentum ad hominem gets us nowhere.

You clearly have nothing else to offer then? Ok then dont offer it.

difficultpickle Sun 17-Mar-13 10:51:58

Great post meditrina. I also think that becoming unhappy with the school is a gradual process and maybe the fact that this child has been given this award has acted as a catalyst making the OP realise how she feels about her dd's school.

Ronaldo Sun 17-Mar-13 10:52:16

How other schools manage their intakes isn't the key question here


difficultpickle Sun 17-Mar-13 10:56:11

Bunbaker I did. Ds was bullyed very very briefly at school and I was devastated at how quickly he changed and was affected by it. Thankfully because the school dealt with it so quickly ds is getting back to being his old self but the pain I felt at watching him go through it is indescribable. Fortunately because the school dealt with it quickly and because I had faith as a parent and ds trusted his teachers I doubt there will be any long lasting negative effects.

Ronaldo Sun 17-Mar-13 11:11:42

When I was a young man I knew a girl who came to University and was taking my course, was an elective mute. In fact she was virtually totally mute in all classes and in breaks. I found out she had spent five years being bullied at her last school ( not moved) and that in her last yearat that school she had been "sent to Coventry" as a result of one bully who controlled her class.

That was an extrme form. I guess today we would call her behaviour PTSD.

In the three years she improved only slightly. When I did get something out of her ( I was her tutor at the time) it became obvious she had once been an animated and very artiuculate young lady. Very nice girl. She went on to a Ph.D. Bullying can be devestating but the only real way of dealing with it in our society seems to be to move yourself from it.

Ronaldo Sun 17-Mar-13 11:12:59

Thats an aside btw. Not quite sure why she suddenly came to mind Sorry

seeker Sun 17-Mar-13 11:15:09

So money can't buy everything. Who'd a thunk it? grin

happygardening Sun 17-Mar-13 11:18:39

"it is a good thing to be exposed to difficult people from a self development viewpoint."
I take this view when our DC's go out into the increasingly tough world of work then they will not only be "exposed" to difficult people but will be required to work along side them or have a difficult person in either a position of authority or be in a position of authority over one. Where do our DC's begin to learn these skills? At school, brownies, guides, ATC, football, uni. When I was at uni we had a girl who'd never even began to learnt these skills she was incapable of working in a team, unable to deal with those who wouldn't t do it her way. My DS who full boards cant possible like all he lives with there's 60 and they wont all like him but he has to learnt to live and work along side of them this IMO is as a useful life skill as a whole pile of A*'s.

difficultpickle Sun 17-Mar-13 11:23:25

Surely school should be a safe haven like home? I have no wish for ds to be exposed to difficult people as a child. He will spend a lifetime as an adult doing that. As a child he simply isn't equipped with the knowledge or confidence to deal with a child who bullies. My job as his parent is to protect him and nuture him, not to expose him to bullies as a life lesson.

Ronaldo Sun 17-Mar-13 11:26:26

I wonder what my elective mute student would have said to your ideas happy gardening?

Personally I take the view that young developing personalities need protecting and that there is plenty of time to learn todealwith the sh*ts of the workplace once one has a stable secure and confident self to launch from. Bullying in schools stunts that and that is why e should not apllow it - or alternatively why DC need tobe protected and moved if necessary. No one should have to learn with such low lifes. Bad enough having to work with them sometimes.

Ronaldo Sun 17-Mar-13 11:27:04

Absolutely agree bisjo

MTSgroupie Sun 17-Mar-13 11:29:44

happy - my DCs don't need to be in the same class as a bully in order to learn that not everyone is nice or how to deal with them in the real world.

But if you feel that your DCs will be better rounded adults if they go to school with disruptive children who may be bullies or racists then don't let me stand in your way

ArtexMonkey Sun 17-Mar-13 11:46:04

Of course schools, state or private, should not expect children to put up with bullying or racism. But this has not happened yet. Apparently it happens in brownies, but op still chooses to send her dd. It seems she's not that bothered by it, not until a 97% school fee bursary is on the table. Nowt so queer as folk huh?

exoticfruits Sun 17-Mar-13 11:48:11

Good grief! This thread has moved on and strayed right off the point.

The school has academic bursaries to give-they held tests and interviews and gave one. End of story-if the DC doesn't fit they can take it away.

It is a much better system than leaving it to parents to say-'she might be clever but she is is a nasty piece of work and she must have a false reference'-which is very subjective. Do you really think that if OP goes to the Head with this information they will say 'thank you for putting us straight, we will withdraw the place'? Really? hmm

There is only one piece of advice-'mind your own business'. The rest is superfluous.

lainiekazan Sun 17-Mar-13 12:08:45

On the side issue: I once worked for someone of, how shall I say, repute who came to this country from abroad. Eton instantly found a place for their ds. He was a decent enough lad but not especially clever.

The bursary is a red herring, which may irk the OP but is irrelevant. After all if the child in question's parents won the Lottery the child would still be there. All OP can do is contact the school and ask for her dd to be placed in a different class.

hollyanthus Sun 17-Mar-13 12:10:01

And on a different thread, where most of the kids in the class are being disrupted / picked on by one child ........ I am being told to NOT trust the teachers, but to keep going in and complain. Oh and take my child away and change her school!

Incidentally I have been in again to complain - and what they said was - we need parents to come in and tell us, as we don't see everything / or hear both sides. Also they didn't realise what he would be like before they took him on, because they only did an interview, as strangely enough he wasn't available during term time for an assessment day, even though he was being home schooled.

OP - I can appreciate the difficult situation you are in. I would ask for your DD to be in a different class, and give the reasons why in a very sketchy outline basis. If asked to elaborate - say that she may be different in a different environment and you want her to be given the chance - but due to historical reasons you do not believe your DD nor the girl would benefit from being in the same class. Then wash your hands of it, you know you have protected your DD, and it is up to the school to deal with the behaviour.

I have been told that if I wish for my DD to be kept apart from the kid in question, then they can do this. How I would love to know, given they are in the same class ... but the offer is there! OP, if you flag up yoru desire for your DD to be in a different class before the term has started, then I am sure they will be able to accomodate you.

I feel quite strongly that when my child (and every other child in her class) had to go in to be assessed prior to being offered a place, to ensure that she met the behavioural criteria for the school, then the same criteria should apply to all students. Otherwise the parents are being given a misleading impression of the behavioural standards to the school. Some parents do have reasons why they want a calm nurturing environment for their children, and not ones where they can be subject to random unprovoked verbal / physical attacks.

seeker Sun 17-Mar-13 12:39:26

I don't understand why the bursary is even remotely relevant. When my dd went to secondary school, there was a particular child we didn't want her to be too close to, we told the school and it was quietly and efficiently sorted. Actually, her primary school had already told them. Happens all the time. Do the same, OP. Your problem solved. Other people's problems possibly only just starting, but that's another story.

SanityClause Sun 17-Mar-13 13:00:39

OP, just because she gets away with poor behaviour at Brownies, does not mean she will get say with poor behaviour at school.

You say that the Brown Owl makes threats about going home early that she doesn't then carry out. Well, of course the child continues with the bad behaviour. She's had all of the attention, and none of the consequences.

This is unlikely to happen in the school, though.

happygardening Sun 17-Mar-13 13:01:12

"my DCs don't need to be in the same class as a bully in order to learn that not everyone is nice or how to deal with them in the real world."
But it is inevitable that it will happen. Children bully other children there is not a school out there which will guarantee that bullying doesn't occur. The OP knows about this child but could move her DD to another child and there will probably be A N Other who bullies children. We cannot always protect our children from bullies and look for a utopian land where it does not happen nor can we run away from these children when it does happen. It is how its dealt with by the school and the children that matters.

Movingtimes Sun 17-Mar-13 13:08:38

I'm a Brown Owl. I have to say if I had a child like the one you describe in my pack I would view it as an opportunity for me to help her improve her behaviour and learn to get along with others better, not to turn up my nose at her. We do have girls with challenging behaviour in the pack from time to time and we are always aware of our responsibilities towards them as well as to the rest of the pack, but if any of our parent helpers were exhibiting the immature and superior attitude you do towards a child they would be politely asked to stop helping.

exoticfruits Sun 17-Mar-13 13:17:55

Exactly Movingtimes. If my child was at a school where the Head took notice of gossiping parents I think that I would remove my children. You expect them to make open minded decisions, which is what has been done.
I like the fact that Scouts and Guides are all inclusive.

JollyGolightly Sun 17-Mar-13 13:34:17

This is a really nasty, judgemental post. You have no idea about this child's circumstances, or the reasons for her behaviour. The school has clearly found sufficient reasons to award her a bursary, good for the school. Perhaps they realise her potential and hope to channel it appropriately. It's nothing to do with you.

Chubfuddler Sun 17-Mar-13 13:34:45

A good friend of mine, who genuinely is a nice person, took alarm when a child she considered difficult from our children's old school came for a taster day at their new school (our boys moved together at the start of year one). I warned her not to but she took it upon herself to speak to the head about the child and make vague hints that she and others might withdraw if this child joined.

The head was furious with her. Really really gave her what for (very politely).

difficultpickle Sun 17-Mar-13 13:35:20

happy I was committing on the post that effectively said there is nothing wrong with a child being subjected to bad behaviour and bullying as it prepares them for the real world (I've paraphrased). Ime there is everything wrong with exposing your child to that.

I disagree that you cannot protect your child from bullies. Of course you can. That is one's job as a parent. When it happened to ds I promised him that it would be resolved. Ds knows I never break my promises. It has been resolved but if it reappears both ds and the school know that I will not tolerate it for one second and expect the school to do the same.

I have removed ds from a school where he had a teacher who bullied pupils and parents and the head did worse than nothing (denied it happened despite the fact that other parents had removed their dcs mid year because of this teacher).

Labro Sun 17-Mar-13 13:37:01

Thoughout the whole of this thread, there are no facts from the OP. There is gossip, school gate bitching and more gossip based on the OP helping out occassionally at a voluntary group and what her dd and other children below the age of 10 think. This has no relevance to a school situation and how a school allocate a place and a bursary. The OP can request a preference that the other child be in a different class due to how the OP feels, but she does not have influence on a much higher decision making process. OP, you will have to accept that you have no part in this process, it is entirely possible that there would be 'difficult' children in the school who you have no personal experience of and whose parents are paying full fees, you would then deal with this difficult behaviour if and when it has a negative impact on your child, not before, and not because of hearsay and gossip mongering. This is the attitude which would gain support, not obvious jealousy at what has been given to another.
My ds whispers is on a 'substantial bursary' due to a child with a mother with an attitude like yours, ds moved from a state primary due to horrific bullying (it can happen anywhere!) he had questions fired at him about why we live in a flat (shock horror) why I don't drive, the list went on, until the child realised for himself that ds was normal! I think the OP needs to think very carefully and step back from the thoughts about allocation policies and money and make her choices based on facts.

bruffin Sun 17-Mar-13 13:38:19

My immediate reactions to this thread was if op was to say anything to the school she might not find there is place for her dd anymore.

quoteunquote Sun 17-Mar-13 13:52:04

If it is a good school they will help her adjust her behaviour,

OP, if you decide to jeopardise this opportunity for a child, you need to sit down and have a good hard look at your own behaviour, it is quite shameful.

noddyholder Sun 17-Mar-13 14:02:32

I've seen it all on here now

Kenlee Sun 17-Mar-13 14:06:25

This is ridiculous. I am sure the school that has awarded the bursary knows what they are doing. I sure the girl in question could be quite a handful. Yet does that mean she does not deserve a place at the school? I was a problem child and it was a very good teacher that took me under his wing that helped me to become a successful adult.

OP I will not judge you as other have but I feel that you should be made aware that if you do go to the head it will not affect the award in the slightest. Although by doing so may well jeopardize your DD chance of getting into said school.

I hope you will sit down and take stock of the actions you will take and the reaction that will occur if you take such actions.

MTSgroupie Sun 17-Mar-13 14:14:18

Happy - MN is full of threads/posts about bullying and racism at school. MNetters have talked about the distress of having a child threaten suicide because of this. In the Real World you read about children actually commiting suicide.

How can any reasonable person suggest that exposing a child to bullying is a character building thing because it prepares them for the real world?

lougle Sun 17-Mar-13 14:23:34

"Then I woul expect he school to make a judgement whether this child has a valuable contribution to make to the school life to justify the very substantial bursary she is getting."

Schools do not exist for children to demonstrate their ability to make a valuable contribution to school life. They exist to educate and inspire children for the good of society.

You should be grateful that someone, somewhere, cares about a girl who doesn't fit the mould.

I have a child with SN. I wouldn't be happy about her being called a spaz. I hope I'd be able to recognise whether she was doing it with genuine motive, or as a way of lashing out against a world in which she is struggling.

SanityClause Sun 17-Mar-13 14:47:23

MTS, DD2 has been bullied at school. She came to me for help, which was forthcoming. (We discussed how she could act, so that she was not a "natural victim"; she also asked me to contact her form tutor about it in one occasion, but not on others, when she thought she could handle the situation, herself.)

I think that if a child is not supported, or for some reason, believes they will not be supported, then it could lead to very tragic results.

FWIW, DD has learnt a lot from these incidents. She has learnt there are things she can do herself. She has learnt that it is okay to ask for help. She has learnt to empathise with the bullies, to understand (although, not to excuse) their behaviour.

These situations have been good for her.

But, if I had not assisted her, and the school had not done its part, she would've learnt that bullies make your life miserable, and you are at their mercy.

We have no reason to believe that the OP's DD's school would not act as my DD's school did.

difficultpickle Sun 17-Mar-13 14:53:14

It depends on the child. If you have one who tells you what happens at school then it is easy to offer advice and support. If you have one that tells you nothing and you have to work out what is wrong from the change in their behaviour then that is much much harder to deal with.

Labro Sun 17-Mar-13 15:03:16

I know its difficult, but this thread isn't about bullying and how children of different characters deal with it.
The OP is an adult making a set of judgements about a child she knows very little about on the basis that the child might be difficult for her child to deal with.
As many have said, the OP needs to take a step back, not blame 1 child for everything that may go wrong and look at different schools for her dd if she truly feels there is a problem (I have to say OP that your replies remind me of adults who go to a meeting for the sole purpose of jumping up and leaving loudly exclaiming 'I'm leaving now') so perhaps the reality is that you feel more than a bit miffed that the school have admitted a child you don't like but you were already rethinking future school options for your dd and are using this to justify moving her.

Bunbaker Sun 17-Mar-13 15:09:39

"The OP is an adult making a set of judgements about a child she knows very little about on the basis that the child might be difficult for her child to deal with"

I don't agree. The OP's child already has difficulties with this child at Brownies. Her daughter has even asked to be removed from Brownies because of her. She has also witnessed this child's bullying tactics at Brownies. There is no might about it.

The fact that she is on a bursary is irrelevant IMO and the OP shouldn't be concerned about that as it is none of her business. In fact the OP has just demonstrated why one of my friends has kept the fact that her daughter has won a scholarship to an independent school to a very few people. She is very aware that there is a lot of bitchiness about scholarships/bursaries.

Hamstersball Sun 17-Mar-13 15:20:37

The bursary in question is a means tested one and the income criteria is set very low so eliminates average income families. The process is passing an academic exam, interview and HTs reference. The girl in question is bright but not exceptional. I have been a parent helper at the brownie pack for the past 4 years and drop & pick up dd weekly, help at least twice a month and go on nearly all trips and camps so have spent a considerable amount of time with this girl and got to know her well. Her behaviour is appalling but when picked up on it Denys all involvement and turns on the charm to get herself out of trouble. i help out because all the other parent helpers now refuse to work with this girl since she is never punished for her behaviour. I do realise I am seeing this situation very personally as it will my dd and not your dcs who will be affected by this girl's behaviour at school. I have no problem with dcs getting bursaries and for the right child they can be life changing. What saddens me is there are so many other well behaved academic dcs out there who will never get the opportunities the school can offer because it has been given to a foul mouthed racist bully

ArtexMonkey Sun 17-Mar-13 15:23:51

Why are you still shipping your dd off to brownies every week with this 'foul mouthed racist bully' that is apparently making her life a misery? hmm Brownies isn't compulsory you know. Are you perhaps exaggerating a bit?

ArtexMonkey Sun 17-Mar-13 15:24:48

How will your dd be affected by her behaviour if you ask for them to be in different classes?

Hamstersball Sun 17-Mar-13 15:28:16

Schools do not exist for children to demonstrate their ability to make a valuable contribution to school life. They exist to educate and inspire children for the good of society.
Not if you are on a bursary or scholarship for independent schools. The whole point of scholarships and bursaries is to find dcs who make the school look good, to maintain their charitable status and get more fee paying bums on seats

ArtexMonkey Sun 17-Mar-13 15:29:47

That's the school's concern surely?

Hamstersball Sun 17-Mar-13 15:30:12

Dd has got to the point where she decided to not to continue before then she has wanted to go. Seeing this girl once a week for 2 hours is very different from seeing her 5 days a week at school.

ArtexMonkey Sun 17-Mar-13 15:31:13

And schools do not have different obligations to/expectations of their pupils depending on whether they are paying or not.

difficultpickle Sun 17-Mar-13 15:32:21

I'm surprised you have continued with Brownies if this child has such a negative effect on your dd. It also sounds as if you have little confidence in your dd's school and the award of a bursary to this girl may just be the tipping point. What year is your dd in and why do you think they will also end up in senior school together?

ArtexMonkey Sun 17-Mar-13 15:34:53

So she copes fine with this girl at brownies then? Her behaviour isn't bad enough to make her want to stop going?

There were people at my secondary I barely saw, some because they were in different classes, some because we had different friendship groups. They are not going to be in each other's pockets. She does not bully your dd. your thread title is not 'concerned because foul mouthed racist bully is going to same school as my dd', it is 'undeserved bursary'.

Time to have a loooooong look at yourself op.

difficultpickle Sun 17-Mar-13 15:35:02

If it is a scholarship then the school does have different expectations from non-scholars. Most schools hold up scholars as examples of how pupils should be so whilst all behaviour is important the behaviour of scholars is under a microscope. At ds's school everyone knows who have choral scholarships as they wear different colour ties to the rest of the pupils.

ArtexMonkey Sun 17-Mar-13 15:40:24

Well that sounds like a blast smile I'm sure if the child didn't meet the required standard of ability she wouldn't have passed the exam. I'm sure if she makes the school look bad they will exclude her. What's the problem here again?

TSSDNCOP Sun 17-Mar-13 15:43:09

What an utterly unpleasant individual you sound. Frankly, if my kid attended a school or Brownies at a place where you helped I'd be moving them sharpish.

Unpleasant traits can be educated out of a child. As an adult yours appear deeply ingrained.

Hamstersball Sun 17-Mar-13 15:43:26

I imagine being a foul mouthed racist bully would mean you did not deserve a bursary. The school literature states that bursaries are awarded for academic excellence and exemplary behaviour I would have thought you would have to fulfil both briefs to get such an award. From my substantial experience of this girl her behaviour is certainly not exemplary hence my post.

Floralnomad Sun 17-Mar-13 15:43:37

TBH I'm finding this thread increasingly less believable . If this child's behaviourist this bad ( exclusions etc) it will have been flagged up to her parents on several occasions ,who apparently do nothing about it ,yet are willing to have their personal finances scrutinised in order to get her into an independent school . Doesn't sound right to me somehow . The former sounds like parents who don't care , the latter parents who care a lot . Either way the OP is not going to see anyone's POV except her own so there's little point in this thread.

Haven't read whole thread but .... at the end of the day every child deserves an education. As someone else said this child was awarded bursary as passed exam and due to parents income, if it also depended on a possibly over positive reference from primary HT then I feel that is a matter for the schools to deal with between themselves.
I do rather think you sound over involved in this, or potentially will be if you speak out to your DD's school about it.
Also agree if you don't think it's a positive friendship from your DD's POV then perhaps just say that and see if they can be in different classes ?

MrsDeVere Sun 17-Mar-13 16:00:31

I really think you should go to the head.
Tell him/her everything you have said on this thread.
Exactly as you have written it on this thread.

Then report back.

Weissdorn Sun 17-Mar-13 16:02:43

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

MrsDeVere Sun 17-Mar-13 16:02:51

So when you were helping at Brownies did you slip in a quite academic assessment? How did you manage to do that without being noticed?

And why, as your child's life is being made a misery by this 'foul mouthed racist bully' do you take her to Brownies and leave her there every week?

Labro Sun 17-Mar-13 16:17:44

Bunbaker, just to clarify, the might was because the OP daughter has never been at school with the other child. Schools and Brownie packs are totally different things and a child who is badly behaved at one cannot be assumed to be badly behaved towards the OP daughter in a very different setting

LynetteScavo Sun 17-Mar-13 16:23:58

So you don't think your child's school is capable of teaching this little girl fighting is wrong, racist comments are wrong, lying is wrong,etc, and turning out a better person?

If they don't like the girl's behaviour when she is there, they can always withdraw the bursary.

Bunbaker Sun 17-Mar-13 16:32:06

Labro Sorry. I am a bit sensitive about bullying. I understood that the OP's daughter was already being bullied by the other girl. DD is in year 8 and I know how horrible girls of that age can be. I don't imagine the other girl will suddenly stop bullying the OP's daughter unless the school intervenes, as it sounds like the bully isn't currently being picked up on her behaviour.

Labro Sun 17-Mar-13 16:44:08

No problems bunbaker, the OP says that the bad behaviour isn't being dealt with at Brownies, volunteers don't have the same powers as schools and I've personally known children who don't get on very well in these sort of clubs be completely different in a school setting. The OP really shouldn't base attitudes towards a child in a school based on limited knowledge from outside that environment.

difficultpickle Sun 17-Mar-13 17:03:02

Maybe the child's poor behaviour is exactly why her parents want her to change school? It seems that her current school hasn't managed to do anything about it and maybe the new school believe they can?

Letticetheslug Sun 17-Mar-13 17:19:45

As a parent helper I was told dealing with behavioral issues is not part of my responsibilities and this should be left to the leaders.

and you still haven't got the message?

MrsDeVere Sun 17-Mar-13 17:24:11

So the child is not at the same school and only sees the OP's DD once a week at Brownies?


Please, Please OP. Take this evidence and present it to the head of the school. tell him how you have assessed the child's academic capabilities. Tell him your theories regarding the child's school lying to him, explain how you don't think his school is able to educate this girl and that she has manipulated him and the other adults on the board into accepting her.

Then please come back and tell us how it went.

happygardening Sun 17-Mar-13 17:26:11

MTS I work with children in both an educational setting and outside of school I am aware of the effects of bullying probably more than many. I in no way condone bullying or the bullies themselves. Obviously as parents and as a professional who works with children I would like all children's experiences to be positive but in the real world of school brownies scouts or just walking down the road this is not realistic. When our children are grown ups and hopefully shifting for themselves with jobs hobbies partners etc they will also meet people they like and people they don't they will meet people who are practiced bullies this is sadly life. I also know that it is often the most unlikely child that can in a moment of what can only be described as madness be expectionally unkind and cruel. So as I've already pointed out even if the OP moved her daughter and was heavily able to get every child there is no guarantee that every child is going to be Mary Poppins.
I don't want my children bullied and I don't want my children to be bullies equally I don't want any of the children I work with bullied or to be that bully but I accept that through their school career it is inevitable that they or their friends will come into contact with bullies and that I hope that from this awful experience something positive comes out of it in that they will learn how best to manage it.
Interestingly two friends have recently made formal complaints of long term bullying at work one in the private sector one in the state sector in both cases unlike schools the employer has been slow to react and left the person being bullied feeling that somehow it was there fault. All the schools I work with or have experience of through my DC's take bullying very seriously and especially in the independent boarding sector bullies are punished very seriously.

ZZZenAgain Sun 17-Mar-13 17:26:46

she has said a few times that she stopped taking her dd to brownies because of this other girl's behaviour.

Labro Sun 17-Mar-13 17:33:59

ZZZ - that being so, OP should raise a written complaint with the District Commissioner as that is how complaints within brownies are dealt with. It does not follow that because a child has difficulties with behaviour at brownies that this will also happen at school. OP has no experience of dealing with the child in a school setting and has no knowledge of the childs needs, academic or otherwise.

bruffin Sun 17-Mar-13 17:44:55

She didn't say that . She said that her didn't want to go but she never said they stopped going and was there on Friday.

Also how she knows the girls academic record i have no idea. If her df was in the same class and said the other girl is not on top table then maybe she might have an incling, but not even in the same school she would have no idea.
Even in the same school she could very well be wrong.

Coconutty Sun 17-Mar-13 17:48:20

I think you should get a petition signed by as many people as you can strong arm into signing it, and then march into the heads office tomorrow morning, throw it down on the desk and see what happens next

Please come back and tell us.

Ronaldo Sun 17-Mar-13 17:58:28

Ye Gods , so many posters with so many views.

The one person I am seriously beginning to feel sorry for in all of this is the poor DC ( daughter of the Op) who is clearly going to have to deal with whatever fall out there is - be it, being in the class with a bully, having to move schools , being moved class in an existing school or made to feel a leper because her DP complains.

Its not good any way.

I did type a long post. but it's pointless.

OP you're in the wrong. You sound vile and narrow minded and judgemental and all those things you think that little girl is.

She's 10. You're not. She has time to change. You are probably too set in your ways, which is a shame.

duchesse Sun 17-Mar-13 18:05:07

Hamster did you apply for a scholarship for your DD? I'm just wondering idly now. You sound terribly over-invested in this other child's life, so I'm wondering if there's another deeper reason.

Other than that I refuse to believe that it's actually possible to make any child's life "a misery" in 1.5 hours per week. Surely your DD would actually refuse to go if that were the case?

'Take this evidence and present it to the head of the school. tell him how you have assessed the child's academic capabilities. Tell him your theories regarding the child's school lying to him, explain how you don't think his school is able to educate this girl and that she has manipulated him and the other adults on the board into accepting her'

I'll buy a ticket to that!

duchesse Sun 17-Mar-13 18:07:21

That made me grin as well.

<joins queue with northern and duchesse>

Why do you send your child to a school you hold in such low regard?

You seem to think they will simply let this child mess about and be rude and disruptive. I would not send my child to a school with such low levels of discipline.

lougle Sun 17-Mar-13 18:20:57

"The girl in question is bright but not exceptional."

On what basis??

This must be really eating you up. Poor you.

If the school were to sell us all tickets they could net enough to establish another bursary for the undeserving poor. Could be named after the OP! grin

Ronaldo Sun 17-Mar-13 18:25:50

'Take this evidence and present it to the head of the school. tell him how you have assessed the child's academic capabilities. Tell him your theories regarding the child's school lying to him, explain how you don't think his school is able to educate this girl and that she has manipulated him and the other adults on the board into accepting her'

All that really describes is what happens whenever there is a bully around.

In my experience bullies need to be steppedon and kept stepped on but it doesnt happen because
a) bullies seem to have an incapacity to learn by consequence.
b) institutions seem to have an inability to act
c) everyone always wantsto give a bully a second chance ( and this leads the bully to trealise they can get away with it)
d) iothers find coping strategies that enable them not to getpicked on
d) victims always have to move.

I have worked in placeswhere staff turnover in deptsis high because of one manager who bullies. I have seen silly victims whop believe in social justice take out ET's ( and even win them) only to find they are now unemployable. I have seen endless misery. I have seen management have complaints against bullies numerous times yet still ignore them. In schools I have even known whole classes of students complain about a bully teacher ( who wasbullying kids and other staff) abd still nothing was doneexcept to gagthe satff and make them leave and placate the kids by moving the teacher from them and then making the kids lives hell so they too moved!

If a lesson can be learned young ( as happygardening would have you believe) it has to be that if you come against a bully, you need to get as far away as you can as fast as you can.

Thats the only thing that works.

To be serious for a moment though - OP do you realise that you are talking about a child? Do you appreciate that if you got your way you could be seriously disrupting this child's future? I'm with Akaemma - if you came near one of my children with your harmful gossip, my wrath would descend upon you from a great height and armed and dangerous solicitors would be called upon if required.

Just remember this is a child. some parent's adored child and you need to really, really mind your own business. You're so far past 'appropriate' it's just a speck in the distance. Clearly you've transmitted your nasty views to your own unfortunate child too. I'd try and fix that if I were you.

Ronaldo Sun 17-Mar-13 18:27:57

Lots of bullies on this site too I am afraid. This thread is turning into a mobbing ( and mocking) of the OP. People who come here should at least be able to expect some support.

Ronaldo Sun 17-Mar-13 18:31:05

Just remember this is a child
Thats another problem - bullying starts young and the ineffectual and bleeding heart approach of " just a child" enables them to run amock.

But this isnt about one child. This is about two children. The OP has a child too. That child is just a child too and needs consideration and protection.

Ronaldo - support does not require agreement and disagreement isn't bullying. I actually think it's very supportive to point out to the OP that she's in danger of seriously harming herself and others. If you (and she) just want a soothing pat on the metaphorical arm though then I suggest you try other sites.

Sometimes, the very best and most useful support comes from those who are prepared to tell you when you're being a tit.

Just saying.

seeker Sun 17-Mar-13 18:36:53

And if the OP genuinely thinks the school concerned won't be able to protect her dd from this devil child, then she should be reconsidering sending her there.

Chubfuddler Sun 17-Mar-13 18:39:06

If the school has given a scholarship/bursary to a child who is bright but not exceptional, a liar, a bully, a racist and foul mouthed then I'm amazed you want your child to go there op.

Perhaps, just perhaps, the school sees something worthwhile in her. I do hope so, this is a ten year old child after all. You seem to have list sight of that somewhere along the way.

Chubfuddler Sun 17-Mar-13 18:40:11

X posted with seeker.

SEE OP? you're so wrong you've got me and seeker in agreement. On a private school thread <mops brow>

Labro Sun 17-Mar-13 18:40:56

Ronaldo, I agree that the other child needs to be considered too. However, as these 2 children have never attended school together, then the OP has no factual basis that either child is a problem to the other in a school setting. The OP is objecting to something that hasn't happened yet as the 2 children have never been in the same school. So, the probability of any child attending her dd school in the future causing behaviour problems is exactly the same, because they too are completely unknown in how they will interact in a school environment.

seeker Sun 17-Mar-13 18:42:54


SanityClause Sun 17-Mar-13 19:09:56

Maybe it's this.

The scholarship is given on the basis of academic excellence and exemplary behaviour. The scholarship will be withdrawn on the basis that the child's behaviour does not meet the school's standard. The school is aware that the child has behavioural problems and intends to withdraw the scholarship at any breach, and save the money.

Surely not!

exoticfruits Sun 17-Mar-13 19:16:24

I had to go back to read OP as we have strayed so far from it. Basically the school have offered a bursary, presumably with a lot of competition, and OP thinks that have made wrong choice and that she should point it out.
Maybe she should just do it and then report back to us. I would place money on it not going very well. grin

teacherwith2kids Sun 17-Mar-13 19:19:29

OP, forget the bursary for the moment.

Is this a child whose behaviour is so bad, so corrupting, so disruptive that you do not wish your child to be in contact with her?

In which case, you have 2 options:

1. To discuss your concerns with the school and ask for your child to be in a separate class and the situation actively monitored.

2. To remove your child from the school.

The bursary is neither here nor there, and should be none of your concern. If you consider your child to be in danger from this child, morally or emotionally or educationally, then that concern should be immaterial of the bursary, and it is on the basis of actual threat of harm that there would be any excuse to contact the school, and only then if your view is that the harm is certain to arise immediately.

If the bursary plays any part in your thinking, then your thinking is wrong.

exoticfruits Sun 17-Mar-13 19:28:31

Maybe if OP feels the need to inform the school they will put those facts too her teacherwith2kids, at the same time as asking her not to interfere with their job. ( if they wanted parental input then no doubt they would have had a parent on the selection panel)

exoticfruits Sun 17-Mar-13 19:29:22

Sorry iPad is getting carried away again 'to' not 'too'.

teacherwith2kids Sun 17-Mar-13 19:46:50

And OP, just so that the record is complete - did you apply for a bursary for your DD? Were you unsuccessful, or successful? I ask because I can quite see how this might affect your judgement, however hard you tried not to let it. Understandable does not mean excusable, of coursee.

LIZS Sun 17-Mar-13 19:58:16

Sorry but you don't get to pick and choose your dc's peers. Most schools re-evaluate bursaries annually in which case she may get "found out" or she may settle down fine. Even if she had a full fee place would you feel it your right to question her place or does the fact that she has been awarded a bursary somehow entitle you to feel superior? You have no way of knowing whether other new pupils may also be an issue , so would you seek to rout them too if so . hmm

teacherwith2kids Sun 17-Mar-13 20:11:09

Lizs, perhaps the point is that the OP thought that she DID get to pick her DD's peers through being at a fee-paying school. Perhaps she thought that this child wouldn't be able to attend because of a lower income (and was therefore pleased that 'at least my little darling doesn't have to associate with children like THAT'). And all of these illusions have come crashing down due to the award of a bursary..... a useful lesson, perhaps.

wheresthebeach Sun 17-Mar-13 20:16:54

Parents can't march into school and tell the administration which children they can accept and which children they should refuse.

Can you imagine if everyone with an axe to grind went to school with 'I don't want ABC in this school!'


Chaos - it would be utter chaos.

If you're right then you should trust the school to deal effectively with any future bullying. If they don't then move your child as there are bullies everywhere and you need to be at a school that takes actions to deal with issues.

difficultpickle Sun 17-Mar-13 20:17:37

As I pointed out the OP earlier money doesn't make manners. I don't get the association between lower income and lack of manners. Ime often the reverse is true.

Floggingmolly Sun 17-Mar-13 20:27:57

If you raise this as an issue with the school they're going to think you're a bitter, mean minded loon. Do you want your daughter possibly tarred with the same brush?

MrsDeVere Sun 17-Mar-13 20:49:12

This child might be a bully but I have yet to see real evidence. The OP is making an awful lot of claims with not much to back them up.

She is claiming she knows how much the bursary is
She is claiming she knows the academic ability of the child
She is claiming she knows how she will behave in a school setting
She is claiming that the child's school has lied
She is claiming that the child charmed her way through the interview despite being a foul mouth racist. (I am thinking using her 'native cunning' perhaps hmm)

So why, really and truly, should anyone be expected to take her ever increasingly lurid accounts of this child's horrendous behaviour as gospel?


KatieMiddleton Sun 17-Mar-13 21:04:39

Thread still going then. Anyone other than op seriously suggesting telling tales to school? No?

Quelle surprise wink

MrsDeVere Sun 17-Mar-13 21:06:07

I am deadly serious!
I would love to see this thread part II, The Aftermath.


difficultpickle Sun 17-Mar-13 21:09:59

I just think the OP is one of those that I've encounted at private school who thinks that because they pay for their dc's education they get a choice in how the school is run. In reality you get no greater say than if you are at state school and the outcome is the same. If you don't like the way a school is run you vote with your feet. The only difference is having to give a term's notice or pay fees in lieu.

Viviennemary Sun 17-Mar-13 21:11:12

I can see why somebody would be annoyed in these circumstances. But most people would not write to the school. But on the other hand I suppose the OP could write a letter to the school saying she is concerned about this child and give examples and say she does not want her DD in any class or any activity that child is involved. in. I don't think I would do this myself though I might be tempted.

Labro Sun 17-Mar-13 21:17:31

pretty much everybody has said that the OP may have a valid reason to flag up with the school that the child has a potential personality clash with her dd, but that is all, there is no evidence to support anything else (plus bear in mind that the other child isn't due at the school until September!)

reneaa2 Sun 17-Mar-13 21:57:28

Op you should make an appointment to ask about the 2 girls being in different classes (where possible as streamed classes are unavoidable).
Do this as soon as possible before other parents start to do the same. Just say they don't get on, but don't get personal or go into details as I think it would only reflect badly on you..

Once that is confirmed then take a step back and dont engage in anymore discussions about the girl, if anyone wants to discuss her just politely end te conversation.

I think it would be in dd best interests to completely distance yourself from the girl and ignore her presence (politely) in the school. Play it down for you dd s sake, unless if course her behaviour/bullying escalates and directly effects your dd.

corlan Sun 17-Mar-13 23:25:17

Absolutely bonkers!

I love the idea that independent schools are handing out bursaries to not very bright, racist bullies. I know several of them at my local state secondary and I'd be thrilled if an independent gave them a bursary and took them off our hands.

exoticfruits Mon 18-Mar-13 07:59:33

I'm not at all sure why OP wants her DC in the school if she thinks that the Head is so dim that she needs to put him 'right'.

exoticfruits Mon 18-Mar-13 08:00:42

Or maybe put 'her' right.

Needmoresleep Mon 18-Mar-13 09:19:29

A short note asking that, if possible, the two girls are kept separate is enough. Schools are used to it. You might also suggest a girl that you would like your daughter to be with so the note stays positive.

You have really been given the full Mumsnet treatment which I am not sure is strictly necessary. You could be right, and the girl is a nightmare. However beyond asking that your daughter is kept separate and being alert to future problems, there is not much you can do.

If there is a genuine problem, others will be doing the same. If the school gets several such letters they will know there is an issue they will need to manage. If you make too much of a fuss the school will perceive it as a problem between your daughter and this girl. You don't want this.

If they are kept separate there should not be a problem. Your daughter is forewarned and will know to steer a wide berth. If there are problems it is more likely to be with girls who are not aware of past behaviours. Giving the school a gentle indication that this has happened before will enable them to respond quickly, should, and this is a conditional, should things happen again.

Girls change a lot between the ages of 10 and 13. They settle down, find their own groups and start leaving others alone. They can also over-dramatise day to day conflicts. I wont be the only mother to have a DD who suddenly proclaims that the girl she has done nothing but moan about, is now her new BFF. (Luckily she has an older brother who rolls his eyes, meaning there is no need for us to say anything.) All you want, and all you can ask for, is distance.

If things are then a problem you can escalate. But keep your powder dry till then. And rely on the fact that if you have a problem others probably do as well, so no need to rush to the fore.

On bursaries I would say in your defence that at primary level kids boast to each other, so we tended to know who had bursaries at DCs prep. At secondary it is completely different. DD knows that one of her closest friends is on a 100% bursary, and DS might guess, but would be too disinterested to ask, that a couple of his close friends receive financial support. Beyond that we have no idea.

There were also a couple of rather tactless/insecure mothers who felt the need to tell everyone what reduction in fees their child would be getting at senior school. Given others are making sacrifices to afford fees, or would dearly love to send their children to an indie but cannot afford to, this can really grate, and can inevitably cause people to wonder why one child is more deserving than another. Truth is you are not privy to all the facts, and even if the school has made a wrong decision, there is not much you can do about it.

Tasmania Mon 18-Mar-13 16:34:23

I, too, think that the OP has been treated rather unfairly. I would be rather annoyed if someone who does not match the "exemplary behaviour" criteria gets a bursary. Of course, it might well be the case that this girl has serious problems at home, and is thus acting out in public. It might well be that the girl will grow up to be a responsible adult rather than remain the annoyance she is now.

But always saying she's just a child is a cop-out, IMHO. The Bulger murderers were essentially also just children.

The girl's two-faced behaviour would worry me slightly - that is often a symptom of abuse OR sociopathic tendencies. It has been said that sociopaths can easily turn on the charm when needed... which is how they get through life easily. Read the book The Sociopath Next Door.

Tasmania Mon 18-Mar-13 16:38:57

P.S.: One of the other known things about sociopaths is that more often than not, they are remarkably intelligent... which often is what makes them dangerous.

SoupDreggon Mon 18-Mar-13 16:47:28

Oh FFS hmm

MrsDeVere Mon 18-Mar-13 16:49:07

You have diagnosed a child as a sociopath based on her alleged behaviour at Brownies?

That is fucking hilarious.

KatieMiddleton Mon 18-Mar-13 16:52:16

It's official. I've seen everything now.

Tasmania, are you having a giraffe or what?!

"alleged behaviour at Brownies"

That is funny MrsDeV grin

TheRealFellatio Mon 18-Mar-13 16:56:17

Look, schools offer bursaries and scholarships to academically able students a) because they have to, to keep their charitable status, and b) to encourage very bright children into the school in order to keep their results high.

I'm sure they don't really care whether you think she is a nice girl or not, at this stage. Let them find out in their own time.

seeker Mon 18-Mar-13 16:57:26

"I love the idea that independent schools are handing out bursaries to not very bright, racist bullies. I know several of them at my local state secondary and I'd be thrilled if an independent gave them a bursary and took them off our hands."

Oh, I'm sure they've got one or two of their own...........

TheRealFellatio Mon 18-Mar-13 16:59:22

To be fair, I diagnosed an 11 year old to be a sociopath/psychopath aged 11. It was just my gut feeling.

Now he is 17 and he has murdered someone. Sometimes you just know.

KatieMiddleton Mon 18-Mar-13 16:59:47

I am tempted to make a diagnosis of over active imagination.

TheRealFellatio Mon 18-Mar-13 16:59:57

Not that I am saying that this Brownie is a murderer. grin

KatieMiddleton Mon 18-Mar-13 17:00:20


MrsDeVere Mon 18-Mar-13 17:07:48

Yeah but TRF you actually knew that person.

This is taking diagnosis by internet to new levels.

Mind you, a liking for military uniforms and strange mushrooms could indicate something serious....

Floralnomad Mon 18-Mar-13 17:11:47

TBH this child would probably be better off at another school as by the time the OP spouts her venom at the school gate she will have little hope of making friends and getting on well .

TheRealFellatio Mon 18-Mar-13 17:13:56

Oh sorry MrsD - I didn't read the thread properly - I thought it was the OP making the diagnosis.

MrsDeVere Mon 18-Mar-13 17:20:54

Well the op has only seen her at Brownies...

Tasmania Mon 18-Mar-13 17:35:27

Oh FFS, I was not making a diagnosis. I said that it COULD be the case that the kid is normal (but a spoilt little brat who never gets told off at home as the OP indicated). BUT there's also a chance the kid is not.

As everyone says, none of us know the kid in question... and yet, everyone on this forum - over the internet, may I add, MrsDevere - "diagnoses" this kid to be "normal", and the OP mean-spirited.

I was merely pointing out that there are kids out there that ARE freakin' scary - who do not have the ability to feel empathy, guilt, regret... and love. Yes, it is difficult to imagine that, because it goes against our protective nature as mothers. But sadly, they do exist.

Obviously, for some, ignorance is bliss.

Floralnomad Mon 18-Mar-13 17:44:21

I don't think we have all diagnosed this child to be normal , what we have said ( on the whole ) is that the OP has made this assessment by being a helper at Brownies and on gossip and hearsay from other parents and children that she knows at the child's current school . The OP is an adult , the child is a child , and who the school give a bursary to is not her business . As lots of people have said she can ask for her child to be in a different class , and hopefully keep her opinions to herself until she sees how the child behaves when she starts at the school . According to the OP ,she is the only person not taken in by this girls charm , I doubt that .

LIZS Mon 18-Mar-13 17:59:28

Given that all we have to go on is the op and her 3rd hand hearsay most are simply giving a 10/11 year old child the benefit of the doubt. Had Brownies been so bad wouldn't you have moved pack ?

Tasmania Mon 18-Mar-13 18:18:29

I am guessing that - given the OPs involvement with the Brownies - she is emotionally invested in the pack. Hence, the reluctance to move. It is very unfair that it is often the victim that has to moverrather than the perpetrator... that's how bullies often excuse their behaviour - because the whole universe seemingly revolves around them to accommodate them.

Although - note to OP - if the kid is really that bad, rest assured, your dd WILL be fine moving to another school/Brownie pack. People often assume moving kids about is bad for them, when in reality, it's the parents who find it more difficult to cope.

MrsDeVere Mon 18-Mar-13 18:57:46

You can't diagnose 'normal'

Of course the kid could be a sociopath, she could win the Nobel Peace Prize in 2025 based on the information in the OP

She could have shingles, swim the channel, be fluent in An obscure East Indian dialect.

She could be a perfectly ordinary child and the op motivated by snobbery and envy,

For all we know

Which is nothing

Which is only slightly more than the op knows

MrsDeVere Mon 18-Mar-13 19:00:53

Having spent the last ten years immersed in attachment theory, child development and related subjects
I wouldn't consider myself ignorant or indeed blissful.

Nor would I make assumptions about a child based on the non information in that op!

seeker Mon 18-Mar-13 19:04:16

This could be the meanest thing I have eve posted on mumsnet. But I think it's all about the bursary. I bet if the other girls's parents were paying as much as the OP was, she wouldn't be anything like so bothered.

Coconutty Mon 18-Mar-13 19:09:31

I agree with that Seeker

I also think its a bloody disgrace to compare this girl to the killers of Jamie Bulger. You can FFS all you like tas but that is really, really off.

And unfortunately I'm not blissful or ignorant, thanks to my job.

DizzyHoneyBee Mon 18-Mar-13 19:16:09

YABU. If you don't want your daughter in contact with the other child then ask for her to be in a different class.

MrsCampbellBlack Mon 18-Mar-13 19:16:49

I also agree Seeker.

Bursaries and the awarding of them brings out the worst in some people. Also in most schools its a very rigorous process before they're awarded so this girl must be very very clever to have got through it all despite her poor behaviour/racism etc showing wink

exoticfruits Mon 18-Mar-13 19:17:17

One of the reasons that I would suggest that she didn't contact the school about it is because it will look like envy and sour grapes!

Tasmania Mon 18-Mar-13 19:17:34

But seeker - that's the thing though. Once you apply for scholarship/bursary, you HAVE to deserve it. Basically, there should be a much higher criteria for such kids as they are meant to be the "benchmark" for all the fee-paying kids... and so much more. Basically... they are meant to be role models. That's the kind of kid that normally gets scholarships/bursaries. I am not pessimistic enough to think none of suck kids are left in this world, so I am scratching my head as to why the OP's school could not find anyone better, should this kid really be so bad.

Unless someone at that school is planning to test a machine that can brainwash kids...

ArtexMonkey Mon 18-Mar-13 19:18:02

I agree with that too seeker. After all they haven't gone crying to brown owl demanding she get thrown out of brownies for breaking the brownie guide promise, despite apparently years and years of unremittingly awful behaviour.

exoticfruits Mon 18-Mar-13 19:19:30

I also wonder how you put it, diplomatically, that the school's selection process is useless!

Coconutty Mon 18-Mar-13 19:20:17

But the only person who thinks this child is 'so bad' is the OP, her current headteacher, new head, other people on the bursary committee, brownie leaders etc all don't seem to think this.

Floggingmolly Mon 18-Mar-13 19:22:32

Do you "have to deserve it"? hmm. I thought they were awarded on academic performance; didn't realise personality or being a good role model for the fee paying pupils came into it?
(Why would it?)

seeker Mon 18-Mar-13 19:26:23

Wow- kids on bursaries have to be role models for the fee paying kids? Why- to justify their presence in the school? "I may be poor, but I am deserving, worthy poor"? Oh, and what about all this "nobody knows who the kids on bursaries are- the's no stigma"? As I said. Wow. Just wow.

KatieMiddleton Mon 18-Mar-13 19:27:16

I've reported that post suggesting this child that none of us know well enough to judge, including the OP, has serious psychological issues because it is just revolting.

There is enough identifiable information on this thread to strongly suspect or know if it was your child and I would hate to think this girl's parent might read it.

Regardless of anyone's imaginings this is somebody's little girl.

lougle Mon 18-Mar-13 19:29:23

"For all we know

Which is nothing

Which is only slightly more than the op knows"

That made me chuckle.

teacherwith2kids Mon 18-Mar-13 19:29:48


Scholarship kids - of whom I was one, in the past - are expected to 'set the standard' academically. There was never any expectation that behaviourally I should be a paragon, though I have to say I was not exactly a teenage rebel (being a spotty swotty type doesn't often go hand in hand with rebellion).

Modern bursaries in many schools are now simply awarded to those who meet the school's entrance standards, with the level of the bursary being set according to parental income. So there is no expectatoion that either academic performance or behaviour should be 'above the norm' - just level with the norm coupled with parents with lower incomes.

I realise that busaries are rationed - and that there are two ways of doing that, by parental income or by child's academic merit. If the latter, then there is some element of the old-fashioned acaemic scholarship, with an expectation of academic excellence. However I have never seen one where the aim was to bring in children who would be behavioural role models - in fact, in some cases the reverse, as the bursaries are designed to draw form a wider pool than the 'naice MC kids' who form the fee-paying intake (though tbh, having moved jobs from a primary with a very challenging intake to one with a very MC intake, I know where the better in-school behavious and manners werre ... and it's not in the MC school). OIf course there is an expectation that a child with a bursary will conform to the behavioural expectations and norms of the school, but expected to be 'a beacon of virtue'? perhaps not.

teacherwith2kids Mon 18-Mar-13 19:32:32

X posted with seeker, and agree with her comments - why should a chil with a bursary have to have higher behavioural standards that his / her fee-paying colleagues?

What you are saying, effectively, is:
'If your family is poorer than the norm for this shool, then you have to behave REALLY well to be considered worthy of a place here. Only the rich kids are allowed to misbehave.'

Tasmania Mon 18-Mar-13 19:32:52

Coconutty - You can use that extreme because it is the most direct way of showing people that kids CAN be very horrible whether you like it or not. Too many times, people use the he/she "just being a kid" line as an excuse for bad behavior - there are obviously, less direct/visible examples, but it's often when you mention that one case where the penny finally drops.

In the OP's case, I do agree all she should do is ask the school to keep her child separate due to prior history. I may even go as far as say that the prior history involves bullying on the part of that child.

I would NOT suggest that OP should mention the bursary... at all. Just along the lines of "I was made aware that xxx will join the school, and would like to ask you to keep my dd away from her due to prior history between them."

School staff can work out for themselves what to do.

Tasmania Mon 18-Mar-13 19:36:35

teacherwith2kids - if you read the OPs comments, she did said that "exemplary behavior" is meant to be part of the criteria of being awarded a bursary at that school...

teacherwith2kids Mon 18-Mar-13 19:40:06

I presume that is just there so that if a child has serious behavioural issues, the school can in future withdraw the bursary.

I mean, how on earth can the school assess it on entry with any accuracy, transparency or fairness? 'I will line you all up from most deserving to least descrving poor, based on...um, not quite sure, how on earth do we measure behaviour in a bunch of children that we have never seen before?'

ThePathanKhansAmnesiac Mon 18-Mar-13 19:43:30

I blame Brown Owl myself.

Shaded Mon 18-Mar-13 19:44:40

This is upsetting on so many levels - the child may or may not have issues as alleged by OP. However, what is so upsetting is that OP's through her words and actions is determined to make this child's existence in her DD's school miserable.

OP considering going to the Head is the least of what she has done - the girl will be a new student in a school where other girls have been together for a while, OP would have informed other mothers about this nightmare child joining the school, girls in her class would be asked to avoid her and if this girl even has an iota of behavioural issues, this would only make it worse.

I want OP to go to the Head with her concerns so the school would at least be aware of what this child will be dealing with.

OP may think that she is acting as a concerned parent but it is important that we as parents do not turn into bullies ourselves.

Tasmania Mon 18-Mar-13 19:51:31

Ehm... seeker - I am afraid you're right... that is how it's normally being justified. This is many years ago now, but my mother was a scholarship kid, and if she ever dropped below the required grade average or showed signs of bad behavior, it was THE END (in her case, it would seriously have been the end of her schooling).

And why shouldn't you expect better behavior??? Politically correct UK (or Mumsnet) seems to be the only place where people think someone with less income is more deserving REGARDLESS of their behavior. I, for one, would have opted for the less intelligent but well-behaved candidate rather than the intelligent but down-right obnoxious. But to be honest, I can't believe there wasn't a child around with the same level of intelligence, but better behavior... unless the child really is not that bad. So who knows???

Movingtimes Mon 18-Mar-13 19:56:13

Everybody blames Brown Owl, Pathan.
<<resigned sigh>>

seeker Mon 18-Mar-13 20:31:28

"And why shouldn't you expect better behavior??? Politically correct UK (or Mumsnet) seems to be the only place where people think someone with less income is more deserving REGARDLESS of their behavior"

I don't think anyone thinks that. But I don't think that you should have to be better behaved because you're poor! That is just outrageous.

scaevola Mon 18-Mar-13 20:34:38

Can I remind posters that OP said this award, called a bursary by this school, is actually what would normally be termed a scholarship - it's based on academic performance and is not means tested.

Floralnomad Mon 18-Mar-13 20:39:26

No she said in her 15:20 post yesterday that it is means tested and that its set very low so rules out average income families , which I assume means you have to be low income to qualify.

bruffin Mon 18-Mar-13 20:39:28

No op said that it was means tested which was very low to eliminate average income families.

bruffin Mon 18-Mar-13 20:40:17

x posted

teacherwith2kids Mon 18-Mar-13 20:59:00

Tasmania, the point I am making is that a child with a bursary should have the same behaviour expectations placed upon them as a normal fee-paying child.

Obviously, if they fall well below the expected standard - behaviour that would have a fee-paying child at risk of expulsion / exclusion / 'asked to leave' - then a bursary-holder should also be asked to leave.

However, saying that a bursary-holder should have their place withdrawn (because that will be the normal effect of a withdrawn bursary) because their behaviour is not better than a fee-paying child's is outrageous - it is discrimination on the grounds of being poorer than average within the school.....

scaevola Mon 18-Mar-13 21:01:36

So OP is saying two different things about the nature of the award during the course of the thread.


Mutteroo Tue 19-Mar-13 01:38:58

Where's the OP gone?

Please come back, this thread is hysterical!

nooka Tue 19-Mar-13 02:38:56

All the scholarship children at my school were required to wear different clothes. I don't recall them being any nicer than anyone else. Seems an odd criteria to me, surely the school is subsidizing them in order to increase the grade average / increase the numbers going to Oxbridge etc. Important criteria to many parents and much advertised in the school brochure.

Bunbaker Tue 19-Mar-13 06:53:55

"All the scholarship children at my school were required to wear different clothes."

That's awful. A very poor lesson to others on how to stigmatise others.

scaevola Tue 19-Mar-13 06:57:58

If they were scholarship pupils (ie the very brightest) they it's not stigmatisation, and more than a prefects tie would be.

If they were bursary pupils, then it would be.

And if it was a school such as this, that in the first day of the thread made its sole financial award for academic ability (ie scholarship despite name) but later became means tested, presumably the children have mixed dress?

DizzyHoneyBee Tue 19-Mar-13 07:24:05

At the end of the day, the child that the OP is talking about deserves to be given a chance and deserves not to be spoken about on a public forum.

Those of you who have been saying things that are negative about the child (who you almost certainly do not know), how would you feel if it was your child?

All children deserve the chance to achieve as much as they can achieve, including this one.

anotherangrybird Tue 19-Mar-13 09:43:14

It sounds as if what this girl has been offered is a "means tested scholarship". That is offered based on a combination of academic merit and financial need.

My DS is starting at a school in September with exactly the same offer. He has been told this is a great honour and that during his time at school he will be expected to perform and behave in an exemplary manner. Frankly, I think this is fair. The money DOES NOT come from fees, it comes from fundraising. My DS worked very hard to achieve this and wholly deserves it. I still meet a few parents at pickup time, miserable immature people like the OP, who stare at us wondering "why them and not us?", drowning in their own green juice.

OP, if one of them ever dared to go to the school to question the decision, they would be wise to leave the country asap. angry angry

MTSgroupie Tue 19-Mar-13 11:30:06

Dizzy - Forums like Relationships and AIBU would die overnight if we stopped discussing people that we don't know smile

jeee Tue 19-Mar-13 12:02:34

If the OP is doing as much with the Brownies as her OP suggests, she presumably had an enhanced CRB check. When this is done (as I know many of you are only too aware) you have to read a load of bumpf about YOUR behaviour - especially about confidentiality. The OP is clearly only too ready to gossip about this child.

Mutteroo Wed 20-Mar-13 10:05:33

What a shame. No sign of the OP. Either if she's genuine, she has got the message that no one agrees with her or it was just one of those silly wind up threads which certainly wound some up!

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