Should teachers have to take tougher tests before they qualify?

(544 Posts)
Solopower1 Fri 26-Oct-12 11:53:53
Solopower1 Fri 26-Oct-12 12:00:04

The arguments for appear to be to raise the standards and status of the profession.

The arguments against:

'Association of Teachers and Lecturers past president Julia Neal said: "If you're going to raise standards it's not just about recruiting teachers in the first place, it is actually keeping them and retaining them.

"I do think that sometimes there's a message going out which is really just undermining the profession. Are we saying that teachers at the moment aren't good enough because they haven't passed these tests?'

'Christine Blower, general secretary of the National Union of Teachers, said ... "It is ... surprising that Michael Gove is showing such interest in the entry requirements for teacher training courses, while at the same time advocating that schools should be free to employ unqualified teachers.

"The real issue is the training and support that teachers are given once they have entered into teaching training." '

Labour's alternatives:

'Shadow schools minister Kevin Brennan said Labour supported efforts to raise the quality and status of teachers, but that other measures were needed.

"We need more high flying applicants, and Labour has set out plans through our New Deal for Teachers to expand schemes like Teach First, improve training and on the job development and incentivise bright graduates to teach in less well off communities ..." '

Katisha Fri 26-Oct-12 12:14:25

Unqualified teachers are not the same thing as teachers who are weak in maths and literacy. Two different problems. Both need addressing.

But having done a PGCE myself I don't think the fact that some schools appoint people who then train on the job is necessarily a bad thing, as long as they are strong in their subject and strong in their motivation.

You don't learn all that much about the nitty gritty of teaching during the course, IME. You get that actually doing it.

LaVolcan Fri 26-Oct-12 12:48:05

When Gove talks about doing maths without a calculator I think he is being a fool. No serious science student can operate without one - unless he wants people to go back to using books of log tables, which included sines, cosines and tangents as well.

rabbitstew Fri 26-Oct-12 12:49:06

I would hope most primary level maths could be done without a calculator.

Sillybillypoopoomummy Fri 26-Oct-12 12:51:18

How can someone who only has a C at GCSE (the last time I looked that was the grade needed for teacher training in the core subjects so could have changed) teach someone to get an A?? Teaching needs to be something that attracts the brightest of people, so I agree about the need to keep them there, but they have to be brightest to start with.

am sure someone is going to yell at me for that

BrittaPerry Fri 26-Oct-12 12:51:47

Teachers seem to be such a lottery. The vast majority that I meet are dedicated and skilled, but I also know a couple of qualified teachers who don't know basic things and don't even know how to look them up.

When my sister graduated, some of her friends had to go to a graduation ceremony later in the year as they were still retaking the basic skills tests, sometimes for the third or fourth time. That alarms me.

Ronaldo Fri 26-Oct-12 12:52:08

"We need more high flying applicants, and Labour has set out plans through our New Deal for Teachers to expand schemes like Teach First, improve training and on the job development and incentivise bright graduates to teach in less well off communities ..."

This is the real weakness of the whole scheme. It assumes " high flyers
a) want to teach
b) make good teachers
c) will stick it rather than using it as a stop gap until they can do a much more highly prized job.

It also assumes that there is a need for standards to be raised.

You wont get the best teachers in schools unless you start adderessing the real problems in classrooms Good teachers want to teach. Right now that is the last thing most of them can do - so they leave in droves or they move to the private sector or most often they dont come into teaching at all knowing there are jobs out there paying more and which are far more pleasant to do.

Until the hygeine factors of the job are addressed you wont attract the best candidates and all those intitives they do have in place ( including the new one) will probably turn most of them off IMHO.

Solopower1 Fri 26-Oct-12 12:53:19

If you have a C in Maths, how does that stop you from being qualified to teach German / Art / History, etc?

TiAAAAARGHo Fri 26-Oct-12 12:54:00

I would also hope primary maths can be done without a calculator.

I read last year about some trainees on the PGCE having to take the basic numeracy and literacy tests tens of times before managing to pass - and my SIL who is a teacher informs me that the tests are not actually difficult. I find that worrying and think that the standard of teachers should be higher. But then I am heavily influenced by someone I know who became a teacher and who stopped communicating with me the day I had to send him his own email back saying that I could not understand what he had written (half txt spk, half english, spellings not remotely like the words I thought he may possibly have been trying to us, no grammar).

TiAAAAARGHo Fri 26-Oct-12 12:55:28

*use

donnie Fri 26-Oct-12 12:58:53

I only have a 'C' in mathematics O level. However, I have an MA and teach Eng Lit and Eng Lang to A level and also do some lit A level/undergrad tutoring on the side.
I make no apologies for being lousy at maths because I am shit hot in my subject.

BrittaPerry Fri 26-Oct-12 12:59:12

I agree that interpersonal skills are just as important, but I want someone who loves learning and has solid basic skills teaching my child.

My sister works really long hours, sorts out all kinds of extra services for her pupils, helps them turn from scared and traumatised children with no english into confident, literate and numerate children and manages to be bith terrifyingly strict and loved by her pupils. She has wanted to be a teacher since her early teens, volunteering at after school clubs and summer schools and has moved from the suburban area where we grew up to a very troubled part of London to head up a year group in a huge school. She finds time on top of that to study for extra qualifications in special needs.

My friend became a teacher because it was the only course that would take her and let her do performance art. She doesn't like noise, can't keep control and has never read a book she didn't have to.

Yet, when your child is in school you have no way of knowing which type of teacher your child will get, and be stuck with for one of the precious few years of primary education.

BrittaPerry Fri 26-Oct-12 13:00:15

Being a specialised teacher is different. Being a primary school teacher needs rounded skills.

LaVolcan Fri 26-Oct-12 13:05:16

I agree that primary arithmetic should be do-able without a calculator, but nowhere in the link did I see that he was only talking about primary teachers.

I still think he has a stupid prejudice against calculators, which no serious scientist or applied mathematician can do without, (or alternatively a computer package to do the same.)

Numeracy is important, and using a calculator can be a tool to help some children arrive at numeracy.

But then, he is an English graduate, so it's not possible to judge how numerate he is.

rabbitstew Fri 26-Oct-12 13:11:16

Well, he doesn't seem interested in setting out any proof for any of his assertions, so I suspect he's more a stream of consciousness sort of person...

rabbitstew Fri 26-Oct-12 13:18:58

And perhaps he should consider the impact of simultaneously striving to make exams harder to pass at high grades and raising the bar for qualifications required to go into teaching.

Sillybillypoopoomummy Fri 26-Oct-12 13:31:49

obviously I meant that you need the good grades in the subject you are teaching :-) no offence intended. However, I think Gove is on the right lines. He is trying to raise standards, which after years and years of lowering them can only be a good thing. Yes, it is going to take time, and yes, there will be lots of issues to sort, (not least making teaching a more attractive career) but I think that raising standards is a jolly good start.

LaVolcan Fri 26-Oct-12 13:34:07

I don't think anyone disagrees with an attempt to raise standards. My feeling is that he hasn't the foggiest idea about the best way to do it, and is just shooting from the hip.

donnie Fri 26-Oct-12 13:39:25

Presumably this is the same Michael Gove who recently went on record to 'apologise to his teachers for being unteachable' ? If only they had had these tests in place back then!

Yet another initiative to add to all the other initiatives which don't actually help anyone.

I am lucky - I have a p/t job in a great school and have been here for years. I will stay, too. However, nothing on earth would induce me to enter the profession now as a new graduate. Wild horses would not drag me.

EvilTwins Fri 26-Oct-12 15:53:14

I don't necessarily think it's a bad thing, but I don't think that it will mean that teaching then attracts the "brightest and best". A simple search will tell you that the starting salary for a top employer is £29,000 whilst starting salary for teaching is just under £22,000. If you are a top maths graduate, who could go for a top city accountancy firm, or a teaching job, which are you going to go for? The government needs to make teaching more attractive in order to recruit and retain good people. Better pay, less crap. Teachers have been banging on about it for decades though, so I can't see it changing.

Prarieflower Fri 26-Oct-12 19:25:18

Sorry I disagree re salaries,very few jobs out there and I don't know any graduates who walk into 29K these days.

Teachers are on a jolly good wack before you even you factor in holidays,pay increases,pensions,PPA.

ninah Fri 26-Oct-12 19:29:18

you have a limit of 3 goes at the skills tests this year

Prarieflower Fri 26-Oct-12 19:30:46

The accountancy grad jobs I've seen in say Bristol start at 18K and said candidate will be studying for exams whilst working.

EvilTwins Fri 26-Oct-12 19:37:19

£29,000 is the average starting salary for a graduate employed by one of the top 100 companies (info online- put together by pwc) Don't start about holidays please- anyone who brings that in clearly has no idea how teachers' pay works.

My point was that a top maths graduate is more likely to take up a position with Deloittes or PWC than become a maths teacher. Gove needs to do something tangible, not just bang on about the "brightest and best".

EvilTwins Fri 26-Oct-12 19:39:57

And "factoring in PPA"?? Really?? PPA is 10% of a teacher's timetable. I suppose you also think that teaching is just a 9-3.30 commitment?

Prarieflower Fri 26-Oct-12 19:43:31

But accountancy is boring and doesn't have the holidays.Sorry my dp did accountancy and hated it-they deserve every penny they get in his view.

There are several benefits to being a teacher aside from a good salary.Gov just needs to keep standards high-people will always want to be teachers.

All sectors make sure their employees up their game.Try IT if you don't keep up with the new stuff(even if it means funding and studying in your own time)you're out of work.

Prarieflower Fri 26-Oct-12 19:47:25

Sorry my dp works from 8-6 and carries on working in the evening/weekends-with zero PPA or holidays.

I was a teacher for several years pre kids and sorry I know how it is,it's no harder than many other jobs which don't get an afternoon off a week for paper work.

Try looking for non teaching work,you soon realise that teachers get a good deal,it's quite an eye opener.

Solopower1 Fri 26-Oct-12 19:53:39

Just for the record, Prairie, I've been teaching since the late 80s, full time, and I earn under £30,000. I'm not complaining, but just so you know.

Prarieflower Fri 26-Oct-12 20:04:16

Aren't you doing threshold,I'm sure I got more than that when I left(had threshold)?In IT if you want to get higher salaries you have to do some management in many areas.

DialMforMummy Fri 26-Oct-12 20:07:49

I think that is probably fair if you teach in primary.
I also think it not make the recruitment of teachers easier. I completely agree with Ronaldo. Gove needs to make the job more attractive so that well qualified graduates are tempted to give it a go.

EvilTwins Fri 26-Oct-12 20:15:26

I don't deny that the salary is good, it's just nowhere near good enough to attract the "brightest and best" Gove is on about.

PPA is not an afternoon a week if you're a secondary teacher. It's a free lesson here and there. And if you were a teacher, Prairie, then you'll know that 2.5 hours per week is nowhere near long enough for the amount of work involved.

I love my job, and FWIW, I am probably one that Gove would approve of- I got As & Bs in all my GCSEs & A Levels and have a degree from an RG university. Standards do need to be maintained, but until the job is made more attractive, graduates who could earn more will take those jobs.

vj32 Fri 26-Oct-12 20:40:40

I remember the skills tests when i did them as being quite easy, and you didn't use a calculator - it was all mental maths. Anyway, I remember the difficulty with the Skills Tests was not passing the tests at all. It was passing the tests in a city 20miles away after a term of long days at schools while sleep deprived with commuting an hour each way every day and completing assignments.

Of course now I know that I knew nothing about sleep deprivation then, as I haven't consistently had enough sleep in about 2 years. (toddler at home now!)

BoneyBackJefferson Fri 26-Oct-12 20:58:59

Its not so much about training teachers (although I have no problems with tougher testing before startint the course)

The bigger problem is retaining the good teachers. The majority of bad teachers leave anyway, but IT specialists, Engineers, Scientists etc. will get jobs elsewhere with less stress and better pay.

Prarieflower Fri 26-Oct-12 21:30:49

Less stress Boney pmsl!!!!!

Dp came back from his holiday to find both his managers gone so he is now doing their work and his. When you have shed loads of money relying on code you write,ridiculous deadlines (which can change in a whisper),continuous updating........ it's urmmmm quite stressful.

Also people getting these alleged better salaries would have to take out a massive % to get anywhere near the pensions teachers get.

EvilTwins Fri 26-Oct-12 21:34:03

I don't think that many 21 year olds think about pensions.

mrz Fri 26-Oct-12 21:36:30

Currently primary teachers must have a GCSE in Maths and English and pass a skills test in both plus ICT, as well as having a degree, which presumably required higher order literacy skills in order to complete assignments hmm

BraaaaaainsButterfield Fri 26-Oct-12 21:37:02

Personally I found the skills tests so easy that I always feel hmm when I find out one of my colleagues needed more than one attempt at any of them. They really were laughably simple.

Prarieflower Fri 26-Oct-12 21:37:02

More fool them.

21 year old teachers don't have to,they can enjoy their entire salary and not make extra provision.

EvilTwins Fri 26-Oct-12 21:40:37

Chip on your shoulder, Prairie?? hmm

The starting salaries for Gove's "brightest and best" are simply not comparable. And as a once 21 year old PGCE student, the holidays argument is pointless, as I had no money to go away at peak time and no one to go with.

Prarieflower Fri 26-Oct-12 21:50:38

Why on earth would I have a chip?I'm just saying how it is.In these times teachers have it good(so much so I'm considering a return myself)-sorry.

Re being a 21 PGCE grad,it's no diff than any other grad in any other sector.There are masses of things you can do in the hols-Bunac,inter railing...Being broke doesn't mean you can't have fun,dp would love 12 weeks off a year and could fill it all with fun free stuff.

EvilTwins Fri 26-Oct-12 22:09:20

Perhaps Mr Gove should recruit you, Prairie. You could go round the top universities, at the same time as the milk round, telling soon-to-be graduates that teaching is fabulous. That would sort it. hmm

EvilTwins Fri 26-Oct-12 22:10:10

Perhaps your DP should become a teacher, then. Sounds like he hates his job.

Feenie Fri 26-Oct-12 22:18:28

Of course now I know that I knew nothing about sleep deprivation then, as I haven't consistently had enough sleep in about 2 years. (toddler at home now!)

I agree - I thought I knew all about exhaustion until I had a child.

Have managed an outstanding observation from Ofsted after just 4 hours sleep though - ds, then 1 yrs, had a chest infection.

<hard core>

grin

Prarieflower Fri 26-Oct-12 22:20:23

No he loves it-when he's left to get on with it!

Evil you sound as if you've got a chip to be frank.Surely anybody who hates teaching shouldn't be doing it.

All sectors have to improve and raise their game.If doctors got the hump every time new initiatives/requirements came in we'd be up shit creek ditto IT and most other professions.

I think as a profession teachers take things to heart too much at times.Professions will always need to evolve,improve.No profession can stand still-this will raise standards.

Prarieflower Fri 26-Oct-12 22:21:18

<respect to Feenie>

Brycie Fri 26-Oct-12 22:24:03

I think he's right, and today I saw the ACTL (or was it the NAHT) confused welcoming it as increasing the professional standing of the.. profession. Anyway, one of the problems was said to be, what about the teachers with poor numeracy and literacy already working, and what about TAs.

Brycie Fri 26-Oct-12 22:25:44

"Currently primary teachers must have a GCSE in Maths and English and pass a skills test in both plus ICT, as well as having a degree, which presumably required higher order literacy skills in order to complete assignments"

mrz There are always people complaining about their child's teachers spelling. I haven't seen any complaining about numeracy.

Brycie Fri 26-Oct-12 22:27:10

But I think teachers should be paid more too - I think doing that, and increasingly the professional standing of teachers, will bring in a higher standard applicant.

EvilTwins Fri 26-Oct-12 22:27:22

No, I love my job. I'm in a fortunate position in that I work for an excellent Head Teacher. It riles me that Gove goes on and on about raising standards, as if all teachers are poorly educated with low aspirations. It just seems obvious to me that if he wants teaching to be something the top graduates seriously consider, he needs to make terms and salaries compete with the jobs those top graduates are currently going for. OK, so there are fantastically long (unpaid) holidays, but there are no expense accounts, so cars, none of the perks offered by the city firms. Teach First is often wheeled out as an example of a successful scheme to get these highly educated people into teaching, but I actually find the whole concept utterly depressing. Teach first, but then go off and have a proper career... Teach first, while you're thinking about what you really want to do... What is needed is just "Teach" not "Teach First". Make it a job people WANT.

partystress Fri 26-Oct-12 22:27:38

I did a PGCE as a very mature career changer 4 years ago. I did find the tests easy and share the hmm feeling towards those who didn't as the skills being tested were fairly basic and necessary for almost any job. BUT I have severe reservations about anything Gove says or does because so little thought seems to go into anything coming out of his dept. in particular, I worry that the focus will be on testing what is easiy testable (ie computer scored, no grey areas) rather than on identifying the actual and potential skills that are needed if someone is to develop into a good teacher.

My fear is heightened by this week having had to produce a marking scheme for a mock version of the new grammar test for Y6 children. The test didn't come from the DfE, but from a well known publisher, interpreting the few pronouncements there have been and anticipating what the actual test would look like. Despite having worked as a copywriter, edited academic journals, worked as a speech writer and achieved a distinction in my masters, I could not answer some of the questions. Finding the motivation to teach 10 year olds, many of whom have English as a second or third language, such useless and irrelevant "skills", when what they really need is the ability to communicate in real life situations, is proving challenging.

Maybe the most effective test would be one which asks "How willing are you to do something you believe to be completely pointless, and possibly counterproductive? And how would you stay positive and productive while being continually sniped at by politicians who change the goalposts for you and your students on a whim?

partystress Fri 26-Oct-12 22:28:56

And I know I forgot my closing speech marks blush.

Feenie Fri 26-Oct-12 22:29:40

But the message sent out by having tougher Numeracy and Literacy tests mixed with the notion that anyone at all can teach - those ideas are so at odds with each other as to be ludicrous.

goinnowhere Fri 26-Oct-12 22:41:02

As a teacher I don't have any problem eith making the tests tough. Why would I want colleagues who struggle? As a secondary school teacher I haven't actually come across any with poor literacy or numeracy anyway.

Prarieflower Fri 26-Oct-12 22:43:51

Evil very few graduates are going to walk out into a job with a car,expense accounts etc.You're not comparing like with like.These type of perks just don't exist anymore.A tiny fraction of grads will get jobs in lucrative careers and build up to such perks but that isn't the reality for the maj who are not going to walk into a vast plethora of jobs offering amazing perks.To be frank most grads these days will be lucky to get a job full stop.

The TA thing bugs me though as I've had shocking TAs in the past.Fat lot of good increasing standards with teachers if staff who spend a lot of time guiding,teaching,sometimes marking,taking group work have low standards.

Feenie Fri 26-Oct-12 22:51:56

As a teacher I don't have any problem eith making the tests tough

Neither do I. But how can that notion coexist beside 'actually - do you know what? Anyone can be a teacher, it's not difficult, you don't need any specific qualifications'.

EvilTwins Fri 26-Oct-12 22:55:05

The data produced by pwc disagrees with you, Prairie. I'm not making this stuff up! Gove doesn't just want graduates, he wants "top" graduates, so he needs to provide salaries and terms which compete. The information is easily available, and the average starting salary of graduates in 2012 taken on by the top 100 graduate companies was £29,000. I am not coming up with this in order to perpetuate a row. It's fact. Gove wants people to choose teaching over top 100 companies. He sees that as the key to improving standards in education. However, he is seemingly unwilling to make teaching a comparable profession.

goinnowhere Fri 26-Oct-12 22:55:17

It can't. If they try to improve"quality", they may reduce the quantity.

Feenie Fri 26-Oct-12 23:00:51

Gove doesn't just want graduates, he wants "top" graduates, so he needs to provide salaries and terms which compete.

You're right - and he also wants anyone to be a teacher. confused

rabbitstew Fri 26-Oct-12 23:01:37

Well, it seems to me that comparisons between the workloads of different types of jobs are utterly silly.

Does Prarieflower's dh HAVE to work the hours he does in order not to be sacked, or does he actually enjoy doing it? Could he actually work more efficiently and get home earlier if he really wanted to, or have more time sipping coffee and daydreaming at his desk in between meetings if he fancied rather than being totally consumed by work all day, and is his job physical or sedentary? Did he have to end up with the level of responsibility he now has, or could he have floated along on less pay and less responsibility?

Do all teachers work the same hours and have the same level of commitment and ambition, or is everyone talking about what a slacker could get away with? What about teachers who do ALL the things that different people seem to want from them, rather than insisting on sticking with their contractual terms, whether turning up to PTA events to help out and running after school clubs for free or spending hours preparing meticulous lesson plans, taking on mentoring responsibilities, doing leadership courses and projects to prove your desire to move forward in your career, "going the extra mile"??? And what about the sort of school that you work in? Different pressures, depending, surely? Is Prarieflower an expert on all schools? Isn't part of the issue that Prarieflower didn't take her teaching role quite as seriously when she did it as her dh takes his role?... Or did she try ever so hard to work like a dog for the benefit of all the children, parents, head teacher and other staff in the school where she used to work and still found that she had plenty of time to twiddle her thumbs? Or did she only do what she really had to, because she had a life outside of work, thank you very much? And is that the sort of teacher Michael Gove is looking for, or is he looking for the sort who will overwork themselves for the greater good?

rabbitstew Fri 26-Oct-12 23:03:34

And if you actually want teachers to overwork themselves for the greater good, then you should pay them more to do it, or you'll get people looking for a reasonable quality of life, instead....

Prarieflower Fri 26-Oct-12 23:03:58

I don't believe the type of people going for jobs in top companies in the city with the buzz that comes with that would want to go into teaching.It's apples and pears.You either want to teach or you don't,it has nothing to do with money.

rabbitstew Fri 26-Oct-12 23:05:54

Going into teaching these days isn't just about "teaching" in the traditional sense, though, is it?

rabbitstew Fri 26-Oct-12 23:06:49

And I know people who have chosen to leave the buzz of the City (along with their vast savings) after a few years to become teachers, so it can't be completely apples and pears.

rabbitstew Fri 26-Oct-12 23:08:43

Prairieflower - go and tell Xenia you don't think peoples' career choices have anything to do with money. I'm sure she'd disagree with you!

BraaaaaainsButterfield Fri 26-Oct-12 23:13:14

I do have to say that the 'teaching' part of my job is far and away the easiest part. Teaching a class is fun! It's all the rest that's hard.

Prarieflower Fri 26-Oct-12 23:16:01

Rabbit no dp has no choice.You only get 1 months notice if you don't perform as others have found out.Luckily for us he enjoys it.It's no different in most other private companies.

I worked comparable hours and enjoyed it.

Yes I can't comment on all schools/situations but neither can you.The fact is every sector has to keep on top of the game re training,standards etc-it's part of life.

Most workers on what teachers get are working their arses off(and don't have holidays to recharge).The hours my sister does on top of the hours traveling to clients/studying is exhausting.She can never recharge or switch off as she just doesn't get the holiday time(it's quite paltry).Yes I worked through a lot of the holidays but I still had a lot more than private sector workers get.

Sorry but teachers don't have it any worse than any other profession,we're all working harder for the same(or less money).

Prarieflower Fri 26-Oct-12 23:18:08

Not sure how these initiatives are going to cause more work-teachers will already have the qualifications.

happilyconfused Fri 26-Oct-12 23:20:19

Basically we are now saying what many have said over the past few years. GCSEs are worthless and degrees have becoming so devalued that other tests are now required for people entering teaching.

marriedinwhite Fri 26-Oct-12 23:30:59

I think there is a massive issue about primary school teaching/teachers. They have to teach everything to children from the age of 4 to the age of 11. They have to be Jacks (or Jills) of all trades. They are expected to teach Literacy, Numeracy, History, Geography, an MFL, RE, science, PSHE, PE, Music, Art, identify those with SEN and cater for them (across the entire spectrum from those who are disabled to those who are g&t), identify those in need and who need the intervention of SS.

The system is fundamentally flawed and there needs to be a great deal more specialisation.

Remembers sadly the Head who once wrote "last year there was more boys than girls in Y1", the Y3 teacher who mixed up the x and y axes, the Y4 teacher who sent home incorrect spellings and when they were corrected by parents to the correct spellings for their children to learn and when the children wrote the correct spellings marked them wrong.

I do think Michael Gove has a point but I think it goes beyond primary teachers having better functional skills. Children who grow into adults cannot develop better functional skills within the system as it presently operates.

goinnowhere Fri 26-Oct-12 23:32:19

It's not about workload fgs. If fewer people get onto courses, and supply drops. Or if he only wants RG 2.1 grads, he may have to pay more.

lorisparkle Fri 26-Oct-12 23:47:19

Why do these threads always end up with a 'teachers have it so easy' argument. Every job has its pros and cons but very few jobs and very few professionals are treated in the media and by the general public so badly. No wonder children lack respect for their teachers (so misbehave and make life difficult for all involved) when their parents haven't. Until I was a parent and spoke to other parents I did not really believe that there were people who were so ignorant that they actually believed that teachers work from 9-3, do nothing on the weekend, evening or in the holidays, and use their inset days as an extra day off. Unbelievably there are and well educated people who when their child is told off by the teacher for not joining in an activity the parent comforts the child instead of backing the teacher up.

In countries with high educational standards teaching is considered to be an excellent profession, teachers are trusted to get on with their jobs, decisions about education are not made by politician but by academics, and parents respect the teachers.

There must be something wrong with the standard of GCSEs, degrees and teaching training qualificaions if someone with a Grade C in English and Maths and a degree has not got the required literacy and numeracy standard to teach.

If you want excellent teachers then you have to make teaching a profession that is respected and desirable. This does not have to be financial you just have to stop teacher bashing. Reborts like 'it is the teachers fault if pupils lack ambition', 'teachers are responsible for preventing anorexia and eating disorders', 'teachers need to start working harder and stay after school and work on the weekends', do not help make the profession desirable.

LucyBorgia Sat 27-Oct-12 00:53:58

Entrance into teaching requires excellent grades in leaving cert in Ireland. If you are a postgrad the competition is fierce for places. It is a well respected profession in Ireland and up until recent....erm... Financial indiscretions in the donkey led government .... It has been a very well paid job. All the teachers I work with are driven, talented and proud of their career. The attitude to teaching in England makes me feel ill. High stress, low pay, no respect and questionable standards when it comes to entrance expectations all amount to a terrible job description. If the great and good are to stay (I'm looking at you Mrz) and the young, bright,driven ones are to sign up it has to be treated as a profession to be proud of.

LucyBorgia Sat 27-Oct-12 00:56:23

Ooh loris sparkle I think we xposted with the same point. wink you are very clever have a gold star.

Ronaldo Sat 27-Oct-12 07:29:54

So everyone is still banging on about it being all about pay and holidays? Just a few beginning to suggest there might be other issues involved now. But still no one wants to address the elephant in the room do they? ... Nor will I as its so big it will trample me to death. But it does need to be dealt with nonetheless. Then you might find teaching attrating the best teachers in the game.

Prarieflower Sat 27-Oct-12 08:42:36

There is no money though and if you're going to employ masses of teachers on higher wages(which the country can't afford anyway) you'd have to have a massive cull of the less qualified teachers in order to pay for it.

Surely teachers just need to be better qualified on entering the profession and an increase of respect will follow.I suspect the lack of respect(I have never actually came across) would be down to Britain being quite low on international league tables.Surely this new initiative will help with that.

mrz Sat 27-Oct-12 08:44:07

No one is going to employ masses of teachers and teacher wages are frozen so I'm not sure of your point.

goinnowhere Sat 27-Oct-12 08:53:04

I am another one Govey would approve of. String of A's, excellent degree etc etc. The assumption that you are mediocre and so on, bothers me far more than pay. I am the only one of my many similar friends in teaching, the rest chose law, accountancy, consultancy. They did see it as too low paid and think dealing with teenagers is too tough.

chibi Sat 27-Oct-12 09:02:49

i am confused by the way in which teaching and education is constructed here. I did my first degree and trained to teach elsewhere. My degree was mostly theoretical physics, with all the complicated maths that entailled. I was bemused to find that despite this, i needed to prove tgat i could calculate a mean in order to be qualified to teach here.

I have just recently finished an MA for which I wrote a 20 000 word dissertation. If I were training to teach now, this would apparently not be proof that i can write a sentence, or use punctuation correctly. [confused)

fivecandles Sat 27-Oct-12 09:05:29

What seems completely illogical to me is that these tests are so far below the level of a PGCE i.e. they're the equivalent of a grade B at GCSE. So, if you want teachers to have the equivalent of a grade B at GCSE why not just ask for grade Bs at GCSE in English and Maths. What's the point of getting would-be teachers to go backwards in terms of their qualifications. It's insulting to Maths or English teachers but potentially a real and unnecessary obstacle to those would be teachers who just scraped a B or even a C in GCSEs in for example Maths but have gone on to be English teachers (like me) and never really needed to use those Maths skills from GCSE since passing it.

rabbitstew Sat 27-Oct-12 09:08:27

Whatever Prarieflower says, when I was looking around at potential careers, accountancy and law were one HELL of a lot more lucrative to the "best" graduates than teaching. Why would anyone want to go into social work or teaching in state schools if all you get are complaints and poor facilities? Much more tempting to work for a large firm which pays for your taxi home when you go home late at night, matches your payments into your pension scheme, offers you private healthcare, starts you as a TRAINEE on well above the average UK salary, continuously offers and pays for extra training to ensure you can specialise in your area of interest, provides you with a gym or gym membership, offers the chance to work overseas, takes you out for nice meals as you discuss your progress with your mentor, provides you with a ready-made social life with lots of other trainees your age, tells you how brilliant and clever you are to have got there etc.... by the time you realise you get all this in return for your soul, you've trapped yourself into a high mortgage and a lifestyle to go along with the income... and the rest of the world is poorer for the loss of such talent to other parts of the economy. The most lucrative careers have become so incredibly lucrative and far removed from normal life that a lot of people, seeing the state of the housing market and how expensive life is becoming, can be tempted into them - even people who might have made good and inspiring teachers...

fivecandles Sat 27-Oct-12 09:08:30

Exactly, Chibi. You'd sort of hope that by the time you are a graduate and have therefore got decent grades in all the qualifications going that you would have achieved basic numeracy and literacy years ago. If not, then the problem isn't with teachers, it's with the education system in the first place. If C grades at GCSE in Maths and English (let alone A Levels and a degree) are not sufficient evidence of numeracy and literacy then that's where the problem lies!!!

KatAndKit Sat 27-Oct-12 09:13:36

I taught in French in Secondary for 10 years. I have A grade A levels and a 2:1 degree from a very well respected University. I did my PGCE at Cambridge University. I thought the skills tests at the time were easy to be honest.
The reason why I can't see myself going back to teaching is not the pay (it is reasonable if you live outside of London) or the workload (other jobs have long hours too. It is the appalling behaviour issues that ground me down day in day out. I loved teaching when I was given the chance to and I worked hard at it too. But a lot of the time I was not given the chance to as poor behaviour was not dealt with adequately and parents of the miscreants didn't give a toss that their child was spoiling lessons for a whole class. My mental health suffered in the end.

If secondary schools were nicer places to work in, Gove might find more people wanting to become teachers. Obviously not all schools are the same and I'm sure a good number of teachers don't have the same level of poor behaviour to deal with, but I am certainly not the only one who has left the profession because of this. And I'm sure I could have passed a harder skills test.

Prarieflower Sat 27-Oct-12 09:14:14

It was in answer to wages needing be higher if standards are risen.If a larger proportion of teachers have higher qualifications with a higher salary the cost will be enormous.What happens to the ones with lower qualifications?

This issue was tackled years ago.When my mother became a teacher you didn't even need a degree,by the time I qualified you did.From my understanding the non degree teachers were just treated the same(could well be wrong)and needing a degree didn't put people off joining the profession.

I guess you could have a 2 tier pay structure but then with tight budgets there is a danger of schools going for the cheaper option.

Personally I think a lot of high flyers aren't attracted to teaching because of the job itself not the salary.You have to be a particular type of person to a)want to teach maths to a load of challenging teenagers b)enjoy teaching maths to a load of challenging teenagers and c)actually be good at it.Uber bright people in my experience don't always make the best teachers.

I just think raising the standards over all is a good thing and trying to attract high flyers is a separate issue.

Arisbottle Sat 27-Oct-12 09:18:27

Happily confused I am not a teacher just because of my GCSEs but my A Levels, my degree, my MA and then my PGCE.

So this cannot be used as an excuse to have a pop at GCSEs.

mrz Sat 27-Oct-12 09:20:37

Will this test raise standards ?
Doubtful as teachers have already shown themselves capable of achieving higher levels to gain their degree ...as someone pointed out it's all a bit of a red herring for political purposes (and have you seen the price of poisson rouge?)

Arisbottle Sat 27-Oct-12 09:20:41

Prairie I had a top job with a well regarded company and decided to leave that to go into teaching. So it is not a case of apples and pears at all. I was initially put off going into teaching my tales of the workload, imagined low status and pay. I wouldn't go back t my old job now, which suggests that the grass was actually greener

Arisbottle Sat 27-Oct-12 09:24:08

Katandkit not all secondary schools are tough, it is sad that you could not find a school that matched your skillet.

Yes. Brign those test on.lets all pass them and show the country we're not a bunch of illiterate babysitting holiday makers.

ZZZenAgain Sat 27-Oct-12 09:25:40

I think it is a reasonable move. Anyone who intends to teach will, I am sure, be quite capable of teaching himself the necessary spelling and grammar skills to pass this test in order to get onto the course. I would assume the necessary numeracy skills would already be there, but if not how long would it take you to acquire them? If it were me, I would get a textbook for maths and a grammar workbook for English and work through them. It really wouldn't take long to fill in the main gaps and would give teachers more confidence once qualified. I really don't see how it is a big deal. It affects future teachers and not those currently working in the profession.

Arisbottle Sat 27-Oct-12 09:25:51

Today I am so knackered that I think I just may be an illiterate , babysitting holiday maker. grin

Prarieflower Sat 27-Oct-12 09:28:18

Rabbit that isn't real life in the private sector-it's cloud cuckoo land.

You're confusing real life with top city,banking jobs and in my experience of Eton/Oxbridge educated bankers they are the last sort of people who would choose to hang out with challenging teenagers in inner city London.

rabbitstew Sat 27-Oct-12 09:33:28

In other words, what puts a lot of people off teaching is the imagined low status, workload and pay prior to entering the profession. What puts a lot of people off once in the profession is bad behaviour in the classroom and the amount of time spent on activities that are not actually "teaching."

rabbitstew Sat 27-Oct-12 09:35:35

It's my experience, Prarieflower... grin And there were quite a few very unhappy colleagues where I worked who would have made far better teachers than the unhappy lawyers they were. And, as I say, I do know a few bankers who subsequently went into teaching. They are not the poles apart you think, they are just people who got confused...

orangeandlemons Sat 27-Oct-12 09:40:19

Now the wonderful Gove, wants to get rid of teachers' working rights too............and he wants to attract the top graduates. Whywould anyone want to work in a place where they have no protection?

LaQueen Sat 27-Oct-12 09:46:07

It's about time smile

I know someone who had to re-take the numeracy test 5 times, before passing.

And, the same person somehow managed to become an English teacher, despite not having A Level English, and only a grade B at GCSE English. Their degree was in a soft subject, with vague pretentions towards meeja hmm

This person has somehow managed to secure a job at a selective grammar school, teaching English from Yr 7 to A Level - and is now finding the work very challenging.

No shit, Sherlock... grin

Prarieflower Sat 27-Oct-12 09:46:15

Orange seriously you have no idea re protection.In the private sector you get 1 months notice and a weeks pay for each year you've worked there.If you don't work your arse off you're out-pronto.Tis quite scary if you change jobs which you have to do if you want more money etc.My dp's boss was sacked a week after he had an MRI scan.sad

mrz Sat 27-Oct-12 09:50:24

Funny LaQueen but there is a limit to 3 attempts hmm

BoneyBackJefferson Sat 27-Oct-12 09:51:03

Prarieflower

"Surely teachers just need to be better qualified on entering the profession and an increase of respect will follow."

On entering the profession (until recently) all teachers have a degree (normally Honours). How much more qualified do you want them you be?

As for respect they/we won't get that until papers/politicians and the general poublic stop taking cheap shots.

UnderwaterCasketWeaving Sat 27-Oct-12 09:53:39

Re sillybillypoopoomummy:

I got a B in the subject I teach, but have had many students achieve A* in the few years I've been teaching.

This is because:
1, I am no longer a 16 year old student myself
2, I have since done a couple of degrees.
3, I've worked "in industry"
4, I've studied learning, neuroscience and child development (through my own volition)
5, I'm a trained teacher
6, I continue to train in my subject and it's pedagogy.
7, I bloody love what I do, and I'm good at it.

Why on earth do people think teaching is an easy option for lazy thick people? <blames government>

And furthermore, what gives those outside of the industry, who have a very poor understanding of the job, a right to judge and comment? I don't tell you you're shit at your job and should justify everything you do with reams of paperwork. Why demonise a whole profession?

<starting to crack under relentless scrutiny>

Ever heard of a self-fulfilling prophecy?

UnderwaterCasketWeaving Sat 27-Oct-12 09:55:37

LaQueen, the above goes for you too.

Arisbottle Sat 27-Oct-12 10:01:39

Prairie I did not work in the city and did not attend Eton but my experience of the private sector was quite similar to to that described by rabbit.

ZZZenAgain Sat 27-Oct-12 10:08:13

no , please try not to crack, good teachers are recognised and appreciated by parents but surely you have also read the many posts on MN about teachers who really have difficulty with spelling and grammar. I also remember posts from parents, concerned because their dc were being taught incorrect facts at secondary level. I specifically remember one about history teaching. It stuck in my mind because I am an historian. I assume that all my dd's teachers are doing a good job, unless I come across evidence to the contrary and I assume this is the attitude most parents have. However, few parents are beyond worrying about their dc's education.

What makes teaching a so highly criticised profession these days is probably down to parental worry, exacerbated by the extent of current media focus on failing education standards - not all of it unjustified. There are few other professions or lines of work I can think of which bear so direct an influence on the current well-being of our dc and their future prospects. Our dc are at school for a very long period of time each week. It isn't always easy for a parent to counter-balance the effect of school on a dc's behaviour and academic achievement. If things are going great at school, we probably don't seem appreciative but when things go badly, of course we get extremely worried about it. I doubt that past generations of parents were bombarded with quite the amount of media focus on education standards that we are these days.

Chandon Sat 27-Oct-12 10:14:08

Teacher pay is very low, imo.

In anyother profession, if you want the highest calibre candidates it is simple: you offer a competitive salary.

The higher salary will lead to more competition, and to only the best candiates getting through, this wil improve standards.

Also, and sadly, parents and pupils will respect teachers more if they are high earners.

Obviously there is no money to do this, so what can be done? Not much IMO.

My parents are teachers, they started out 50 years ago. My mum was able to buy her own house on her teaching salary. Being a teacher was on par, in terms of respect and salary, with being a doctor or an engineer or any other qualified professional.

Tbh, I think lots of professions, nursing, policing AND teaching are underpaid.

Salaries just never kept up with inflation.

Prarieflower Sat 27-Oct-12 10:17:44

Arisbottle when did you leave and what did you do because it's not the experience of our various well educated f&f working in diff private sectors?

UnderwaterCasketWeaving Sat 27-Oct-12 10:19:16

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

mrz Sat 27-Oct-12 10:19:44

I don't think salaries come into it. Most long serving teachers aren't in the job for wages, pensions or holidays.

Ronaldo Sat 27-Oct-12 10:22:48

In other words, what puts a lot of people off teaching is the imagined low status, workload and pay prior to entering the profession. What puts a lot of people off once in the profession is bad behaviour in the classroom and the amount of time spent on activities that are not actually "teaching."

BANG! Nail hits head dead centre.

I am a "high flyer" who wanted to teach but I went into university teaching because I had a passion for my subject and I wanted to pass on my knowledge and passion. I now work in the independent sector for the same reasons.

I do not need to be bused on a daily basis by ignorant , rude, crude, disdainful, disrespectful ill mannered lazy couldnt care less shameless so called young people . Its the raw material that needs changing not the teachers. PARENTS need to shape up and send children who ready to be taught and they need to make sure they keep them that way.

Its not just a few state schools who siffer from the behaviour problem, its a good many - even the majority.

Brycie Sat 27-Oct-12 10:26:53

Ronaldo - well that's not going to happen quickly. Schools need tougher disiplinary powers and teachers need to feel unafraid.

Arisbottle Sat 27-Oct-12 10:31:19

I worked at quite a high level in retail management . I left about eight years ago. I am being deliberately vague . I left because I wanted to feel I was contributing and I wanted to see more of my children . I figured the paycut was worth it.

Arisbottle Sat 27-Oct-12 10:32:35

Ronaldo I went into teaching for similar reasons and get all that from the state sector. What an awful attitude you have to 93% of the population .

Arisbottle Sat 27-Oct-12 10:33:32

Brycie what disciplinary powers do you want us to have, that we do not already have ?

I agree those powers may not be used well but I don't think I want any more power.

LaQueen Sat 27-Oct-12 11:19:16

mrz this was 5 years ago. I think you were allowed to re-take up to 8 times, then?

rabbitstew Sat 27-Oct-12 11:24:20

Well, my dss are at a state primary and I think the behaviour of the children is perfectly OK and the teachers all work hard, but what impresses me the most as a parent is that when I go to talk to the teachers at parents' evening, they really do seem to have understood my children as whole people - not just their academic achievements, but the way they work and think. The teachers really do care about my children. My children have gained hugely from going to that school, emotionally, socially and academically and it has inspired them to want to learn - ie I have felt it has always been a good partnership between school and home. Frankly, I don't think teaching is at all easy, not if it is to be done brilliantly, which I think most parents concerned about education would rather like, if possible! Unfortunately, if the trust between parents and teachers has broken down, then all you get is defensiveness on both sides, because that is human nature, and where you get everyone being defensive, you don't get a happy outcome. If the government is trying some psychological way of improving peoples' views of the teaching profession, it is doing it with a rather blunt instrument.

Bonsoir Sat 27-Oct-12 11:44:53

Teacher training (whether primary or secondary) needs to be overhauled, with much more rigorous selection criteria. Teachers ought to have Masters Degrees in Teaching.

mummyofteens Sat 27-Oct-12 11:52:04

But when you can access a teacher training degree course with very poor a level results, take maths gcse several times until you manage to scrape a C grade ..

I know this doesn't apply to ALL teachers.

rabbitstew Sat 27-Oct-12 11:52:26

I don't think teaching has ever been a particularly respected profession in this country, particularly not primary school teaching. I think it has always suffered from the rampant sexism that was also part of our class structure - the belief that any form of involvement with young people is easy work that shouldn't tax the brain or provide any huge challenge; not like concerning yourself with world domination. After all, women took the main responsibility for all that, didn't they, and women were silly, weak individuals not fit for anything much else, so it stood to reason that it must be easy, or they wouldn't be doing it, and any man involved in it must be a bit weird...

Bonsoir Sat 27-Oct-12 11:57:19

rabbitstew - there was an interview with Bill Clinton in the FT a few months ago where he explained that the reason why primary schools had all gone down the drain was that intelligent women were all working as investment bankers/lawyers/doctors these days. In the past, primary school teaching was one of the only careers available to women and it got away with paying peanuts. These days it still pays peanuts and no longer gets away with it.

KatAndKit Sat 27-Oct-12 11:59:50

Ronaldo, most children in state schools are not as you describe. The majority do want to learn, even in more challenging schools. Sadly their time is often wasted because teachers have to focus so much attention on dealing with the disruptive minority.
I'm not sure what "powers" you could give teachers though.

goinnowhere Sat 27-Oct-12 12:23:11

Think there is a definite difference in the perception of primary and secondary, even though pay is the same. Most sec teachers have done a subject degree in an "academic" subject, which often have reasonable entry requirements, and if course, more men do it.

mrz Sat 27-Oct-12 12:29:57

and what do primary teachers have goinnowhere?

goinnowhere Sat 27-Oct-12 12:36:11

Many have teaching degrees, and I think there are some people who think you can waltz in with any old A levels for those. Not my opinion, hence "" around the word academic. We are talking about perception and image.

Brycie Sat 27-Oct-12 13:09:45

Arisbottle: well there you may have called my bluff. I am thinking mainly of exclusion. When reading about behaviour problems I tend to side with the teacher and feel sympathy that their hands are tied, rather than realising they have powers which they've chosen not to use.

Someone was speaking about the disruptive minority, and I do agree. The power of one to ruin things for so many others doesn't seem to have been properly dealt with over the years.

Brycie Sat 27-Oct-12 13:11:05

Not all degrees are equal. Aren't tt colleges/courses becoming more discriminating without this latest thing? I understand a 2:1 is required. Still a 2:1 is an old 2:2 (sweeping)

Ronaldo Sat 27-Oct-12 13:39:56

Ronaldo, most children in state schools are not as you describe. The majority do want to learn, even in more challenging schools. Sadly their time is often wasted because teachers have to focus so much attention on dealing with the disruptive minority

I agree not all the children are as I describe but unfortunately it is a large minority who are disruptive and make teaching all but impossible for much of the time.

This large minority ( in challenging schools it can be more than a third of a class - every class, even in top sets) invariably bring standards of behaviour, academic achievement and aspiration down for all.

As years have gone on things have not improved, they get worse year on year. I worked in challenging schools for 20 of the 25 years I have spent in a school classroom so I think I have a handle on what I am talking about.

Sadly all too often when any6one mentions this real problem there are too many whose standards are either much lower than mine or who just refuse to see the truth, who shout it down. They argue teachers like me are poor, have a bad attitude etc. when all we are trying to do is tell you what is happening. I suspect a lot of parents do not have a clue exactly how bad things are in the DC's classrooms. It’s no use asking DS+C as they often have no comparison point...... Neither did I until I moved out of the state sector and saw for myself what it should be like.

What can be done? What powers can you give me?
Well nothing can be done until you rid me of this (large and growing) disruptive "minority". Give me the power to get them out of my classroom and LET ME TEACH

I know the nay sayers and the all inclusive, everyone must be treated equally, we want all our DC to mix with every type of sub culture and group will not like that. They are the ones who stand in the way of YOUR child’s education. I know that is not politically correct but it is a fact.

Meanwhile people like me will move (rather more quickly than I did because I had some false sense of wanting to "help”) into the private sector, where most often pay, status and conditions are better overall. They know how to get the best teachers.

Ronaldo Sat 27-Oct-12 13:47:50

Ronaldo I went into teaching for similar reasons and get all that from the state sector. What an awful attitude you have to 93% of the population

Arisbotle, you are part of the problem with statements like this. Be part of the solution! Many of your colleagues are getting a raw deal in the classroom. Many of them are abused daily and you would rather blame me ( and them ) than admit the "attitude" comes from many years of abuse.

I have worked in those "challenging" (thats an understatement) schools for much of my school teaching career. I know what I am talking about. I was one of those "head hunted" by a previous government inititive back in the 1990's when they said they needed top graduates and university teachers to "turn things around" Seen it, done it, got a tee shirt and am watching a re run of the video now.

Brycie Sat 27-Oct-12 13:57:45

"nothing can be done until you rid me of this (large and growing) disruptive "minority". Give me the power to get them out of my classroom and let me teach"

I support this. But I think children are let down by the fact that there isn't enough rigorous routine earlier on in education. They should know the class room is not a place to chat, pince, poke, snigger, quietly bully, nudge, kick, push etc. Low level behaviour tolerated and even encouraged (in my opinion which might be crap) by classroom environments.

Autumnmumm Sat 27-Oct-12 14:10:45

I'm a teacher.

The tests for " the brightest and the best" need to include:

Withstanding the cold: in a school where the heating takes 3 days to kick in.
Extreme admin: replying to 17 urgent emails while teaching y9 bottom set double lesson.

Only then can we know for sure who will cut it in the classroom.

KSmith1 Sat 27-Oct-12 15:16:56

Interesting headline from Sally Coates who led the review ‘If our teachers can’t do basic maths, how can we expect our children to?’

More here... www.schoolsimprovement.net/if-our-teachers-cant-do-basic-maths-how-can-we-expect-our-children-to/

BoneyBackJefferson Sat 27-Oct-12 15:56:43

Anything that contains "coveted profession" and "country’s best graduates now choosing this rewarding career." Isn't really all that its cracked up to be.

Brycie Sat 27-Oct-12 16:06:50

Ksmith: "learning through play".

gaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaah

happilyconfused Sat 27-Oct-12 16:31:23

Fine - I don't mind taking another set of tests to keep my teaching post. However whilst we are running the test then everyone else who works in the public sector also has to take them. We can have a wholesale clear out of all the half-wits who work in the public sector - including all of the politicians. I don't want the bar lowered for any managerial idiots in local government and hospitals. Those that remain can then earn the right to higher pay.

Brycie Sat 27-Oct-12 16:33:47

Yes there was some stuff about Labour politicians not being able to do very basic maths. Ridiculous when some are in charge of budgets.

ninah Sat 27-Oct-12 17:36:11

there is absolutely nothing wrong with learning through play
finding out about the world should be exciting
agree with the behaviour though, I have high behavioural expectations for my 4 year olds which they are more than capable of meeting, it is a let down to see them lining up quietly to go somewhere and the older children pushing past, jostling and yelling
a friend who is training recently got feedback for a lesson saying she should soften up her behavioural management
atm hessian is in and strict is out in early years
for the poster who mentioned extreme weather testing, yy we should definitely have that in eyfs!

Brycie Sat 27-Oct-12 17:45:51

For very tiny children yes. Beyond that.. meh.

Ronaldo Sat 27-Oct-12 17:56:55

*Withstanding the cold: in a school where the heating takes 3 days to kick in.
Extreme admin: replying to 17 urgent emails while teaching y9 bottom set double lesson*

Something else I havent had to deal with since shipping out of state schools. smile
.

Arisbottle Sat 27-Oct-12 17:57:27

Byrcie I agree that there are some schools that do not use the discipline methods at their disposal well . Often in the toughest schools I have seen well meaning teachers go soft on students because they felt sorry for them . I was never one of those teachers because coming from a tough chaotic background I know that I benefitted from discipline ,

I don't think we need extra sanctions but we need to use them well .

Brycie Sat 27-Oct-12 18:00:02

I find that very informative.

Arisbottle Sat 27-Oct-12 18:04:41

Ronaldo I know about tough classrooms, i I started my career in tough inner city schools . In my first year I was physically and sexually assaulted by pupils. My point was two fold:

Firstly schools like that are in a minority, studies show that the most common thing we deal with as teachers is low level disruption . I am not underplaying the harm that does to education but most of us are not being threatened.

Secondly there are teachers that can and do teach successfully in tough inner city schools. I accepted at the end of my first year that I was failing my pupils and I toughened up. Even in that environment , with support , I mostly had calm ordered lessons. However if the support from management wasn't there it would not have happened. Often poor management is to blame

Ronaldo Sat 27-Oct-12 18:09:45

nada nada... itsthe teachers fault,they are soft. I am big and strong and I take no prisoners (arisbottle). Yeah, Like hell you do. Tell it to someone who hasnt watched the all talk brigade.

Again its people like you aristbittle who maybe we hneed out of the profession - only maybe because I can only judge you from yoiur words here.

I knew a young teacher - a good teacher in my last school ( middle of the road but going downhill at the time. Now in SM). She was in tears in the office because she had sent for the removals team to take a disruptive child out of class ( he was a regular scroat - I make no apologies for calling himthat) . The manager spoke to the child and left him in her class. She had no sanction at all ..... but that was not why she cried. She cried because she found out that an hour earlier I had called removals and had the kid put into isolation for the dau ( with another manager). She could not understand why I could get action and she couldnt. Not only that she had an "aristbottle" in the same office saying how like she took no sh*t babe and it was all this teachers own fault for being "soft"

If we had fewer aristbottles in management and in classes and a stronger discipline team we might move forward. Its a big might because really a lot of these disruptive pupils need to be excluded permenantly to (a) give an example to the other kids it will not be tolerated in any account and (b) because it is time we got tough on them ...... and no, I dont care what happens to them. I care about the other 66% in my classroom.

Not putting a fine point on it - it isnt tolerated in a private school. Forget what you may have heard. We throw them out darn quick. I could share a few stories of how that is done too.

rabbitstew Sat 27-Oct-12 18:15:40

Ronaldo - I think you're being unfair on Arisbottle. She did point out that teachers need the support of management and that without it even the tough teachers can't cope in the tough schools.
As an aside, I was wondering how many teachers who go into teaching are good at management - I would have thought it would require a slightly different type of person.

Ronaldo Sat 27-Oct-12 18:16:01

Having said allof that, none of the new literacy and numeracy tests will deal with the problem. That needs some real political will and a more supportive attitude amongst teachers for each other.

Brycie Sat 27-Oct-12 18:17:29

I think the political will is coming Ronaldo. Do you sense it?

rabbitstew Sat 27-Oct-12 18:17:38

Now, when it comes to physical and sexual assault, even if the teachers can cope with it, is it fair to inflict it on the children?! No wonder people will move hell and high water to avoid their children going to a school where other children assault each other...

EvilTwins Sat 27-Oct-12 18:23:31

What an obnoxious post, Ronaldo.

You seem to not know the difference between state and private schools. Private schools can kick kids out easily - essentially, their parents are paying customers, and schools have that as their trump card - "thank you very much, take your custom elsewhere"

What do you suppose happens to the kids who are excluded permanently? I find it distasteful that, as a teacher, you can claim to "not care" about those kids. They're not sent to a campsite on the Isle of Wight to wait until they are 18.

What teachers need is a set of consistently applied, robust rules in their school. I teach in a school which has gone from good to satisfactory to SM and back up again over the last 8 years. When we went into SM, we had no consistently applied discipline policy. The HT had his head in the sand, and the OFSTED ruling was pretty much inevitable. Our current HT is good. She insists on standards, and insists that we all follow the same rules. Some of my colleagues are lazy, or feel they don't "need" to follow policy, and they tend to be the ones with problems.

Teachers also need to support each other.

Your "good job I shipped out of state schools" is repulsive. Well done, you.

Arisbottle Sat 27-Oct-12 18:23:43

I am anything but big and strong , I was a weak failing teacher who became stronger with the support of management . I also chose after I had my youngest to work in a much easier school . Hardly big and strong .
As some with responsibility for behaviour I would never undermine a teacher on front if staff , because I have been there myself . I have mafe reccomendations that children are excluded permanently. However I do care what happens to them afterwards,

I do think teachers have to be realistic about the kind of schools that they work in. Whilst I could teach with some success in a tough school , I know that I am much more successful in an easier school. I also couldn't have responsibility for behaviour in a tough school ,

Ronaldo Sat 27-Oct-12 18:25:38

Am I being unfair on her rabbitstew? Then I am sorry, she just reminded me of all the times I have seen that in the tough schools I worked in.

Funny thing is all those teachers have now left teaching and I am still here. So much for them telling me how good they were. I knewone who saidhow her classeswere always " disciplined and well controlled and calm". I used to teach in class opposite her. I took the liberty of watching her often( because she had duped everyone into making her an AST to boot!) when I was testing my sixth formers ( all was quiet in my class and I just stood watching the clock, timing papers and watching my "mentor". Yeah, were her classes calm ( not). I guess if you big yourself up enough in teaching everyone believes you even if you aint what you claim to be. But thats the problem. Those who say " its OK in my class - when it clearly probably isnt - undermine all those who want to say " we have a problem". In fact its indirect bullying. It makes others shut up for fear of being accused of incompetence . That is another problem in teaching that those skill tests wont cure.

Yes it does take a different type of person to have that management skill. Not many have both skill sets. I can do it but I prefer to teach.

Brycie Sat 27-Oct-12 18:26:01

Yes I care what happens to the "excluded" but not at the cost of the children who want to learn. The cost is too high to keep them in class.

What happens to the excluded is a separate issue to be dealt with once they are no longer stopping other children making the best of their education.

Arisbottle Sat 27-Oct-12 18:26:05

Sorry fat fingers on I phone, hence all the errors

EvilTwins Sat 27-Oct-12 18:31:08

Maybe, Brycie, but they are moved to other schools. Are you suggesting they should just be sent somewhere "else" (ie not another school?)

Ronaldo - you sound just as bad - bigging yourself up.

Ronaldo Sat 27-Oct-12 18:33:34

I do think teachers have to be realistic about the kind of schools that they work in. Whilst I could teach with some success in a tough school , I know that I am much more successful in an easier school. I also couldn't have responsibility for behaviour in a tough school

Me too. But I got out too - eventuallywhen I wised up to the fact that my "helping" was misplaced. That osprobably why I am so obnoxious and cant care for those disruptive kids anymore. The caring has been all used up in me. I only care about those who suffer because of them. We have more than a few of those in my current school Bright and slightly dim but nice
"Failure to thrive" in the local comp classroom and desperate parents come to us. But we charge fees - and that just isnt fair either. What is needed is for the state school to be more like us.

Brycie Sat 27-Oct-12 18:34:26

Moving them to other schools is just pointless surely. Can't schools have sin bin type classrooms. You could have one highly brave and highly paid marine teacher in charge to give them a chance and they can disrupt each other.

Apart from the don't care comment I agree with what a lot of Ronaldo says.

Ronaldo Sat 27-Oct-12 18:34:31

sorry - have to go. My computer seems to be running wordstogether. Need to clean keyboard I think

EvilTwins Sat 27-Oct-12 18:36:02

Ronaldo, IMO, you shouldn't be in teaching in that case. You can't pick and choose which students you're going to care about. And no, schools shouldn't be more like yours.

Brycie Sat 27-Oct-12 18:37:13

She sounds like she's a great teacher and would be a loss to the profession. She's done, in a way, the same as Arisbottle: identified where she can give the most benefit. That seems very sensible.

Ronaldo Sat 27-Oct-12 18:39:45

IMO, you shouldn't be in teaching in that case. You can't pick and choose which students you're going to care about

Clearly I can and have.You cannot legislate my feelings eviltwins. You can stop me saying it I suppose. You cant stop what I think and feel.

Brycie Sat 27-Oct-12 18:40:08

And don't forget "soft" teachers are picking which students they care about: the disruptive ones over the non-disruptives.

EvilTwins Sat 27-Oct-12 18:41:06

Brycie, no, of course not. You're really coming across as pretty ignorant here. For a start, kids aren't fundamentally and consistently "disruptive". Some piss around in Science because they don't understand it but are fine in drama. Some find it hard to behave in practical lessons. Some have a shitty home life. Some have been taught not to respect women as much as they respect men. There are so many complex reasons for poor behaviour in schools, and schools need to have the tools to deal with them. Putting kids into a sin bin and forgetting about them is a hideous suggestion. Kind of like the 17th century assumption that criminals were criminals and not worth rehabilitating.

Brycie Sat 27-Oct-12 18:43:04

I'm not really coming across that way at all grin but there you are. Poor behaviour shouldn't be allowed to disrupt others' learning. That should be a core principle; what you do about it is up for debate. Leaving them to be disruptive in class shouldn't be an option. Unless you don't care about the other kids. Do you?

EvilTwins Sat 27-Oct-12 18:45:12

That's bollocks. So-called "soft" teachers don't choose the disruptive kids over the non-disruptive kids. They often can't cope, and, IMO, need either support to make rapid improvement or need to move on to a different job. Soft (poor, call it what you like) teachers cause damage, and it's no fun for the kids or for those of us who are left to pick up the pieces. Don't get me wrong, I'm not advocating allowing teachers who can't manage classrooms to continue causing damage. The "naughty kids can go to hell" attitude is vile, though, and anyone who truly believes that they can think and behave like that has no place in a school. OFSTED would certainly spot it.

Brycie Sat 27-Oct-12 18:46:55

Well they are if they're leaving them in class together. And if they want to have them removed and management won't help, then management are choosing the disruptive children over the non-disruptive children. You can't have it both ways.

Bollocks is quite rude by the way.

EvilTwins Sat 27-Oct-12 18:47:52

Kids don't disrupt in my classroom. wink

I provide fun, engaging lessons and often the naughty kids do well in my subject because it is creative and they don't have to do much writing.

If there is disruption, then my school has a very effective system for dealing with it.

I care for all the kids I teach. It's part of the job. The day I stop caring is the day I resign.

Brycie Sat 27-Oct-12 18:49:15

What happens in your classroom isn't really relevant to whether disruptive children should be allowed to stay in class.

You sound unutterbly pi.

Arisbottle Sat 27-Oct-12 18:52:59

Surely if children are not being disruptive they should stay in ETs lessons . Seems rather sensible to me

rabbitstew Sat 27-Oct-12 18:54:10

What counts as disruptive these days?

Brycie Sat 27-Oct-12 18:55:43

Why not create a disruptors classroom where the only subjects ever taught are maths and english. As soon as they disrupt they're out and learning maths or english somewhere. If they're repeatedly disruptive they miss design technology or music or something they like. At least they're still learning necessary stuff while they're out of hte class room.

EvilTwins Sat 27-Oct-12 18:55:47

You asked my opinion. I gave it. The issue goes much deeper than whether disruptive kids should be able to stay in class. A well-planned, engaging lesson should stamp out a lot of disruption because the kids should want to be in the room, learning. Beyond that, schools need robust systems to deal with disruption. We use partner classes. It's usually enough. So a kid from one class is taken and put in another class. The disruption rarely continues when the child is away from his/her immediate peers. If the disruption does continue, the child then goes to SLT. Any child removed from a lesson, whether to a partner class or to SLT gets a detention after school the same day.

Do I sound pi? Good job I read Malory Towers as a child, otherwise I'd have no idea what you mean.

EvilTwins Sat 27-Oct-12 18:57:14

Genus, Brycie - make Maths and English a punishment. Please tell me you don't work in education.

Brycie Sat 27-Oct-12 18:58:50

"The issue goes much deeper than whether disruptive kids should be able to stay in class"

no it doesn't, really.

I've read a thread about a week ago where a teacher described (using colourful language) exactly how engaging and creative her lesson plan was and how the children were behaving appalling despite all her efforts. It's easy for you. You don't have to teach something tedious. Why do you think you have the right to lecture those who teach more difficult subjects than you do, in terms of maintaining student interest? Comes across as a bit ignorant.

EvilTwins Sat 27-Oct-12 18:59:46

Are you a teacher?

Brycie Sat 27-Oct-12 19:00:04

It's not a punishment. Missing the creative non academic stuff they like is a punishment. Being taken out of the classroom is a pragmatic move. It's also pragmatic to teach them something useful while they're out of the classroom. What do you want to do. Give them playdough?

EvilTwins Sat 27-Oct-12 19:00:43

So taking them out of GCSE drama or music because they can't behave in maths is a solution? hmm

Brycie Sat 27-Oct-12 19:00:59

No - why are you even arguing if you agree that disruptive children should be taken out of class?

Brycie Sat 27-Oct-12 19:02:26

Yes definitely, for persistent offenders. Gasp faint shock horror. Missing drama? oh my gaaaaaaaaaaad

Phineyj Sat 27-Oct-12 19:02:27

often the naughty kids do well in my subject because it is creative and they don't have to do much writing Well, that's nice for you and them, EvilTwins but I take it you understand that teachers teaching subjects where writing is required - and exams can't be passed without it - probably have a rather rougher time with those same kids? Writing is not really optional in our type of education system!

TheOriginalSteamingNit Sat 27-Oct-12 19:02:28

And where do you put them when you've taken them out of the classroom? For how long, and to what end?

ravenAK Sat 27-Oct-12 19:03:33

Schools usually have measures such as an Isolation Unit (basically a very boring, remote classroom staffed by a Behaviour Manager, where kids who have been removed from lessons can get on with work set by their usual teachers).

We usually have 2-6 students in Iso. Most of them are there for truancy or post-exclusion, rather than as a result of disruptive classrom behaviour.

We don't have a great deal of disruptive behaviour, although the place was a bloody madhouse ten years ago.

What's changed?

We got a 'satisfactory' from Ofsted for teaching & learning - they said that much of the teaching was outdated, dull & complacent.

In the subsequent perfect storm of teacher-kicking by the SLG, many of us pointed out how unsupported we were by them - behaviour management consisted of sending a 'good' student to the front office to say that there was a riot in room 24 & could one of the SLG come, please?

More often than not, no-one did.

We now have 'outstanding' teaching & a behaviour policy, including an 'on call' system which is actually followed, so the kids know that being a dick in lessons will result in a day staring at the wall & filling in worksheets in the Iso.

But most importantly, the teaching is now far far better, & the kids don't misbehave because the lessons are worthwhile.

I'm not saying it's easy - it took us a few years - but it isn't rocket science, it doesn't require draconian new sanctions, & it was never down to teachers being thick...

Brycie Sat 27-Oct-12 19:03:58

Nit, I said create a classroom where disruptive children learn core subjects. Eviltwins said put them in a different classroom which is said to makes them stop being disruptive - a good idea, I assume it usually works.

rabbitstew Sat 27-Oct-12 19:04:15

Well, until we do have teachers who can make quadratic equations exciting, what is supposed to be done about disruptive pupils? Tbh, I don't want my children's lessons disrupted by them - but then I still don't know what counts as disruptive... You're all making me very concerned about what awaits my children in secondary education!

Brycie Sat 27-Oct-12 19:05:03

"We now have 'outstanding' teaching & a behaviour policy, including an 'on call' system which is actually followed, so the kids know that being a dick in lessons will result in a day staring at the wall & filling in worksheets in the Iso.

But most importantly, the teaching is now far far better, & the kids don't misbehave because the lessons are worthwhile."

This all seems very good.

EvilTwins Sat 27-Oct-12 19:05:17

We're making different point, though, aren't we? You think a disruptive child should be taken out of class full stop. I recognise that a child who behaves disruptively should be removed for the rest of the lesson (with work to complete). Next lesson, clean slate.

And since you're not a teacher, let me explain it. Classroom management starts with well-planned, engaging lessons, which are possible no matter how dry the subject matter. If the students are engaged, they are less likely to disrupt. And it is far more complex than you give it credit for. Kids aren't just naughty or not naughty.

rabbitstew Sat 27-Oct-12 19:06:39

Ah - isolation unit. Isn't that similar to stopping them doing drama and music?

ravenAK Sat 27-Oct-12 19:06:56

Could've saved myself a lengthy rant there, EvilTwins.

What you said. All of it. grin

Brycie Sat 27-Oct-12 19:07:34

Eviltwins, it doesn't matter what you say about classroom management starting with engaging lessons etc etc. Plainly there are very many teachers who can't manage the appalling behaviour with fabulous lesson planning. What do you want to do - sack them? Or until this generation dies, just leave the children to put up with the disruption?

So in the meantime you need something like this "iso unit" that raven describes.

rabbitstew Sat 27-Oct-12 19:07:57

Will there be work already planned for the children to be getting on with when they are removed from the lesson and sent to the isolation unit?

Brycie Sat 27-Oct-12 19:09:22

"I recognise that a child who behaves disruptively should be removed for the rest of the lesson (with work to complete). Next lesson, clean slate. "

Well the disruption will just go on and on then quite possibly. There needs to be something unpleasant (staring at the wall, raven suggests) to stop them doing it next time.

EvilTwins Sat 27-Oct-12 19:09:24

Missing drama when it is a GCSE is serious. Students have to be in lessons to be able to pass the course.

My point is the same as Raven's. if the students are engaged, they are far less likely to disrupt. And a talented teacher can make the driest of subjects interesting. I am lucky. I teach Performing Arts, which most kids enjoy.

Brycie Sat 27-Oct-12 19:09:53

Rabbitstew - they should have core subject lessons or work from the class to be done quietly.

ravenAK Sat 27-Oct-12 19:10:48

Not quite, rabbitstew - you do a day in it if you've behaved appallingly/truanted/been excluded. So yes, you might miss drama or whatever if it happened to be on your timetable that day, but I doubt any teacher's going to advocate 'John's awful in Maths but lovely in Drama, let's make him spend his Drama lessons doing Maths in the Iso'!

That would be a level of nuts beyond even the Govian.

Brycie Sat 27-Oct-12 19:11:46

Missing vital maths teacher because somebody's being disruptive. Students have to understand and hear whats said in lessons to be able to pass the course.

Your point is NOT the same as ravens - unless you want children removed from a class and staring at the wall for a day.

Brycie Sat 27-Oct-12 19:12:00

Missing vital maths "teaching"

EvilTwins Sat 27-Oct-12 19:12:38

Brycie, Raven isn't saying that kids go to isolation and stay there. Her system is similar to mine- when I say the students "go to SLT", that's what it is- isolation.

ravenAK Sat 27-Oct-12 19:13:36

& re: work being set - I get an email 'John's in the Iso tomorrow, please send work' from the Behaviour Manager.

I email her back some worksheets or whatever, as do the other 5 teachers who would normally teach him that day.

They also have a bank of revision booklets for each subject, so if I forget, they can say 'Right, English - raven hasn't set any work, so you're working through this...'

Brycie Sat 27-Oct-12 19:14:20

Yes, she is, and she's also saying the idea of missing maths but not drama is "nuts".

I mean, think what you think, but don't pretend it's what someone else thinks.

Brycie Sat 27-Oct-12 19:16:15

"So yes, you might miss drama or whatever if it happened to be on your timetable that day, but I doubt any teacher's going to advocate 'John's awful in Maths but lovely in Drama, let's make him spend his Drama lessons doing Maths in the Iso'!"

Oh I see what she is saying I misread. I therefore disagree with both of you. Otherwise the kid is just going to think, I hate maths, but I can get out of it and just do drama anyway which I like totally love. Win win.

EvilTwins Sat 27-Oct-12 19:17:00

Raven- do kids go to isolation and stay there? Or is it a fixed period, which is what is it in my school? (I know the answer, by the way, this is for Brycie's benefit) Are we talking about the same thing?

Brycie, you are suggesting that kids should be removed for long periods of time, unless I am totally misunderstanding you.

rabbitstew Sat 27-Oct-12 19:17:24

So, are the children in the isolation units having to teach themselves or fall behind whilst in the isolation units?

Arisbottle Sat 27-Oct-12 19:18:16

One teacher cannot turn behaviour around, unless they are amazing . I suspect ET is a much better classroom manager than me, most of us are as good as our back up. Most of my classes behave because they know that the school is a strong team rather than teachers working in isolation .

I have two difficult classes currently , I plan interesting and pacy lessons for these classes but there is always another option ready, usually bookwork incase someone has to be removed . Each of our faculties has an emergency timetable . Basically we know who has an empty class or an easy one and they are buddied up with someone who has a tough class . Therefore if students do not respond to sanctions and warnings they can be removed . There is also a member of SMT on call every lesson , so if students cannot be placed elsewhere they can be escorted away by a senior member of staff,

If a student goes from lesson to lesson causing chaos they will be educated in isolation for a period of time . If they cannot return to the classroom after intensive input from the behaviour team whilst in isolation they will be excluded .

rabbitstew Sat 27-Oct-12 19:18:23

ie do the worksheets relate to what was being taught in the lesson they were sent out of, so that they have to read up on what they missed, themselves?

rabbitstew Sat 27-Oct-12 19:20:50

As well as helping teachers who have to cope with particularly tough classes, do schools give thought to ensuring it isn't always the same children who end up in the tough classes when they aren't disruptive children themselves?

Brycie Sat 27-Oct-12 19:23:07

It's alright evil I can read.

For your benefit:

"We now have 'outstanding' teaching & a behaviour policy, including an 'on call' system which is actually followed, so the kids know that being a dick in lessons will result in a day staring at the wall & filling in worksheets in the Iso"

Arisbottle Sat 27-Oct-12 19:23:33

I have a bank of worksheets and book lessons that meet the same objectives as my lessons , therefore if students are removed or absent they can keep up. If they are sent to work elsewhere they would take the work with them

EvilTwins Sat 27-Oct-12 19:24:04

rabbitstew, in my school, teachers have to provide work which is related to the lesson the student is missing. They are supervised, but not necessarily "taught". If they go to a partner class, that teacher has a class anyway, which is highly likely to be a different subject and/or year group and if they're with SLT (ie in isolation), then they will be supervised, potentially along with one or more other students, so no, not taught.

rabbitstew Sat 27-Oct-12 19:25:59

Do isolation units just contain the problem, or do they work to convince some children that they would be better off behaving in class?

EvilTwins Sat 27-Oct-12 19:27:17

Is that what you're suggesting as well, though, Brycie? You seem to think that disruptive students should be out of lessons for much longer than a day.

Brycie Sat 27-Oct-12 19:28:37

confused

I thought you agreed with her? Do you not?

Raven says it works, along with better teaching. No reason to think it wouldn't work if the better teaching was not in place. And unless you're suggesting sacking teachers...?

Brycie Sat 27-Oct-12 19:29:47

Much longer than a day? Where did you get that from? You're just making things up I haven't said. Why do you feel the need to do that?

rabbitstew Sat 27-Oct-12 19:29:52

I got the impression teachers got squeezed out, not sacked.

Brycie Sat 27-Oct-12 19:30:25

They rarely get sacked I think.

EvilTwins Sat 27-Oct-12 19:32:46

I do agree with Raven. Better teaching means less disruption. It's neither rocket science nor a big secret. I said up thread that I think that poor teachers either need the support to improve rapidly or the support to realise they are in the wrong job. It's very difficult for both the student and those teachers who are left to pick up the pieces when poor teaching is allowed to perpetuate. Often it's a case of not caring enough. I teach with two colleagues who make no secret of the fact that they have no aspirations to be better than satisfactory. That makes things very difficult.

Arisbottle Sat 27-Oct-12 19:33:00

Some of ours will be out for few lessons , some a day and others much longer.

For some students they need a short sharp shock and can go back quite quickly , others need some intensive work

EvilTwins Sat 27-Oct-12 19:34:00

Not making things up, just misunderstanding. So you do agree with Raven (and therefore with me?) confused

Brycie Sat 27-Oct-12 19:34:58

In that case you agree with me.

Better teaching means nothing for the child being disrupted TODAY.

(or a week on Monday)

Brycie Sat 27-Oct-12 19:36:15

Oh ET you totally changed your mind. I said at the beginnign take children out, keep them out, make it a deterrent, make them do core work. You laid into me. So give over.

TheMummyLovesAScareFest Sat 27-Oct-12 19:42:43

if you get GCSE English and Maths then do a degree in your subject+pgce or a BA with QTS surely you're qualified. i'd agree that you need to acieve equal or higher than the level you will teach in that subject and have a teaching qualification but what more can you expect?

rabbitstew Sat 27-Oct-12 19:43:42

So, a lot of teachers leave teaching because they either aren't good enough or don't have good headteachers and senior management to support them, or even worse, suffer from both problems? Or even with good management, some kids are just so antisocial that they shouldn't be in mainstream schools, even in isolation units?

EvilTwins Sat 27-Oct-12 19:45:39

Exactly. Take them out, keep them out.

IF (big IF- disruption is kept to a minimum by good teaching) kids disrupt, they are out for the rest of that hour. After school detention same day. Next lesson, clean slate. For something beyond disruption (swearing, truanting) they do a day in isolation. At no point have I agreed with your barking idea that they should have to do core lessons instead of others. That achieves literally nothing. I do not get to use "he missed lessons for disruptive behaviour in Science during which time he had to do extra maths" as a reason for a student missing his GCSE target grade.

Brycie, you're not a teacher. You don't fully understand how it all works, nor should you be expected to. So stop making out that you do.

EvilTwins Sat 27-Oct-12 19:46:40

Take them out,keep them out was your view, not mine.

Brycie Sat 27-Oct-12 19:47:47

I'm doing pretty well so far for not being a teacher. You've agreed with most of what I've said, except for making sure they study maths and English when out of the classroom.

Brycie Sat 27-Oct-12 19:48:29

You said you agreed with Raven who told us that take them out, keep them out works.

Brycie Sat 27-Oct-12 19:50:33

And just to remind you, this is what I said:

"As soon as they disrupt they're out and learning maths or english somewhere. If they're repeatedly disruptive they miss design technology or music or something they like. At least they're still learning necessary stuff while they're out of hte class room."

So there's no more "misunderstanding".

EvilTwins Sat 27-Oct-12 19:50:49

Keep them out for the rest of the lesson. I thought you disagreed with that? Am I misunderstanding? I don't think it should need to go further than that. Earlier on you certainly seemed to be implying that disruptive kids should be removed from school completely and you didn't care what happened to them.

EvilTwins Sat 27-Oct-12 19:52:08

See your post at 18:24

Brycie Sat 27-Oct-12 19:52:37

"Earlier on you certainly seemed to be implying that disruptive kids should be removed from school completely and you didn't care what happened to them."

May I quote you? "Bollocks". I specifically said I disagreed with the "don't care" approach.

You said you agreed with RAven. Who approves keeping them out for the day staring at the wall or doing worksheets.

So you know, who cares what you think as you don't seem to know yourself.

Brycie Sat 27-Oct-12 19:54:46

You mean this one:

"Yes I care what happens to the "excluded" but not at the cost of the children who want to learn. The cost is too high to keep them in class. What happens to the excluded is a separate issue to be dealt with once they are no longer stopping other children making the best of their education. "

Which bit of that says I don't care about the children? Help me out here.

Arisbottle Sat 27-Oct-12 19:56:37

I thought it was Ronaldo who saud he did not care about difficult pupils.

Brycie was more measured, I think.

Brycie Sat 27-Oct-12 19:57:29

"Apart from the don't care comment I agree with what a lot of Ronaldo says. "

maybe it was this one?

Do I have to copy and paste all my posts to prevent any more deliberate misunderstanding?

Brycie Sat 27-Oct-12 19:58:48

Thanks Arisbottle. You are very calm in all of this. I think my sole purpose in life now is to score points over someone who said I was talking bollocks. It's a tragedy. Very childish indeed.

Arisbottle Sat 27-Oct-12 20:01:11

Brycie , Monday marks the start of half term, there is a lot to be calm about. grin

Brycie Sat 27-Oct-12 20:03:39

Enjoy general wafty calmitude grin

EvilTwins Sat 27-Oct-12 20:05:00

It was the bit about schools having a sin bin so that kids who had been excluded from one place wouldn't get to disrupt in another.

Brycie Sat 27-Oct-12 20:06:02

Oh do excuse me. Perhaps if I'd called it an Iso unit like raven you would have agreed with me hmm

Arisbottle Sat 27-Oct-12 20:08:35

But part of the remit of an isolation unit is to stop students disrupting lessons.

rabbitstew Sat 27-Oct-12 20:13:07

Well, when you all "talk" so fast, it is hard to remember who said what! grin

Brycie Sat 27-Oct-12 20:15:08

I'm just being annoying rabbit - you are asking sensible questions grin

EvilTwins Sat 27-Oct-12 20:24:40

You said, Brycie, that moving students to other schools was pointless. That schools should have a sin bin in which to put them. Since moving a child to another school would generally happen in the case of a permanent exclusion, which is what was being discussed at the time, IIRC, it appeared that your "sin bin" solution was also being offered as a permanent one. My "isolation" is used for a day at a time. Partner classes for an hour at a time. Not as a permanent alternative to a student's timetable.

Brycie Sat 27-Oct-12 20:26:40

It IS pointless. I then suggested having a sin bin/iso unit inside the school. What's contradictory here?

"My "isolation" is used for a day at a time."

A whole day at a time? So possibly missing those essential Drama classes then? Not "next lesson clean slate"?

EvilTwins Sat 27-Oct-12 21:00:17

As I said, it depends. If a student disrupts my lesson, he/she would go to a partner class, with work, for the rest of that hour, then on to their next lesson as normal (usually after a brief conversation with me). They would then be put in after school detention that day (which does involve staring at the wall for an hour). If a child is in trouble for something else, they may be put in isolation for a full day. Yes, they miss my lesson, which is a pain. I have to provide work though.

Permanent exclusion, which involves a child moving to a new school, is a whole different game. Keeping them in the original school, but in an isolation unit, is unviable. For a start, staffing an isolation unit isn't something all schools can do. At mine, the SLT do it on a rota, but it means the isolation "room" moves with the staffing- students sit at a table outside the office of the person on duty. This is not a solution for more than a day. Your initial mention of a "sin bin" was as an alternative to moving a disruptive child to another school. I maintain that it wouldn't work. The very term "sin bin" got my hackles up. You're talking about children.

EvilTwins Sat 27-Oct-12 21:05:07

And actually, moving students to alternative schools can, and does work. A managed move can give a student the new start they need. I have two in my year 10 class who came to us on managed moves from elsewhere. Both have had lots of support from our learning support dept, and have half-termly reviews. Both are doing well. A fresh start can make a difference.

Abra1d Sat 27-Oct-12 21:15:34

'6, I continue to train in my subject and it's pedagogy.'

Underwater . . .? You can see what is wrong with the above sentence, can't you?

ravenAK Sat 27-Oct-12 21:29:52

Sorry, I have been setting fire to stuff, with my own children.

I feel so much less stressed as a result that it's quite likely my BP is no longer in 'stroke country' as it was described by the nurse measuring it yesterday! (Dentalphobic teacher on the last day of term having bp measured in a dental surgery = crazy spike.)

But to clarify, we use isolation as a short term sanction (1 day, usually) for students who have fucked up. They have truanted or kicked off massively in a lesson, or are returning from fixed term exclusion.

It's an airlock, really - sort your head out with a day of peace, quiet (& being bored out of your skull/missing your mates). Then re-enter normal lessons.

It certainly isn't intended to address long term behaviour issues - although the nature of it is that some students do find themselves in there repeatedly.

But it provides thinking time for the student (& yes, sometimes, respite for their group - I find it's often really effective if a kid is told by their peers '...actually we had a great English lesson yesterday, without you messing it up').

Kids who really, really cannot be in lessons without consistently causing problems are not dealt with by the Iso unit. They have behaviour support (often 1-1 but cuts are making this less frequent) or alternative provision is made.

Ronaldo Sun 28-Oct-12 08:10:24

I see you have all moved on somewhat since yesterday and are now into consensus politics. I am shocked that you are all accepting that pupils should remain in school when they are known disruptive elements. It’s Ok if they are temporarily removed. Then they have to be provided with work (so additional workload on the teacher who needs two sets of lessons - one for the class and one to send off to isolation/sin bin/ removals - whatever you want to call it).

As a parent now rather than a teacher I find that a poor solution. It means that my DS may be free from disruption just some of the time. It doesn’t take the problem out of school.

As a teacher I know that removals are a limited solution. The disruptive ones are still there and they still mix with the pupils and they still exert the influence by model - that it’s OK to be disruptive and as is often the case with young people, they copy this because they see it has little consequence.

Besides many of those pupils removed on an hourly/ daily/ weekly basis simply see the removal as a reward. How many times have I seen kids kicking off even before the lesson begins so they would "get out"? That isn’t because lessons were poorly constructed and didn’t "engage" (more educspeak cl*p tr*p) . The teacher never gets a chance to teach.

What has happened here to parents being dealt with? If your child comes to school to disrupt then you should be responsible for having that child at home and look after him/her. Sorry if that inconveniences either your coffee morning, your heroin fix or your work.

There is a creeping acceptance that this behaviour is acceptable and is a result of teaching somehow. Well it’s not is it? If you are my age (and of course few of you are!) you will know that such behaviour was almost unheard of even in the worst Secondary Modern school bottom sets, yet the lessons were far more boring ("didn’t engage"), the teachers did not need removals to come round. We complied - even down to the biggest bruiser. If there was one who stepped out of line they were expelled and parents had to find them some alternative NOT THE SCHOOL.

That is still true in private schools today.

So, standards are eroded and parents of the 66% together with the teachers in state schools are accepting it. That’s the problem.

It isn’t worth debating really. But none of this will be sorted by making basic skills tests "harder". Those address a "problem" that doesn’t exist really IMHO.

rabbitstew Sun 28-Oct-12 08:57:06

But what did happen to children in the past who were booted out of their state schools but still of compulsory school age?... And anyway, I was under the impression that not all children were booted out of school in the past and that caning a child in front of all the other children in assembly was considered an acceptable way of dealing with the problem. And sorry, but as a parent, I do not consider that particularly acceptable behaviour on the part of the teachers, either.

marriedinwhite Sun 28-Oct-12 09:03:45

Permanent exclusion should be easier; if it were our dd would still be at an exceptionally good comprehensive. If a child engages in unlawful behaviours such as assault, intimidation, pyromania, drug taking on school premises head should have the power to invoke permanent exclusion quickly. Serious consequences for serious deeds would be taken seriously and would return authority to schools. I believe it would quickly ensure that those liable to less serious deeds and continual low and higher level disruption would be more mindful if heads could take action proportionate to the level of the rule breaking.

The lack of boundaries has eroded society, achievement and happiness at school for many many children. I shall respect the teaching profession when it stops making excuses for poor or unlawful behaviour. Such behaviour is unacceptable and a lack of consequences at school and the building of the belief that the perpetrator will always get away with it because (of background or behavioural difficulties) will not help them or the rest of our children in the longer term.

Units with the specialist knowledge to deal with those children need to be introduced and I for one would be happy to pay more tax in order to fund them. The present situation has reached crisis point.

Arisbottle Sun 28-Oct-12 09:13:29

As a teacher it is your duty to differentiate for your pupils . It is hardly a huge task to use a textbook or have the odd worksheet ready.

If the removal is followed by a sanction it should not be seen as a reward. I usually just have to say to someone playing up in my class " if that continues you will be removed " and they back down. If I had to have the same pupil removed from my class lesson after lesson it would be clear that a more long term solution was needed. Whether that would be a permanent removal from my lesson, a longer removal from all lessons, an exclusion or me reflecting on my own behaviour management and teaching would depend on the case.

I think pupils are reluctant to be removed from class because school policy is that if a students removed from class they have a school detention and they have to retake the lesson after school, making sure all of their work is up to date.

I currently have a Key stage 4 class that are quite difficult and that I know many other teachers are struggling with, especially female teachers. As a professional I have accepted that I cannot place all the responsibility at the door of he children and I am currently working on my own behaviour management and and planning. I have been observing colleagues and we have also set up a group of teachers who are working as a group with senior teachers to look at how we teach this difficult group of students. The emphasis is not on blaming the individual teachers but asking as a body of staff what can we do differently .

There may be an impression given that pupils are currently always being removed, in most schools that is just not the case. I teach two of the most difficult classes in the school, one of them is new to me so I am having to lay down expectations, I have not not had to remove one pupil all half term. I have had to in advance arrange for a few pupils to work elsewhere and I have had to set detentions and phone parents.

I don't think that students should remain in school, if after the school has done all that it can, the student refuses to behave as expected and continues to disrupt. As I said earlier, I have recommended that students are permanently excluded and some students have then had to move to a behaviour unit or a different school.

I agree with you, that the harder tests are a red herring.

From reading your posts Ronaldo it is clear that you have had a very painful state school experience in which you were key down by ineffective leadership. That is a real shame, no teacher should feel powerless and ignored and I am not surprised that you feel bitter about that.

Arisbottle Sun 28-Oct-12 09:14:47

I would imagine many schools do permanently exclude for many of those offences, I know that we do.

TheOriginalSteamingNit Sun 28-Oct-12 09:23:19

Ronald's would get on awfully well with Jabed.

Arisbottle Sun 28-Oct-12 09:23:58

Ronaldo is Jabed, he has been very open about that

TheOriginalSteamingNit Sun 28-Oct-12 09:24:01

Ronaldo, sorry.

Brycie Sun 28-Oct-12 09:24:18

I'm so tired but I agree with about 80 per cent of what you say Ronaldo.

TheOriginalSteamingNit Sun 28-Oct-12 09:24:59

Oh, missed that! Not accusing of anything murky, I just haven't seen the bit where that was made clear.

Relieved that's at least one fewer person with such opinions than I had feared!

TheOriginalSteamingNit Sun 28-Oct-12 09:26:30

Mind you janoldo must be relieved the basic literacy tests won't apply to old teachers in private schools!

Ronaldo Sun 28-Oct-12 09:35:49

But what did happen to children in the past who were booted out of their state schools but still of compulsory school age?...

I am not really sure. I know they just "disappeared" often. The ones with real problems ( SEN) went to special schools. The ones with serious behavioural issues went to schools for the maladapted ( thats what they were called - its a PRU now) . The other quietly left a 14 quite often. School and LEA turned a blind eye - and often out at work was the best place for them. They did go to work not the dole aswe had jobs back then. The criminal element ended up in Borstal.

I suppose what I am saying is wedidnt have any policy of "inclusion". We had schools to suit all sorts ( which also went along with the policy of selective education.

But what all of that did mean is that even in a rough SM ( like that I attended) you had some chance of learning something without being constantly disrupted.

* And anyway, I was under the impression that not all children were booted out of school in the past and that caning a child in front of all the other children in assembly was considered an acceptable way of dealing with the problem*

Certainly the cane was available but I have never seen or heard of this public display you speak of. It may have been sometime before but not in my educational lifetime (from 1960 - 1973). The only place I saw that wason TV in the "Billy Bunter" programme orsome comedy show with Jimmy Edwards in it (when I was very small) and it always related to public schools like Eton , not my state school. I can only recall a few boys coming back and saying they had receieved the cane - usually for something very big , like throwing chairs around a classroom or being in a fight in the playground. The threat I guess was enough I think. It was common in my promary school for teachers to hit pupils across the had with a ruler - short sharp slap style. But even that only had to be demonstrated once on one child often.

In short , you didnt get the level of poor behaviour we have now at all. Disruptive bahaviour was most often dealt with by kicking pupils out of the class and making them stand outside the door for the lesson. That seemed to work better than "sin bin" and isolation!

But as I said, therewere fewer such kids in a class. It never seemed to cross out minds to misbehave even when bored silly. Swearing was not acceptable either. Maybe because we didnt see the behaviour in others. Bad behaviour is like a cold, it spreads like wildfire through a school

If someone was sent home or reported to parents ( nophones in most homes so no quick call there!) then often parents would give you a whack when you got in and you were told not to go being cheeky at school and causing trouble for you mum/dad. It was shameful and embarrasing to them to be seen as the one with a naughty boy or girl.

And sorry, but as a parent, I do not consider that particularly acceptable behaviour on the part of the teachers, either.

Well as I said , mostly it didnt happen. But we had the threat. Now there is no threat and there is no shame. The shameless society has arrived and is embraced.

There were other things that affected this too. Like teachers could target lessons to suit. They taught what they wanted and what they thought pupils needed to learn - not the NC. We had extensive streaming. Wer had more sports lessons in SM. There were more practical classes too - metalwork, woodowrk and cookery and needlework took up whole mornings or afternoons. Maths and English took up most of the rest of the time in an SM
(for what that is worth to you knowing). It was very much a "practical education" as the 1944 education act dictated. I cant say about grammar schools, I didnt go to one.

It seems to me the NC, RoSLA Comprehensive schools ( much as I dont like selective schools) bigger schools (size) , and inclusion have caused much of the demise. I dont think its any cheaper either and it certainly has not raised standards ofnumeracy and literacy any (probably the opposite)

Ronaldo Sun 28-Oct-12 09:38:51

Mind you janoldo must be relieved the basic literacy tests won't apply to old teachers in private schools!

It doesnt bother me to be honest. But it wont solve the problem.

Arisbottle Sun 28-Oct-12 09:42:11

I can remember weekly public canings when I was at school, I was often the person getting hit. It can't have made much difference because I was getting it so often.

Ronaldo Sun 28-Oct-12 09:43:47

Marriedinwhite Sun 28-Oct-12 09:03:45 , I would agree with everything you say there.

Not sure that is an endorsement worth having given my reputation round here. Sorry smile

Arisbottle Sun 28-Oct-12 09:45:06

Ronaldo I suspect a lot of MN agree with you , I don't think many teachers would but many others would and do.

Brycie Sun 28-Oct-12 09:46:23

I've never seen a public caning (1968-1982)

Brycie Sun 28-Oct-12 09:47:20

Arisbottle that sounds highly ambiguous!

Brycie Sun 28-Oct-12 09:48:20

The unions object to efforts to improve things, to getting rid of bad teachers, to improved numeracy and literacy tests, I don't even think they represent most teachers any more but I might wrong about that.

Ronaldo Sun 28-Oct-12 09:59:13

TOSN - My log in became inoperable and I couldnt get a passwordre set even though I sent for one so re registered and I said so at the time. It was a few days ago (maybe a week?).

Arisbottle Sun 28-Oct-12 10:00:29

What sounds ambiguous?
Our canings stopped when corporal punishment was outlawed. Before then every assembly would begin with a caning

EvilTwins Sun 28-Oct-12 10:01:59

Thank goodness that Ronaldo is Jabed. I thought there were two of them.

The unions is an interesting point. I used to be very pro-union. Growing up, my parents were both teachers and my dad was high up with one of the unions. I saw how hard he worked to maintain and improve working conditions. I had a lot of respect for those who were standing up to the government and I believe that my working conditions now are vastly improved (compared to how they might have been) as a result. However, I received my monthly union magazine yesterday and it made me angry. It's so negative. I don't understand why the union wants struggling teachers to remain in post. I don't understand the objection to more stringent tests (though I do get the point about the irony of these tests when one considers Gove's plan to let anyone be a teacher). I certainly no longer think that my union speaks on my behalf.

Ronaldo Sun 28-Oct-12 10:05:17

The other thing that might be interesting to most is that I was taught in SM in a class of over 40 - about 43 I think there were. That was not unual. Which just shows that you can teach very large classes when you do not have disruptive pupils in them.

Of course it also means there was no room to throw a chair across a room! We were jammed in like sardines in a tin. smile I dont want to see that return.

A few of the other standards wouldnt come amiss though - and I am not convinced by testing and exams and all that either.
I am convinced we need to use expulsion more.

In my last school all the pupils loved coming to school but very few wanted to do lessons. Thats why I have said that isolation - what isolation? - was a reward for most of them. They used to troop off there happlily when they managed to get out of class.

I am glad I am out of that system. I dont want my DS in it either.

mrz Sun 28-Oct-12 10:34:08

In one of your other threads you described the horror of your state education jabed ...which is true?

Ronaldo Sun 28-Oct-12 10:41:17

In one of your other threads you described the horror of your state education jabed ...which is true?

Both! From my personal point of view it was horrific mainly because I was in the wrong school for me. It did not meet my academic needs. I foundmyself in classes which were far too basic for me. I found myself in a culture ( w/c) which did not reflect my background. It was bloody awful.

But from the point of view of the school meeting the needs of the majority of pupils in it and providing a basic education in a calm , ordered and disciplined environment - It worked.

rabbitstew Sun 28-Oct-12 10:47:47

My parents very graphically described to me the public canings that went on in the schools they attended (state and private sector). Part of the point of them appeared to be that all the other children at the very least HEARD the punishment and the crying of the child concerned, and preferably saw it, in addition. I don't want my children going to a school where any form of assault is tolerated - that applies just as much to the behaviour of the other children as it does to the teachers. If many teachers are being assaulted and treated with such a lack of respect these days, then that is indicative of schools where the children are suffering, too.

mrz Sun 28-Oct-12 11:01:17

I wonder how many other children in the class were also failed jabed

Ronaldo Sun 28-Oct-12 11:22:22

I wonder how many other children in the class were also failed jabed

At a guesstimate around 10% I would think - so in a class of 43 that would be about another four? Yes, I could probably name them even. They all were similar to me - passed the 11+ but consigned to SM. Maybe not so fish out of water as I was as they did share that w/c culture as I recall. One nice girl passed the 11+ but wassent to my SM because her dad died and she had to leave school at 15. So you see there were social deprivation issues then but no one seemed to use them as a kick off point. Of all of us only I went to university.

But that isnt what this thread is about. This thread is about teachers skills tests although its moved from that. Its about behaviourand standards in classrooms.

Whilst I may not be in favour of the old SM system in some ways, the schools were well ordered and children well behaved in them. That meant that despite all teachers could teach ( even if they were pretty poor teachers with a low skill base) and the most children could learn.

I dont think the SM failed the lower ability pupils as often as now btw. Children with difficulties were identified and removed to special schools which could help them. I can think of a couple of such pupils with me who managedto learn some basic skills and held down jobs after leaving - all because they got the specialist teaching they needed.

Ronaldo Sun 28-Oct-12 11:24:55

sorry my computer is still rolling words together and mis reading keys despite my trying to edit and change them.

Ronaldo Sun 28-Oct-12 11:47:57

mrz - if you want an argument for the selective education system I have just gven it you. Overall the 11+ selects quitewell statistically. It selects those most likely to benefit from an academic education.

Most of those "fails" are boarderline. If the sstem had a failing itslef it was that there were never enough places for those who should have been offered the grammar school education and selection was done on an ad hoc basis sometimes. I passed the 11+ buiit moved areas and was not eleible to be considered for a place in the new area as the places had been allocated.

One of the big arguments has always been that people like me can do well anywhere and so it doesnt matter. Personal tragedy is accepatable statistically.

Are you suggesting therefore that we should accept poor behaviour in classes because the most able will be Ok anyway and personal tragedies of those who suffer ( maybe some 50% of all pupils) are acceptable for the equality of all?

Thats assuming there is some connection between your comment /question to me and this issue of behaviour we have been discussing.

mrz Sun 28-Oct-12 11:52:08

no jabed I don't want an argument about the selective school system ...I'm just pointing out that your perception of how successful classes of 40+ (where you yourself were failed badly) might not be accurate.

mrz Sun 28-Oct-12 11:54:47

My primary school had a year group of 3 and I couldn't say how effective it was for the other two pupils just that it worked for me. The same with my grammar school class of 30 ...

Ronaldo Sun 28-Oct-12 12:06:06

no jabed I don't want an argument about the selective school system ...I'm just pointing out that your perception of how successful classes of 40+ (where you yourself were failed badly) might not be accurate

I was not making an argument for their success in any educational sense. I was just suggesting that despite their size those classes displayed an order and discipline which facilitated more learning ( and I think they did allow more teaching than now and overall pupils were better educated than now despite all)

And you note your grammar school class had 30 in it - how many of them were failed themn mez? Statistically given the error rate in the 11+ selection it should be 10% - so 3? Can you identify them to yourself?

Were those grammar school classes chaotic? I bet not somehow. Was thereany real poor behaviour there? I bet not somehow. So why do we feel its OK to have these disruptive elements in school now?

mrz Sun 28-Oct-12 12:10:56

jabed my point is I don't know how many were failed by my school.

Yes some of the classes were chaotic with poor behaviour ... I clearly recall one boy bouncing a cricket ball off the chalk board (narrowly missing the teacher's head) as the teacher turned his back to write for example

LaVolcan Sun 28-Oct-12 12:21:44

One thing I don't think people have addressed is the way girls were pushed into teaching as a career, regardless of whether they were suitable or not.

I can't remember when it became an all graduate profession and A levels were required, but it used to be possible to train to teach with 5 O levels. (Not that having A levels necessarily made for better teachers in the way that having a first class degree doesn't necessarily equip one to teach successfully.) The problem was, that it became an easy option for all too many. I don't doubt that in practice such people have long been weeded out of teaching, but I suspect that Gove still thinks that some non too bright ones still drift into teaching - since he seems to be about 30 years behind the times.

Ronaldo Sun 28-Oct-12 12:23:11

Yes some of the classes were chaotic with poor behaviour ... I clearly recall one boy bouncing a cricket ball off the chalk board (narrowly missing the teacher's head) as the teacher turned his back to write for example

Now that is interesting because it opens up another aspect of the behaviour issue.

Was that boy in your grammar school class misplaced? Had he received my education would he have been so disruptive? I do believe that a lot of problems we have in classrooms are at root a result of the NC . Too often teachers are blamed for not teaching appropriate to the students needs but it isnt the teachers who are at fault its the actual prescription of what has to be taught.

An academic curriculum such as that of the NC is probably not suitable for the majoriity of students and force feeding it can explain a lot of things including the high levels of low level ( if you follow that) disruption these days.

In my school ( common with most semi selective independents) we do not follow the NC unless it suits us and the pupils. There is no low level disruption. Similarly my old SM did not have to follow a NC - yeachers taught what they felt appropriate to the classes. Again no low level disruption. Now it is only a correlation but I do feel its part of the issue.

mrz Sun 28-Oct-12 12:38:09

No he wasn't misplaced jabed and certainly he wasn't alone in his behaviour.
He is now a successful lawyer.

Ronaldo Sun 28-Oct-12 13:10:29

so why was he so disruptive then mrz? If you know that is?

mrz Sun 28-Oct-12 13:12:01

He saw some teachers as weak and he was a bully

Ronaldo Sun 28-Oct-12 13:31:14

LaVolcan - the issue of teacher training has long been a mess and I think still is.

When I was a lad there was a distinct divide in many grammar schools ( and to an extent this still exists in education now). Those who were most able would go to university. Those who were not were allocated teacher training. That was after the bunch who left at 16 with little or no O levels were off scene. Of course there wereexceptions - some left with good clutches of O levels. Others came from SM and wereautomatically lumped intoteacher training groups ( I was one and it was the only time in my life I rebelled).

Equally for many years teacher training was not graduate. Again when I was taking A levels it was a certificate course and those who did it needed one A level usually but 5 O levels was still the entry requirement.

Then there were graduates who could enter teaching without any further qualifications. Those graduates and the cert eds were all given QTS if they were working in schools in 1989 and had started teaching before that.

Strange as it may seem 5 O levels including maths and English language is still on the statute books as the entry qualification for teaching. Variations in statutory instruments have not changed it despite the "all graduate" thing. .

It is a muggers buddle . Quite how you sort it out, I dont know. Those teachers who have a cert ed these days would have to be around my age or maybe a couple of years younger or possibly even more .... I am not sure exactly when Cert Ed was were phased out. It was phased and that is the problem. In some colleges it may have carried on longer than in others. I will take a guess - some of those old cogers who should have been " weeded out" according to you may be around 54+ now.

There was a programme to upgrade them to degrees in the 1980's but it was a further course and many didnt bother to take it. Some got OU degrees. Latterly some of the old teaching colleges have actually awarded without further ado a degree to those with that old cert ed - so if you have hung around long enough your cert has become a degree and you can apply for the bit of paper.

Over the years things didnt improve.I have net a number of teachers whotell me they never took O levels or GCSE or A levels but they are trained and qualified teachers ( BEd or subject degree and PGCE - QTS). How they did it I dont know. Most were mature entrants to teaching . I guess some kind of access to HE course?

I dont want to generalise about standards though. Some of those old cert eds might knock spots off the more recently graduated! I know several older teachers (around my age) who are not to be tangled with academically or in terms of classroom management.

But it still remains that you can enter ITT at 18 for a B Ed or a BA ( QTS) with lower grades than you can a subject degree.

mrz Sun 28-Oct-12 13:40:42

Actually jabed if you look at entry requirements for some BEd courses you need 300 UCAS points as opposed to 260 on BA courses

Ronaldo Sun 28-Oct-12 13:46:02

Ofcourse it very much depends on the college ( university ) involved. RG univerity are asking AAB for subject degrees. They ask 260 UCAS points for their education schools ( generally) or sometimes they asked for BBC Thats what my students told me last year. They were the ones applying. I havent bothered to look to be honest.

The fact is there are colleges out there for every one in every sub ject if you just take a look around and some even ask 2 E entry.

Ronaldo Sun 28-Oct-12 13:48:03

Should a bully have really been in a grammar school? Was he , as the 1944 act said " would benefit from a grammar school education"?

So he became a lawyer - says it all really.

marriedinwhite Sun 28-Oct-12 13:51:07

>>whispers<< the best, most dedicated and most diligent teacher I ever had was unqualified - biology 1976 - every girl she ever taught over many many years passed.

I also have a close friend who teaches under 8s at a pre-prep who could not teach in a state school because she does not have a maths o'level. She spoken of in hushed tones of adulation by colleagues and parents alike. Her teaching is graded as outstanding and Ofsted described it as inspirational. She doesn't of course teach any maths but then in the private sector she doesn't have to. I think a huge amount of talent and inspiration is lost to our children due to the lack of specialisation from the earliest ages.

teacherwith2kids Sun 28-Oct-12 13:56:17

Don't be silly, jabed - an innate sense of one's own superiority can be a characteristic of a bully and a characteristic of a typoical grammar school child.....

Yellowtip Sun 28-Oct-12 14:04:32

ron I can't see any reason why being a bully should disqualify a child from benefiting from a grammar school education. It's got nothing whatsoever to do with academic abiity.

Nor do I believe that being a bully is a necessary prerequisite for becoming a lawyer.

I thought you previously said that you were a victim of your mother's politics with regard to education? I thought that was the reason you didn't go to the grammar?

teacherwith2kids Sun 28-Oct-12 14:06:52

Going back to the original subject of this thread - I think it's a matter of the right idea for the wrong motive IYSWIM.

All teachers need to have good functional English and Maths skills (not perhaps represented by formal qualifications, but via a straightforward functional test). This is not necesarily just for their in-class teaching - as others have said, an ICT teacher may not need outstanding written English to be a great teacher of programming, equally an inspiring History teacher can, in the class, get away with poor maths. HOWEVER, key 'out of class' activities of teachers - data collection and analysis, report writing etc - DO require high level literacy and maths skills.

Wrong motive - because it seems to be trying to denigrate existing teachers even more.

As a broad statement, I would say that those teachers who have come into teaching as a postgraduate via the PGCE route are 'better educated' and 'brighter' in a broad sense than those who have gone straight from school into a BEd - because they have had to have the qualifications and skills to get a degree first before then training as a teacher. However, I do know some inspirational teachers whose vocation for teaching has been so strong that they would have seen gaining a 'different' degree as a distraction and so have come through the BEd route....

[The most inspirational teacher I have had had no teaching qualifications BUT was a high level nuclear scientist before entering the profession.....]

mrz Sun 28-Oct-12 14:07:14

Well he obviously benefited from a grammar school education as he went to a good university (Russell Group although they can't be too fussy as they accepted me wink )

EvilTwins Sun 28-Oct-12 14:09:28

Jabed's assertions about teacher training are usually lazy and incorrect. You may have been right, several years ago, that BEd had universally lower entry requirements, but I don't believe that to be the case any more. The one student who went from my school to ITT last year needed 320 UCAS points plus experience. She had to go through the most stringent interview process of all my students, and this wasn't even for an RG university. Another girl, who was doing 5 A2s, and predicted to get A or B grades in all of them was turned down for the teaching courses she applied to because her work experience amounted to weekly volunteer work at an After School Club. They successful student had 2 year's worth of weekly volunteer work in a classroom. Primary teaching is one of the most heavily subscribed courses, according to UCAS, and so universities can afford to be picky.

teacherwith2kids Sun 28-Oct-12 14:09:41

(Before I get a flood of teachers saying 'but I came via the BEd route and I'm brilliant' - I should say that the above is my observation and it is of teachers who have qualified relatively recently, not of those of long standing)

teacherwith2kids Sun 28-Oct-12 14:12:42

Thinking more (should do it first, really) I think that one of the issues with teachers who come via the BEd route is not so much one of 'academic ability', just perhaps a very narrow set of experiences? A kind of 'never been out of school' view of the world? And that makes those who have come via the OGCE route, sometimes some years after graduating, seem 'better educated' because they have wider experiences?

mrz Sun 28-Oct-12 14:21:06

BEd students aren't necessarily 18 year olds straight from school teacher, many are mature students with lots of experience behind them, just as PGCE students may have gone straight from A levels into a degree and complete their PGCE age 22 with very narrow experiences.

I think it's too simplistic to say one route into teaching is better or worse than another or even one university is better or worse than another. I believe there is much more to what makes a good (or bad teacher)

EvilTwins Sun 28-Oct-12 14:28:21

I went straight from A Levels to degree to PGCE, qualifying, because of having an August birthday, at the age of 21. Two weeks after my 22nd birthday, I was teaching students who were only 4 years younger than me. Looking back, it was a bizarre thing to have done, but I was always good at it. I can see that I have improved massively as I've got older though, but that's more due to being more relaxed, I think. I was always very diligent, but perhaps spent too much time working when I was younger. Having my own kids has made a difference- I work smarter now, otherwise I would never see my girls, or have any kind of life. I won't pretend that teaching was "all I ever wanted to do", but it suited me from day 1 of the PGCE, and it still does. I work with a variety of colleagues- some have worked in industry, some have always taught. There doesn't seem to be any direct correlation between "outside" experience and good teaching.

teacherwith2kids Sun 28-Oct-12 14:54:23

Mrz and EvilTwins - all good points. A little bit like 'good' schools etc, it will all come down to the individual in the end, much more than one or another route into the profession...

ravenAK Sun 28-Oct-12 15:28:38

I fell into teaching, tbh.

I'd managed to be widowed, bankrupt & homeless within the space of a weekend, so applying for a PGCE seemed like a good idea at the time...

I had a miserable NQT year, & then somehow it all clicked in my second year.

With hindsight, of course, my head was completely f*cked that first year. I was a lousy teacher. Distinctly remember thinking 'Well, I'll give it one more year & if I still can't do it, sod it, I'll quit, sign on, & see how quickly I can drink myself to death'.

I'd've had no bother passing Numeracy & Literacy tests, though. I'm pretty bright academically. But I've never actually needed my maths skills to teach English, or for any of the data-y bits of the job. We have spreadsheets for that!

Ronaldo Sun 28-Oct-12 17:21:42

I thought you previously said that you were a victim of your mother's politics with regard to education? I thought that was the reason you didn't go to the grammar?

You think and think and think - as if there is something inconsistent in what I have said? Well think again and stop trying to play " catch out" b3ecause it wont happen. I am not inconsistent - no more than I have ever said that I came from Devon - you thought. No I said my family used to holiday in North Devon (I asked metabilis where she came from as a result)

I have always said I passed the 11+ but because of a housemove by my parents I ended up in an SM.

My mothers politics were not to do with my 11+ passing or not going to grammar school. That was to do with her refusal to enable me to go to an independent school.

Two different things. Three if you count my correction of your silly undermining comments about Devon.

Ronaldo Sun 28-Oct-12 17:23:45

ron I can't see any reason why being a bully should disqualify a child from benefiting from a grammar school education. It's got nothing whatsoever to do with academic abiity
I would have hoped that blu7llies would be disqualified on the grounds of being unsuitable material - not on academic grounds but never having gone to grammar school I cannot say. It was just my hope. Clearly bullies are most welcome.

rabbitstew Sun 28-Oct-12 17:26:54

Ronaldo - my dbs' experience of an all boys' grammar school was that bullies were most certainly welcome.

rabbitstew Sun 28-Oct-12 17:27:35

Bullies were also welcome at db1's prep school.

mrz Sun 28-Oct-12 17:27:39

The problem is children don't come with labels so until they display "bullying" behaviour they blend in

Ronaldo Sun 28-Oct-12 17:27:50

RG universities are good publicists. Most of them have never been good universities. Take Exeter for example - once a plate glass uni - that is a third tier uni from the days when I was applying . One step above a poly back then and two above a teaching college. But those were the days.

mrz Sun 28-Oct-12 17:31:38

It was you that raised RG requirements and it wasn't Exeter but a much much older university

Ronaldo Sun 28-Oct-12 17:34:26

I said I had a student who applied to an RG university who was offered a 260 UCAS points get in last year. I said the same uni was offering AAB for its subject degrees. I cannot recall naming it. In fact I am sure I did not. I havent nam,ed any uni until the post just above when I mentioned Exeter as a plate glass university.

mrz Sun 28-Oct-12 17:50:04

I didn't say you did name any university jabed.
I said the RG university the "bully" attended was much much older

Ronaldo Sun 28-Oct-12 17:58:45

Sorry, I misunderstood you. The problem comes with so many threads within threads here. Time to stop I think.

Yellowtip Sun 28-Oct-12 18:12:52

Wow you're just as uptight in your new persona ron smile. Relax, I'm not bothered about trying to catch you out. I cant be expected to hang onto every nuance of your afflicted childhood tbf. I was just rather impressed by a middle-class mother in those days holding out against grammars - but I stand corrected.

Yellowtip Sun 28-Oct-12 18:14:14

Was this bully a Durham lawyer then mrz?

Yellowtip Sun 28-Oct-12 18:15:06

Sorry, stupid, Durham hasn't been RG until now. Forget that.

mrz Sun 28-Oct-12 18:16:58

no yellowtip

Yellowtip Sun 28-Oct-12 18:21:17

ron, re. your suggestion that bullies 'are most welcome' at grammars: bullies are everywhere; if they were capable of being excluded from grammars then why should the comprehensive system be expected to usher tham in. It's a ridiculous point. Bullies are part of life, sadly.

And when you were applying through UCCA (1976/7/8?) Exeter was in fact extremely competitive to get into; higher up the pecking order than it is now.

Ronaldo Sun 28-Oct-12 18:34:59

yellowtip , I had graduated in 1976.

Brycie Sun 28-Oct-12 20:37:47

"I suspect a lot of MN agree with you , I don't think many teachers would but many others would and do. "

Excuse me, I meant this sounds ambiguous, or just cleverly put. In reality I suppose it means "a lot of people who don't have much of a clue think you're right". Am I reading too much into it?

Brycie Sun 28-Oct-12 20:39:40

Ronaldo yes Exeter was well regarded late 70s early eighties, then went down, now going back up. Are you getting muddled with the PE teaching college it is / was attached to.

Brycie Sun 28-Oct-12 20:50:10

I like what Ronaldo says, I don't understand the problem with her popularity. Maybe because she says what a lot don't dare to? But I also agree with some of what Mrsz says too, lot of sense there. It's possible to be discerning. At least you are confident Ronaldo.

mrz Sun 28-Oct-12 20:51:13

Ronaldo is a he

Brycie Sun 28-Oct-12 20:53:14

Sorry I haven't been around htat long, I still assume everyone is a woman

Brycie Sun 28-Oct-12 20:54:03

not in the world obviously

Arisbottle Sun 28-Oct-12 21:39:42

Brycie I suspect that parents agree with Ronaldo because as parents we have to only consider our child and not the greater good . I suspect the children of MNers are perfectly behaved in class and therefore the very black and white view if kick out the disrupters is popular .

I suspect many MNers also share his horror at the working classes as well.

MordionAgenos Sun 28-Oct-12 22:39:42

Ronaldo While I agree with your implied opinion that Exeter is a bit bobbins, it is not and never was a plate glass uni. It was established well before the Robbins report.

TheOriginalSteamingNit Sun 28-Oct-12 22:46:50

My child is, according to her teachers, well behaved in class. Though she does go to 'council school', so I suppose it's all relative.... The one boy who does disrupt things sometimes is annoying, but I do not think he should be booted out and left to rot either, much as that would be nice for her.

Brycie Mon 29-Oct-12 02:10:17

Are you suggesting that anyone who wants to see disruptive children removed from class only wants to consider their own child? Or are you referring to Ronaldo's specific view that children can be removed form class and then he doesn't care what happens to them?

It's not suprising parents feel dismissed by teachers if their wish to have children taught without disruption is somehow thought to be precious.

YokoUhOh Mon 29-Oct-12 03:00:45

I'm a teacher at a state school. No-one - but no-one - disrupts my lessons; they wouldn't dare. I did, however, go to private school (11-16). Quite a few of my lessons were disrupted and no learning took place.

Ronaldo Mon 29-Oct-12 07:10:00

Brycie I suspect that parents agree with Ronaldo because as parents we have to only consider our child and not the greater good . I suspect the children of MNers are perfectly behaved in class and therefore the very black and white view if kick out the disrupters is popular

Excuse me if I butt in over your conversation a about me . Can I remind you I am a parent? Yes I do consider my own well behaved child in a class with a lot of disruptive pupils but I also consider all the other well behaved pupils in that class who really do need more consideration than they appear to get from a lot of teachers who are busy "considering" the disruptive ones, so much so that they seem to forget all the well behaved ones there.

I place the welfare and learning of the well behaved above that of the disruptive. That is the difference here.

Ronaldo Mon 29-Oct-12 07:18:20

Ronaldo While I agree with your implied opinion that Exeter is a bit bobbins, it is not and never was a plate glass uni. It was established well before the Robbins report

Its not an ex poly if that is what you mean. It is though what we called "plate glass" in the 1960's. It together with Aston, Salford, Keele, Warwick, and a few others ( cant recall them all) were third tier universities in our eyes back then. When you applied -just like they apply to Russell today - we applied to Oxbridge first, Durham, York and Nottingham and the Red Bricks. London ( with the exception of the LSE and UCL) and then all comers. Then it was the newly established polytechnics and then it was teacher training colleges who still didnt do subject degrees back then. It was around 1978 before they went into the field of subject degrees.

I dont know how we got at that list ( being 16 back then) I just know that was the pecking order. I applied to cambridge so none of it was of interest to me I am afraid. I still have little interest in it.

Exeter seemed to come "on scene" when some Slone Rangers applied there
(including Royals) in the 19801990's? Strange how people who were not so around want to re write history for those of us who have lived it.

Ronaldo Mon 29-Oct-12 07:23:24

I'm a teacher at a state school. No-one - but no-one - disrupts my lessons; they wouldn't dare. I did, however, go to private school (11-16). Quite a few of my lessons were disrupted and no learning took place

Good behaviour manager then?In a stateschool. Shame about the teaching.

Ronaldo Mon 29-Oct-12 07:25:14

sorry 1980 / 1990's - PC still Keyboard still running together.

mrz Mon 29-Oct-12 07:29:21

I'm sure you would be most unhappy if someone made a similar comment about your teaching jabed because it would be unfair to judge something we have no experience of, so perhaps you can see how silly your post makes you

Ronaldo Mon 29-Oct-12 07:29:27

Re plate glass- I suspectit was a pre war vs post war divide between the universities. The newer ones when I was a lad being the post war charters like Exeter and Keele.

Ronaldo Mon 29-Oct-12 07:32:06

mrz - people here have always been very quick to judge my teaching. Have I taken offence? I amnot supposed to take offence I suppose? I wonder why?

( is is 'cos I is a man? smile)

I didnt judge the teaching. I just it was a shame she had found herslf unable to teach in aprivate school despite her good discipline record in state schools. You read the rest in yourself.

Yellowtip Mon 29-Oct-12 08:10:32

I have absolutely no vested interest in Exeter either ron, it's just that you do seem to like to possess a monopoly of knowledge about certain facts purely on the grounds of your age. Your presence on this earth in the 1970's doesn't in itself make you all-knowing about things which went on in that era. My elder sister graduated in 1976 too (from Durham, not Exeter) and had attended a highly academic London school, where it was definitely the case that Exeter was up near the top, in terms of pecking. It slumped after that, no doubt partly related to the advent of Sloanes. I doubt many kids from your secondary modern applied through UCCA, so you may not be quite as clued up.

You are a parent, true, though not a hugely experienced one, since your only DC is aged 6. There's every possiblity that he may go wild, rebel vigorously against a suffocating prescription of what he's expected to be and disrupt class after class after class. I've found I never know what's about to come round the corner with my own DC: be prepared!

Arisbottle Mon 29-Oct-12 08:16:51

You said " shame about the teaching " how is that not a judgement.

The state sector is full of teachers with excellent records who have no desire to teach in the independent sector.

teacherwith2kids Mon 29-Oct-12 08:23:00

"I didnt judge the teaching. I just it was a shame she had found herslf unable to teach in aprivate school despite her good discipline record in state schools. You read the rest in yourself. "

Jabed, you misread.

Yuko said that she TAUGHT in a state school, and that there was no disruption in her lessons. However she was a PUPIL in a private school, where there was disruption.

There is no indication whatever that she has ever taught in a private school.

Tbh, in my experience disruption in lessons is much more a function of the teacher than it is of the type of school. In the [very academic, private] secondary I attended, behaviour was generally very good except when the class was taught by a poor teacher. I think it is horsemadmum who has said the same about somewhere like NLCS - that a poor teacher had her lessons continually disrupted. Equally in the school I teach in - very, very mixed - behaviour - and progress in learning - is extremely good except for 1 half term where we had a less good teacher teaching in a temporary position.

It's like the daft comment about bullies further up the thread - teachers with poor teaching will have disrupted classes in all schools, just as all schools have bullies.

Ronaldo Mon 29-Oct-12 08:27:30

I doubt many kids from your secondary modern applied through UCCA, so you may not be quite as clued up

My SM did not have a sixth form. In fact only 7 stayed on the fifth form which was still optional when I was 15/16. RoSLA ( thats raising of the school leaving age) to 16 didnt happen until well afterI left. The schol then closed down as it happens, amalgamated with another school to make a comprehensive . The poor grammar school suffered for that but I digress about how it was then.

I was by then in a top school ( having shown the local grammar I had so coveted all my earlier life a big boot!) The most academic pupils in the area went to sixth form in my sixth form and all of us applied through UCCA. Half of us were Oxbridge candidates and a large number got in. Oxford was always more popular that Cambridge. I am not saying I am all knowldegeable but I was there. I am not talking from history or books about this.

I would not disrespect your experience yellowtip, why do you feel the need to try and correct mine?

You are a parent, true, though not a hugely experienced one, since your only DC is aged 6. There's every possiblity that he may go wild, rebel vigorously against a suffocating prescription of what he's expected to be and disrupt class after class after class. I've found I never know what's about to come round the corner with my own DC: be prepared!

There is an equal (possibly greater) possibility he will not.

You seem to have an unusual idea of my parenting. I dont know where it is coming from. I may only have one DC but I have had thousands through my hands in a lifetime of teaching ( Sorry about the Mr Chips thing again) .

There are factors which lead to "wild child" behaviour just as there are factors whjich lead to disruptive pupils in school. They are mostly home factors. My DS is in a low risk category on those scores, despite what you think.

I work on probabilites. It seems to me you just want my DS to turn out a wrong un so you can say "I told you so". You may have to wait a long time to see if you are right - maybe even a time after MN isnt here.

So let it go. I dont tell you how to bring your DC up or that I think they will be rubbish in their lives do I?

Ronaldo Mon 29-Oct-12 08:28:52

Yuko said that she TAUGHT in a state school, and that there was no disruption in her lessons. However she was a PUPIL in a private school, where there was disruption

I know what she said. .

Ronaldo Mon 29-Oct-12 08:31:39

It's like the daft comment about bullies further up the thread - teachers with poor teaching will have disrupted classes in all schools, just as all schools have bullies

No I didnt.I expressed surprise that a bully had managed to get intoa grammar school.

Arisbottle Mon 29-Oct-12 08:34:40

Why would a bully struggle to get into the grammar? One of my children was bullied at the grammar, I rather foolishly sent him to the grammar thinking that he may fit in better and therefore would not be bullied . Our grammars for girls are notorious for bullying.

Ronaldo Mon 29-Oct-12 08:35:23

teacherwith2kids, read what I actually said will you?

teacherwith2kids Mon 29-Oct-12 08:37:28

Since you didn't misread, jabed, I am genuinely puzzled as to what you mean by 'shame about the teaching'. What evidence do you have that in Yuko's state school the teaching is not universally excellent? In fact, what evidence do you have about ANY teaching in TODAY's state secondaries (I know that IN THE DISTANT PAST you have worked in some poor state schools - but what evidence do you have about today's schools in general, and Yuko's in particular)?

MordionAgenos Mon 29-Oct-12 08:39:38

Ronaldo I am not re-writing history, I just know more about it than you. Exeter got an individual charter in 1955. Before that it was a college of London (since the 20s). The plate glass unis were established after the Robbins report in 1963 and they were east anglia, Essex, Kent, York, Sussex, Warwick. Like you(?) I went to Cambridge, I didn't apply to Exeter because it never had a good rep for maths, but unlike you I have close family members and friends who are or have been academics at Exeter and I've been a guest lecturer there myself.

TheOriginalSteamingNit Mon 29-Oct-12 08:39:46

Yes, what on earth could you have meant, if you didn't misread and you know she has never tried to teach in a private school, when you said it was a shame she found herself unable to teach in a private school?

teacherwith2kids Mon 29-Oct-12 08:40:31

You said that you felt that a bully was unfit for a grammar school education. Since the test for grammar school entry is based on an 11+ exam which does not have the question 'are you, or could you become, a bully?' I am unsure about how you feel that bullies are magically excluded from such schools, in the same way as bullies are present in all private schools. In all good schools of all types, the baheviour of bullies is managed and modified, but it does not mean that they are not present.

teacherwith2kids Mon 29-Oct-12 08:43:12

(I teach in state schools because, frankly, the standard of teaching in all my local private schools appalls me and I refuse to be part of such a boring, old-fashined, rigid educational atmosphere... but I emphasise that that is true of my local area and not necessarily true of others)

MordionAgenos Mon 29-Oct-12 08:46:23

Ron further to my last post - the label 'plate glass' referred to the clutch of post Robbins report (1963) new build universities and it was a comment on, surprise surprise, their architecture. Exeter was more typically (and perhaps rightly) lumped in with the redbricks, starting life as a college of London as many of them did, but a bit later than the rest and in a less metropolitan setting. And not being made of plate glass.

But I do agree with you that while it has had different levels of reputation in the past and now for some subjects (it's been one of the top top places for business, economics, accountancy for at least 25 years - and I do mean top top places) it has never had a good rep for maths. Or science generally I think.

teacherwith2kids Mon 29-Oct-12 08:48:01

(Apologies, I should also clarify that I mean 'private primary schools, because that is the age range I teach. I wouldn't want to teach in the local private secondaries because...well, they aren't very good, getting less good results than the local 'secondary modern' comprehensive, let alone the superselective grammars)

MordionAgenos Mon 29-Oct-12 08:48:18

Both the schools my older two kids attend (one grammar, one comp) seem to deal with the (very small) number of disruptive and bullying kids I've been aware of rather effectively. Without permanent exclusion AFAIA.

Ronaldo Mon 29-Oct-12 08:48:33

'shame about the teaching'

There were three separate sentences there. Three statements. Responses to what was said in the quote I ran at the top.

I meant exactly what I said. Shame about the teaching.

teacherwith2kids Mon 29-Oct-12 08:49:21

Mordion, after all, the same is true of very ancient foundations - Oxford, for example, was for very many years NOT the place to go to study engineering, despite the 'general' academic excellence for other subjects.

mrz Mon 29-Oct-12 08:49:26

No jabed that is not what you said ... a reminder of what you did say
"Good behaviour manager then?In a stateschool. Shame about the teaching." nothing about teaching in a private school

Ronaldo Mon 29-Oct-12 08:50:15

You said " shame about the teaching " how is that not a judgement

It was a response to what the poster had written.

teacherwith2kids Mon 29-Oct-12 08:51:26

Shame about WHAT teaching, jabed? Yuko's? (About which you know nothing). The state school in which she teaches? (About which you know nothing) The state sector in general? (About which you have some outdated knowledge from, by your own admission, a selection of 'tough' schools in the distant past)

Arisbottle Mon 29-Oct-12 08:52:31

I think because we are all aware that Ronaldo is trying to wind us up we are assuming that every statement he makes is designed to be offensive .

Having read it back I think he is just saying that it was a shame the lessons were disrupted at the posters school.

Ronaldo Mon 29-Oct-12 08:53:56

No jabed that is not what you said ... a reminder of what you did say

"Good behaviour manager then?

OK lets disect it shall we mrz? The poster said no one would dare disrupt her teaching .

I said good behaviour manager then

She had said she worked in a state school,

I said

In a stateschool.

She said that her lessons had been disrupted in her school ( a private one) and that she had learned nothing.

I said

"Shame about the teaching."

TheOriginalSteamingNit Mon 29-Oct-12 08:54:41

Mm, so what did you mean when you said it was a shame she found herself unable to teach in a private school?

And why dont you just admit you read it wrongly, rather than digging this rather tortuous pit for yourself?

teacherwith2kids Mon 29-Oct-12 08:56:18

Jabed, could you explain this bit:
"I didnt judge the teaching. I just it was a shame she had found herslf unable to teach in aprivate school despite her good discipline record in state schools."?

teacherwith2kids Mon 29-Oct-12 08:57:04

because that was the point that it was clear to me that you had misread.

TheOriginalSteamingNit Mon 29-Oct-12 09:01:12

Prediction: Jabed now tells us he has something better to do. He goes away, and returns this evening, makes about seventeen posts in a row, and suggests he feels bullied and targeted by some posters who insist on picking apart some of his least logical posts to look for sense. He is sorry, ladies, but he cannot explain everything, and also his fat fingers force him to make errors of basic comprehension. And now, ladies, he is off to listen to Liberace, so please excuse him if he leaves us to our chatter. And then the same again tomorrow.

Ronaldo Mon 29-Oct-12 09:01:12

Ron further to my last post - the label 'plate glass' referred to the clutch of post Robbins report (1963) new build universities and it was a comment on, surprise surprise, their architecture. Exeter was more typically (and perhaps rightly) lumped in with the redbricks, starting life as a college of London as many of them did, but a bit later than the rest and in a less metropolitan setting. And not being made of plate glass.

I was led to believe at school that plate glass referred to a bunch of post universities we were not to touch with a barge pole because they were " new" and not up to the same reputation. Not that they may not be good ( never crossed my mind really. I was going to Cambridge and that was it. It never crossed my mind I would not get in either - luckily I was right I guess - opr my arrogance and expectation were such that they were shing through).

I always associateRobbins with the extension of university education to Polytechnics ( which did expand the provision greatly in the 1960's).

BTW Exeter was never lumped in with the red bricks. I have to differ with you there. I knew exactly who the red bricks were.

Ronaldo Mon 29-Oct-12 09:03:33

what I said TW2K - shame that with such a good discipline record she found herself in a state school. I still think private schools are best.

teacherwith2kids Mon 29-Oct-12 09:04:37

Ah, wrong prediction, steaming - Jabed will return to an ealier point in the thread to deflect attention from a later misreading.

Jabed, it is of course possible that what your school led you to believe MIGHT HAVE BEEN WRONG. You mention yourself that you weren't looking at Exeter, and so knew nothing about it - which has therefore led you to make wrong statements about it on this thread. How abaout you just say 'sorry, I realise that you have better information than I do' and move on?

teacherwith2kids Mon 29-Oct-12 09:05:41

Jabed, if you live where I do, unfortunately for your theory, the state schools are significantly better.....

Ronaldo Mon 29-Oct-12 09:06:04

So she had a bad experience in a private school ( hence I am sorry her teaching was bad - sorry re phrase that - that she did not learn because of disruption)

See how these things happen? Normally I might have taken that out and re written it. I took quite a lot out of the post we are talking about.

I do feel its a shame she has not experienced teaching in a private school. I think everyone should before they comment on the experience of others. I have done both.

Ronaldo Mon 29-Oct-12 09:08:20

Look folks I know you dislike my strong opinions. I am willing to discuss, debate and even banter with you but I do I get on your backs like you are on mine all the time?

Do I pick up all your comments and say rude things about them? Do I criticise your kids or send warnings about your parenting into the ether?

Back off. If you want me to leave MN then I wil. Just say it. Lets not do the bullying thing please.

teacherwith2kids Mon 29-Oct-12 09:09:47

Sorry Jabed - it's not going to happen to me. Why should I teach in a school much less interesting, much less good, much less well-equipped [in terms of teachong - I acknowledge that the sports facilities are better] and where children make significantly less progress than they do in mine?