Teacher training qualifications?

(38 Posts)
KatyMac Fri 05-Oct-12 20:47:50

"The PGCE course includes the ‘Preparing to Teach’ (PTLLS), ‘Certificate to Teach’ (CTLLS) and the ‘Diploma in Teaching’ (DTLLS), which forms the basis of all teacher training qualifications."

What does this actually mean in terms of teaching? What else would you need?

changeforthebetter Fri 05-Oct-12 20:54:14

Gawd knows. Sorry slightly drunk NQT after a truly shitty day.

FWIW I did my PGCE at a (I believe it's known as a "bastard") Russell Group Uni and it was a complete waste of time. The lecturers were self-important wankers, first placement a battlefield, second better but still shite. It is totally inadequate training. I would advise TA work to get a feel for the warzone life in school (I am secondary so that might cloud my opinion wink) then go for a good GTP which is far superior preparation IMHO

BoneyBackJefferson Fri 05-Oct-12 21:09:06

I thought that the GTP was being wound down.

KatyMac Fri 05-Oct-12 21:11:30

DD wants to dance & then be a dance teacher there is a course at Italia COnti which does both......I just wondered if it were only part of a teaching course (iyswim)

changeforthebetter Fri 05-Oct-12 21:13:16

Probably another Gove-innit-shit-ive?? I envy our GTPS. They get fantastic training, on the job from day one with loads of support. I really did think the PGCE was <holds nose and uses slummy MN phrase> a lot of wank. Teacher training is really a bit up shit creek and ought to be better. My school aren't bad but I still think that you don't get enough preparation before you are thrown to the lions left alone in the classroom grin

changeforthebetter Fri 05-Oct-12 21:14:00

My school <ahem> isn't bad blush

messybedhead Fri 05-Oct-12 21:15:13

I completed a PGCert in Primary Education with QTS.
I didn't have any of those certificates or diploma things as part of my course.
Also the PGCert is (apparently) better than a PGCE as it is a Masters level qualification (60 credits).

KatyMac Fri 05-Oct-12 21:15:47

here??

messybedhead Fri 05-Oct-12 21:18:13

Is this to teach dance in school or as an extra-curricular activity? If the course has QTS (qualified teacher status) then that is all she would need.

KatyMac Fri 05-Oct-12 21:22:32

So that's what we need to look for

It does DDI & DDE for teaching outside of a school, but I had hoped the PTLLS/CTLLS/DTLLS would qualify her to teach in a school

changeforthebetter Fri 05-Oct-12 21:34:02

I have 60 Masters Credits as part of PGCE - quite standard, I think. What matters is what is the best training for the sort of teaching you want to do. I am not sure PGCE prepares you well for much.

KatyMac Fri 05-Oct-12 21:38:45

OK

The DDi & DDE will they are fab but not for mainstream school (the are run through ISTD which is the board DH is qualified in, so I know how hard/respected they are)

I guess I was hoping for a short cut for her, rather than 3 years of study, 10 years of dancing then starting the study all over again for an indefinite period of time

breadandbutterfly Fri 05-Oct-12 21:56:05

You're confusing PCE for teaching in primary/secondary with PGCE (same initials but stand for different things!) for teaching in FE. The latter is the one you're referring to in your OP. This year, in fact last month, the need to have a PGC/DTLLS was abolished in FE - largely because it had not been compulsory until 2007 and most FE Lecturers (myself included) who'd taught quite happily previously without one, couldn't be arsed to get one - so eventually the govt bowed to the inevitable and made them non-compulsory. The PTLLS is basically just a generic intro to FE teaching - conceivably useful if you've never ever done any teaching - the CTLLS is being abolished anyway as it was a pointless half-way house that no-one did. Some jobs still ask for PTLLS but not many and some for DTLLS/PGCE.

None of this covers the topic to be taught eg Dance in this case - they are just generic teaching skills courses.

breadandbutterfly Fri 05-Oct-12 21:57:40

Sorry, should read "You're confusing PGCEfor teaching in primary/secondary with PGCE (same initials but stand for different things!) for teaching in FE."

Hope that makes more semse!

butterflygarden Fri 05-Oct-12 21:58:47

PTLLS / CTLLS / DTLLS qualifications are for teachers in Further Education (ie. 16+). Which one you do depends on your role. For the full teaching role it’s DTLLS, for the ‘associate’ role (less responsibility) it’s CTLLS. The first module of both is called PTLLS and some people do that as a separate unit then go onto either CTLLS or DTLLS the next year. Most people (in my experience) do PTLLS as part of the full qualification. Info about quals here: www.tes.co.uk/article.aspx?storyCode=6175365

This was all compulsory until earlier this year, when the government backtracked and decided that teachers in FE did not need a teaching qualification. I think most colleges would still be looking for applicants with quals though. Info about becoming an FE teacher here: www.excellencegateway.org.uk/node/20731

Once you have got DTLLS you can apply for QTLS (qualified teacher – adults). If someone does a primary/secondary PGCE they get QTS (qualified teacher – school age kids). I have heard it said that people with QTLS will now be able to teach in schools (not sure down to which age) but can’t find any clear info on this. Maybe someone else knows this?

So basically: To teach adults you don't need any specific teaching quals but DTLLS is widely thought of as the 'standard' and may be accepted by schools too. To teach in school you must have a teaching qual -PGCE- and I presume this would be ok for 16+ too as you don't need quals to work in FE now.

Sorry so long!

KatyMac Sat 06-Oct-12 08:23:41

I thought it wasn't straight forwards

titchy Sat 06-Oct-12 14:21:07

But a PGCE is only one year once she has a degree? As long as she does one that leads to QTS she will be able to teach in a school. Would probably need her first degree to be in a national curriculum subject though for secondary, PE maybe? The other route to school teaching is a 4 year BEd. No short cuts to being able to teach in a school!

Thewidewideworld Sat 06-Oct-12 14:30:05

Change - sorry to hear your PGCE was not a good experience. For balance, however, I have to say that I also did PGCE (Secondary last year at an RG University (one that is rated in the top five in the country for PGCE) and it was a brilliant experience. My tutors were brilliant, I learned an enormous amount on my placement and both my placement schools and university were very supportive. I would recommend my PGCE course to anybody. I agree with you though about doing TA work first, I did a year's TAing to gain experience and found it very valuable.

NimChimpsky Sat 06-Oct-12 14:35:02

I've recently been accepted to a GTP thingy. Secondary English. My teacher friend turned up her nose and said it was nothing like doing a pgce which she swears is the one and only way. I'm glad that other people on here seem to be pro on the job training.

Thewidewideworld Sat 06-Oct-12 14:39:55

Nim - I worked alongside GTP trainees during my PGCE placements. Ultimately, we all have to pass the same standards. GTP trainees have a heavier teaching load, but then they get paid, which is a huge advantage. PGCE students probably get a better theoretical grounding which does help getting to grips with planning and assessment. But I found that we were going through the same hoops, grappling with the same problems, so not a lot of difference. The big difference is how supportive your university and placement schools are and I couldn't fault mine.

AViewfromtheFridge Sat 06-Oct-12 14:42:59

I did a PGCE, which was fine, but in no way prepared me for my NQT year - I think in my second placement I still only had a 60% timetable. That said, a GTP qualification isn't generally recognised abroad - important if you're thinking of emigrating ever.

changeforthebetter Sat 06-Oct-12 15:17:31

<shuffles in shamefacedly> Sorry, about the ranty somewhat drunken nature of last nights' posts. It had been a particularly bad day blush

I went for the PGCE because I am the type of learner who likes to take theories on board and then later apply them in a practical setting. The trouble with our course, and it may be a subject-specific issue, was that the teacher trainers were so out of touch with the classroom. At least with GTP you are learning about the job from people who are actually doing it. Our GTP mentor is outstanding (if rather fierce). I suppose it depends on the quality of the mentor. My second mentor was very good but she had to try to cram into 14 weeks what had been lacking from the start. None of the real teachers had any respect for the academics. I have studied at postgraduate level before and found academic rigour rather lacking in the course. Again, I accept this may be my subject area at my particular university.

changeforthebetter Sat 06-Oct-12 15:20:25

Congratulations on the GTP post Nim. I trained alongside a GTP-er last year and would say that by the end of the training she was far, far better prepared and skilled than I was. If she and I had applied for the same job I have no doubt she would have got it. Fortunately, she wanted to relocate anyway smile

NimChimpsky Sat 06-Oct-12 18:45:09

Thanks all. grin Practically, geographically and in terms of suitability, the GTP suits me much, much better. Particularly in financial terms actually. I've spoken to people who used this particular provider and seen it in action. I really do think that getting into a classroom with a decent mentor is going to suit me. I will start teaching 5hrs, progressing to 13hrs by the end of the 9 months.

I am ridiculously, stupidly nervous. Not starting till 2013 though. Plenty of time to worry.

AngelEyes46 Tue 09-Oct-12 21:43:34

Katy - it looks as if the course will not give her QTS but she can then go for QTLS which is now equivalent to QTS. http://www.ifl.ac.uk/newsandevents/press-releases/ifl-members-with-qtls-qualified-to-teach-in-schools. Sorry - not too sure how to convert the link

bumpybecky Tue 09-Oct-12 21:48:43

Katy I thought your dd was a similar age to my dd1 (14). By the time your dd comes to do teacher training it'll all have changed again I'm sure...

KatyMac Tue 09-Oct-12 21:52:54

Yes - but she could potentially start the course in 2 years at 16; so I want to know what it will mean for her when she can't/doesn't want to dance any more

KatyMac Tue 09-Oct-12 21:56:11

It always seems silly to me that decisions made at 16 (or even at 14 with your options) can affect your entire career

overthemill Tue 09-Oct-12 22:01:50

katymac the bits you refer to in your OP are indeed part of a PGCE (post compulsory education) course and take you up to level 7 qual (so post grad). It is what I have. I then spent around a year (not quite) to earn my QTLS (which is the equiv of QTS for school teachers). QTLS has (since April this year) been recognised as exact equiv of QTS and so those of us who have PGCE (PCE) and QTLS can now teach in ALL sectors as qualified teachers.

I happened to do my PGCE part time over 2 years, others do it full time over 1 year.

Gove has changed the requirements yet again and I understand that it is no longer a professional requirement that teachers/lecturers in FE/HE have PGCE/QTLS. Shame because teaching does require professional training.

I now teach in a school, teaching English, my degree subject. The PGCE taught me to teach but not how to teach my subject!

KatyMac Tue 09-Oct-12 22:19:38

I don't wish to be too blunt; but this course is more expensive than others - if the 'extra' teaching bit is pointless, then it's not worth paying more for

overthemill Wed 10-Oct-12 08:37:02

it is a useful qualification but it is tailored towards professionals who have been teaching others their subject for many years and now want a good professional qualification to provide them with skills and knowledge to back up their subject experience. it isn't a shortcut into teaching - you need prior experience and also have to find yourself 150 hours of teaching experience to complete the award. i am not 100% certain of your daughter's professional requirements but it doesn't sound like the right course for her at this stage (at 16).

i really loved the course and it was brilliant for me. It helped me work out that although i loved my job training adults in my then sector i also loved teaching so much i wanted to teach in a school which is what i now do having also obtained my QTLS. It was an extremely tough route but worked for me as i couldn't afford to stop work in order to qualify.

KatyMac Wed 10-Oct-12 09:18:50

I was hoping to get some training in so when she 'retires' she can teach; rather than starting to strain at that point

But I'm not sure it's worth the premium

titchy Wed 10-Oct-12 09:38:49

You can't realistically expect a 16 year old to undertake a professional qualification, at post-graduate level, aimed at practitioners. It's totally unsuitable, and I'd question the ethics of the college if they accepted such an applicant.

What's wrong with doing teaching training when she's older and her dance career is over?

And there is very little that a decision made at 14 y old can make that will affect the rest of their life - it won't necessarily be easy, but with enough determination and application an adult CAN do things they otherwise thought they couldn't - starting a medicine degree at 40 for instance.

KatyMac Wed 10-Oct-12 09:45:48

That's one of the reasons for the thread; to find out if it was worth while

The general consensus is that it isn't worth it - but if I hadn't asked I wouldn't know

She will do the DDi & DDE which will be appropriate for her at that level (and will lead to an ability to earn money while she is 'resting') and then worry about proper teaching at 30 or so

overthemill Thu 11-Oct-12 07:32:32

and thats what mumsnet is for - so we can help each other! I hope she finds what she is looking for - what a wonderful skill

KatyMac Thu 11-Oct-12 07:46:03

She is amazing; every time she preforms I am in awe that I gave birth to her & every time she is 'grown up' or acts 'maturely' I am shocked remembering my tiny baby

She has a really good take on 'performing' (imo); she says "I'll do it until I am too old and then I'll teach". And her intent isn't 'to be a star' but simply to dance on stage while I can

KatyMac Thu 11-Oct-12 07:47:01

BTW

"Thanks" for explaining it all to me; I would have paid for something fairly useless

overthemill Thu 11-Oct-12 08:10:00

save that money so you can go to all her shows! grin
i am also in awe of my dd - she can sing and play the guitar and she seems to have taught herself - how in hell did i produce someone so talented???

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