Proposed statment- kyliebump help!!! :)

[Jimjams]

Hi Kyliebump

we received the draft statement today.
We're reasonably happy with part 2 - it describeshis problems fairly well, and recognises his speech disorder as well as the autism.

But part 3 oh dear- what a pile of waffle.

There is no mention of an LSA just statements like "daily individual and small-group support to develop pre-literacy and pre-numeracy skills" Well a) small group won't work full stop.

The bit about providing for his speech and langauge needs says things like "the SALT will then prepare a programme which states the salt goals. This will include specific speech and langauge activities as appropriate and will include advice and guidance for classroom staff and parents on the relevant techniques and activities which can be incorporated into the classroom blah blah blah"

What we want is a TRAINED LSA to provide daily SALT- they will need input from a SALT and also training in things like PECS- All it says wrt this is "A will benefit from daily individual support to work on a communication programme advised by a SALT"

Leaving a piece of paper for an LSA will be no good at all (tried it - doesn't work).


So there's nothing about mealtime assistants (he's gluten free so needs supervising to make sure he doesn't eat other food). Nothing about breaktime assistants (without which he's liable to wander off and end up under a car). Nothing about the transition between school and nursery (we're expecting it to take a year), Nothing about the level of support he will be provided with (they have told the school they will provide 0.8 and school will make up 0.2- shouldn't there be something about that in here). Nothing about having his own LSA at all "classroom staff" is the closest we get. Looking at the statement the bits where they have specified individual support could be provided in less than half an hour!

I've tried to contact IPSEA and the NAS education advice line. Waiting to hear back. Any advice welcomed (from anyone!)

[fio2]

our says with reference to SALT-
a programme to promote the further development of communication skills which will take into account of the advice and support of the SALT

• staff with relevant experience and expertise
  
  does that make sense? reply if you need any more info off ours.
  
  Ours is working well, by the way

[Kyliebump]

Hi Jimjams

Just to let you know that I've seen your post and will get back to you with a reply later on - ds is totally overheated and demanding full time attention at the moment!!

Just quickly though - is there any mention of where the support is going to come from? I know that some LEAs don't specify the level of support in their statements, and put in a bland statement about support coming from resources delagated to the school, but I personally don't think that's helpful, and if I were you would push for them to specify the hours in the statement. If they are going to provide the support anyway, they would probably buckle on having it specified in the statement rather than go to Tribunal over it - after all if they're providing the support anyway then it is just a wording issue. Not sure if they would specify what the school would put in, or just the 0.8 that would be provided by the LEA.

As you can see, the heat is getting to me to and I'm not thinking straight - will post later (when cooler!).

[Jimjams]

Thanks kyliebump- you're a superstar. Nothing really mentioning any support to him at all, never mind hours. The problem is that becuase he'll be in nursery for a lot of the time he could end up with next to nothing (the funding formula is changing for nursery). The idea was that his nursery worker would take him tos school and also aid in training his LSA. No mention of an LSA and no mention of anything to do with nursery or transition. His nursery manager has said she's going to out her copy down the toilet! (she;s not very impressed). Seriously I would say part 3 gives next to nothing. I'll try and write the whole lot out for you. It'll be a long post but I would be interested in how it compares with other LEA's

[Jimjams]

Part 3 section B

A?s needs will be addressed throughan individualised learning programme which will incorporate inclass, small group and individual support as appropriate. This will include:-

A differentiated curriculum delivered through a developmenta; approach and at an appropriate pace and depth where teaching tasks, methods and materials are modified according to the level of need. A will need the provision of a structured, predictable consistent environement routines and staffing with cues about what will happen next in order to prepare him for change. He will require individulaised, structured programmes of work based on a total environment management system or such which adopts the principals from a TEACCH approach.

Daily individual and small-group support to develop pre-literacy and pre-numeracy skills.

A structured communication skills programme which will include the development of his listening and speaking skills, verbal comprehension, vocab and intelligibility of speech in conjunction with advice from a SALT. Alternative communcation systems should be available to support his his developing understanding and use of language. A will benefit from daily individual support to work on a communication programme advised by a SALT. The SALT will identify the immediate speech and langauge aims and in consultation with the class teacher will relate these to his curriculum and social needs. The SALT will then prepare a programme which states the SAL goals. The will include specific speech and langauge activities as appropriateand will include advice and guidance for classroom staff and parents on the relevant techniques and activities which can be incorporated into the classroom, teaching activities and social activities inside and outside the classroom. The programme will be revised either when A has achieved the SAL goals, at the request of the teacher, or at the SALT?s reassesment and review of progress.

Structured approached to include concentration and attention which provide a high level of positive reinforcement


Blah blah blah- all similar to the above but to do with dressing etc then:

Initially addition resources will be allocated to help the school meet A?s complex needs.

The school should have access to advice and support from the Outreach teacher for pupils with a communication Disorder.

[Jimjams]

So nothing about nursery support, nothing about LSA's, nothing about training for the LSA, nothing about needing help at meal times (on a special diet and breaktimes (liable to wander off and look at cars).

It's really important to get everything in as the school is in a different LEA.

Also in the form they've sent they've out that his needs "can be met at the local mainstream primary but the parents have expressed a wish for school X"

does that mean we have to write school X in the box?

fio2- how old is your child? I know you've told me but I can't remember.....

We have a meeting with the LEA statementing officer, the school, and the nursery manager on Friday. I'm pleased the nursery manager is going- she'll make us look like pussy cats

Our LEA is into balnd statements I think

BTW- do you think that statement about the outreach teacher will be enough to actually allow them to visit the school? (Just trying to be sure as it crosses lea's boundaries)

[fio2]

she is jimjams and at a special needs nursery so they are well equipped to deal with her at present. She is 'complex' too, this makes me laugh. Our LEA writes bland statements too. If it says write your preffered school in the box, do so-we had to do this too. You are right to get the statement right though if he is going to mainstream-we have got this to come next september

Ours does specify help at mealtimes and with dressing and toileting. It also specifies Makaton use etc. It should also include he is vulnerable at lunchtimes I know our dd's says she is vulnerable in busy sistuations(breaktimes) I hope this helps, I feel like Im rambling on.

[fio2]

I meant to write she is 3 1/2

[Kyliebump]

Hi Jimjams

Sorry it's taken a while to get back to you - here are my thoughts (for what they're worth!).

In terms of the meeting (is SALT going to be there too?), I would go armed with actual suggested wording that you want in the statement, for them to go away and consider (may well not be possible for the LEA officer to agree or disagree to things on the spot). I find that this is much more productive than just saying general areas of disagreement.

From my reading of it, the LEA have mentioned support (just about!) when they've said, "Initially additional resources will be allocated to help the school meet A's complex needs". I would definitely push for the LEA to specify the amount of hours (or cash equivalent) that they are going to be providing to the school. I would also ask that they remove the 'initially' from that sentence, as it sounds like you are agreeing that the hours will be reduced. If, at a later date, the LEA want to reduce the hours following an Annual Review, they should do this as a separate issue rather than suggesting it at this point. As your ds is under 5, his first Annual Review should be after 6 months of the date of the statement. As I mentioned before, I don't know whether the LEA would just specify the 0.8 or would have some way of putting the school's 0.2 in as well.

I'm afraid I can't help at all on the wording about the transition from nursery to school - are the LEA aware that you are effectively planning a split-placement between nursery and school until ds is ready to transfer full time - that would certainly have implications for the wording of the support arrangements - the LEA won't want to be funding 0.8 support at school if he's not there for 0.8 of the time! They may need to put something in about pro rata support.

You will have to check at the meeting that the outreach teacher for pupils with a communication disorder will be able to provide a service to the school in the other LEA.

In terms of the SALT paragraph, if they put in "from a trained LSA" after "daily individual support" then that seemed to match pretty much what you wanted if they then address the training issue in another point. For example, 'Advice and training to school staff from XXXX regarding use of symbol or pictorial systems including PECS and classroom support strategies e.g. visual timetables'. I've put XXXX instead of SALT as you would need to clarify with SALT and the outreach teacher, which of those two would provide the training. It would also be worth checking that it would be the same Health Authority providing SALT, as it would be awful to agree SALT provision with one Health Authority only to find out the Health Authority covering that school won't implement it.

You said in your earlier post that small group wouldn't work for your ds - this term could mean paired work - ie your ds, with the supporting LSA, working with one other child (not necessarily SEN). So, your ds would still have his support, but there would be another child involved in the activity too. I don't know your ds so I don't know whether this sort of arrangement would be an option in some situations, or are you saying that your ds will only work one to one with his LSA and no other children at all times?

In terms of playtimes and lunchtimes, as fio2 says you could ask for a point to go in about ds' vulnerability. e.g adult supervision at playtime and lunchtime to ensure his safety. You may also want to tie that in with needing support to develop social interaction skills within the playground setting.

There didn't seem to be anything in the statement about developing ds' social interaction skills and peer group relationships - might be worth thinking about having something in there e.g structured and supported activities to develop social skills and peer interaction.

Sorry for such a long post. It's good that the nursery manager and the school are both going too - would the nursery manager be able to help you put together some proposed changes / additions to the statement? As I said before, it is much more productive to go there with a clear idea of exactly what you want in the statement, rather than just saying that you're not happy with what they've written. Often the proposed statement is just a starting point to kick off the negotiations.

Hope the meeting goes well on Friday - post again if there's anything before then that you think I might be able to help with, but we're away for a week from 20/7 so I will be out of contact for a bit.

[Jimjams]

Thanks kyliebump- you've pretty much confirmed what we thought (and have written down).

For SALT- we written that "A requires daily SALT provided by an LSA who has received objectively suitable training to work on A's language problems, articulatory problems and in the use of PECS".

We'vesaid that the whole of part 3 is not specific enough and quoted the law at them in great detail. We have pointed out that comments such as "initially additional resources will be allocated to help the shcool meet A's complex needs" are not helpful and do not meet the requirements of the code of practice. Also pointed out that initially and additional are not helpful!

Also pointed out that nursery provision has not been discussed. (Initially they'll have to kind of fund double at times becuase they want his current one to one helper to train his LSA)

We've said he needs mealtime assistant and break time assistant and said that he has no road sense, idea of strangr danger and is liable to wander off. Aslo pointed out his special diet, the fatc that he can't open packets and tends to stuff too much in his mouth and gag.

Also asked them to clarify the position of the outreach worker.

Different LEA but same health authority- so no problems there (just no SALT!)

Enjoying this so much I'm finding out about becoming a volunteer for the NAS Education Advice Line

Fio2- "complex" a favourite word! Is your child also "delightful", we have discovered that all complex children down here are also "delightful" in reports- and we think it is a code word!! (This time ds1 was charming as well- written by someone who hasn't met him!)

[Jimjams]

Thanks again kyliebump- you're a star....

[Kyliebump]

No problem Jimjams - hope the meeting on Friday goes well. It might be a good idea to ask that notes are kept of the main points of the meeting (probably written up by the LEA and then agreed by you as being an accurate record of the meeting.) It's helpful to have a clear record rather than having to have discussions further down the line about who said what - memories tend to alter over time!

If the LEA are already agreeing to full time support (ie their 0.8 and the school's 0.2), then hopefully there shouldn't be too many issues over making the wording more specific. There may be issues over the 'double-funding' though - or has the LEA already agreed to do this? I imagine they would want to put a time limit on that, as they could argue that it is not an 'efficient use of their resources' to have support in school if ds is not attending.

Another thing that may be an issue is that the LEA are unlikely to agree to put in SALT wording that the SALT service haven't agreed that they will provide. Has the SALT service indicated what they will provide for your ds?

Good luck for Friday!

[Jimjams]

SALT have agreed to "at least" 4 visits per term- and he has been taken on by the autism specialist SALT- but as I've pointed out to the LEA it doesn't matter whether the HA will provide or not- that's been through the courts (the harrow judgment 1996). The repsonsibility to provide SALT actualy remains with the LEA. They can ask the HA, but if they can't provide it then the LEA have to make alternative arrangements (that point went to judicial review) We have said because of that difficulty we will accept the suitable training bit for the LSA (rather than specifying a specific number of hours from a SALT) the training could come from other people in part- eg outreach teachers etc

Apparently the funding can be altered on a weekly basis so they are only paying for the LSA when she is working iyswim. The school have done that in the past. They just ring the LEA weekly and say how much time is needed that week.

We're keeping notes- don't worry- I'll probably give that job to DH.

Thanks again!

[Kyliebump]

I know that the LEA has the ultimate responsibility for SALT provision, but that is exactly why many LEAs will not willingly put in anything that hasn't been recommended by the HA, so that they are not going to be in the position of having to make arrangements for it. For example, if you thought that ds needed daily SALT input from a SALT, and the HA didn't agree, then the LEA would not put that in a statement and the amount of SALT provision would have to be hammered out at Tribunal. Although the Harrow judgement does support that SALT should go in Pt3 (and this is widely acknowledged) and the LEA is responsible, it doesn't mean that any SALT arrangements that parents want have to be agreed - do you see what I mean? By the way, I have personally experienced the daily SALT from a SALT demand from more than one parent!!

In your case however, I would think that there shouldn't be a problem. The SALT has agreed to do the visits and the actual programme can be carried out by the trained LSA - very sensible. The wording you have suggested for the SALT paragraph seems fine (although I'm not sure what objectively trained means?). I think what you are requesting in terms of SALT is reasonable and would imagine that the Tribunal would also go the same way - lets hope that you don't have to go as far as a Tribunal though - sounds like unless there are major sticking points with the transition & support thing, the rest of the issues should be resolved by rewording.

[Jimjams]

I see what you mean. Of course daily SALT from a SALT is completely impossible (unless you're in the States). Our LEA do seem unaware of the harrow judgment or the lancashire judgement though as they say they will never put SALT anywhere except part 5 which is why I'm hammering home the point with them. I just think once it is clearly mentioned in part 2 then the rest of the support should follow- and we're more than happy for that to come from an LSA. The objectively trained but was just so they don't think that 1 hour listening to a group talk on autism counts as SALT training iyswim. Happy to change the wording to that to tighten it up a bit- just suitably trained was too open to interpretation.

Anyway we will see how we get on tomorrow. Cheers again- can't say I'm looking forward to it.

[fio2]

jimjams I think you are doing the right thing to push this by the way I am really pi**ed off today, I have just received dd's review from the school and it turns out her main means of communication at school is PECS. We have not been told this at all. We have been told to use Makaton with the speech therapy programme we have been given. We did have PECS in mind but how come they haven't told us?? Why do they not think it is necessary for us to know about this? What is going on, why weren't we told, how is this going to help her-one method of communication at school and a different one at home?

BTW as well as being 'complex' she is always described as a happy little girl who tries hard to communicate(but fails)

[Jimjams]

oh for god's sake fio- this drives me mad. Our first (private) salt suggested makaton- we tried and it didn't work for us as ds1 can't gesture, so everything switched to PECS. This year the SALT we were assigned (we saw 3 times) is not PECS trained so she told us to switch to makaton- even though we told her it wouldn't work. It is sooooo important to use the same system at home- thjis is how our children communicate for gods sake. grrrrrr on your behalf.


senco rang today - she had the same concerns as us. ie where's the lsa, what about break mealtime assisatants, what do they mean by "initially" increased funding and how much etc etc. Nice to know we're singing from the same hymn sheet.

[Kyliebump]

Jimjams - just a quick note to say that I hope things go well today at the meeting - will be thinking of you.

Fio2 - I am really shocked that the nursery have introduced PECS without telling you - that is really appalling. It's so obvious that any kind of communication system has to be used in both home and school environments otherwise it's just increasing the scope for even more frustration for a child trying to communicate. Was this the nursery report prior to an Annual Review or was it the Annual Review itself? If it was the Annual Review then why weren't you invited? Good luck in taking this up with the nursery - it's such a huge mistake on their part I imagine there will be a lot of embarrasment from them (which might lead to defensiveness - hope not.).

[fio2]

well I have rang the school this morning to dicuss the PECS matter and apparently this is the proposal for the term starting in september. They have only been using three simple PECS symbols at dinnertime (dinner, drink & pudding) to see if she would pick it up-she has apparently thats why they want to incorporate it more. I am going to meet with her new teacher when she begins in september and they are going to train me how to use it properly as this is quite important

[Jimjams]

well one word after that meeting - CACK!!!!

God my head is spinning.

Anyway the school were great. I have more and more faith in them everytime I visit so that was great. Statement s being rewritten. Won't be issued until October at the earliest as we are asking for an MTA and that has to go to statementing resources- next meeting due Spet 25th.

He'll start one morning a week from w/c Sept 22nd - giving them a chance to settle the other children. So I think we may book a long weekend to France at the beginning of September!

I am thinking if training to be a volunteer for the NAS tribunal support scheme. Anyone any experience of it?

[lou33]

Glad the school are being so supportive Jimjams. Why was the meeting cack?

[Jimjams]

oh it's all arguments about who'll pay for this, and who'll pay for that, and whether the diagnosis allows him to see this person or that person and whether its ok to write one vague line on the statement and mean something else entirely. For example for ongoing day to day support he has to see one ed psych, but if he needs another assessment then he has to see another ed psych- paid for by a different pot of money. It was just a meeting about future meetings really.

The statementing officer was very defensive to begin with, but kind of warmed up- and I think agreed to put SALT in part 2 (although I'll believe that when I see it).

[Jimjams]

oh and then of course suggesting that we paid for OT was the final straw. Why the bloody hell should we pay for something that everyone who has ever assessed him has agreed he needs. His nursery tried to get some general OT advice for all the SEN kids and were told there was no-one available but they could pay for it if they liked.

We have already spent getting on for 2 grand on basic services such as speech therapy. We just don't have the money to keep paying an odd 300 here for OT. And why the hell should we? Bloody bloody bloody hell. Next time one of these people has to visit their GP I feel like suggesting they pay for it. God if they saw out bank statements aagghhhhhhh

[lou33]

I don't know what to say Jimjams, am gobsmacked!

[MABS]

and i'm speechless too

[fio2]

how come if there was no-one available for OT why would there be if you or the nursery paid?? Hmmmm dont they realise how suspicious that sounds. Sympathise with you jimjams and have been in the same position as you since my dd started having probs- ITS SO FRUSTRATING!!!!!!