Great story, hatwoman!

As a teacher I often notice that spatial ability and numerical ability are not necessarily related. A child very good at algebra may be rubbish at shapes/spatial stuff, and vice versa.

does now concede...

reminds me of one of dd1's champion strops aged about 4. I said something about the postcard she was writing being a rectangle. she was adamant it wasn't. she got crosser and crosser. the postcard, as she wrote it, was of course landscape-oriented. everything became clear to us when she picked it up, rotated it 90 degrees so that it was portrait and screamed "^THAT'S a rectangle". she was beside herself with rage.

funny, actually, it's just occured to me that 5 years later she did some cognitive ability tests - the teacher said she did fantastically in maths - except for the more spatial stuff. maybe her brain has got a couple of mis-firing neurons...(although she does not concede the point about rectangles...)

I think you underestimate the pervasiveness of mathematical thinking. Basic ideas like pattern, shape, number etc.

If you had a 16 year old (or indeed a 6 year old) who couldn't recognise the difference between a triangle and a square, you would think something seriously wrong. If you had a teenager who thought you could take a large glass of water and pour all of it into a smaller glass of water, you would think they were a 'freak' too. If they couldn't understand place order and distinguish between 19 and 91, you would think that strange. If they couldn't understand the idea of something 'matching' - by shape or colour or number or otherwise - you would wonder what was wrong. If they had a map and didn't understand that it is representing a real life, much larger object on a smaller scale, then they would be weird... All of these are mathematical ideas that we take for granted in normal development.

Mathematical thinking is just as innate as language, and the fact that you have missed this only indicates how much we take it for granted. Yet English and Maths both develop these intuitive understandings and are rightly proper 'subjects'.

Bloss

English as a school subject is far more than spoken communication but nevertheless starts from precisely that pre-existing knowledge.

It is arguable whether or not count and shape awareness is taught or innate but, basically, maths starts as an entirely virgin - and therefore entirely taught, subject.

In even the most non-intellectual societies, a child without medical reasons who started school without that basic knowledge of his mother tongue - the basic knowledge that goes onto form the basis of "English" (or its equivalent in other countries) as a taught subject - would be a freak and perceived as such by peers. A child who started at the same point with no basic knowledge of mathematical concepts would not be so judged by peers and may, depending on the society, be able to function as an adult.

As a result - I suggest - society judges differently an admitted weakness in the two "subjects" that grow out of that basic knowledge.

" "English" as a subject is based on a knowledge that is expected of us as active members of the community. Of course it goes further but a minimum is essential to participate in the community."

Beyond merely the ability to speak and communicate - which you have said is not what you intend - I honestly don't get what you're saying.

No, what I mean is that "English" as a subject is based on a knowledge that is expected of us as active members of the community. Of course it goes further but a minimum is essential to participate in the community. To say "I'm rubbish at English" comes dangerously close to saying "I am not willing or able to work socially with my peers."

Maths, on the other hand, is, as hatwoman rightly points out, identified with adulthood and responsibility.

In other words, not to be able to do maths (though of course few people who say that mean that they cannot actually count or deal with concepts of quantity) is a self-deprecating admission that one is not fit for management or leadership.

Not to be good at English (though, again, most people who said that would not mean they struggled with their mother tongue on a communicative level) would be an admission that one is not willing to participate in society - far more subversive and dangerous!

<falls in love with Hatwoman>

MIFLAW - I don't agree that you'd have no concept of maths if you'd never been taught it. You might not call it maths but there would still be stuff you did all the time that would basically be maths. although admittedly quite basic.

I'm also not sure that the modern world demands more maths than a medieval rural community. you could be right - but if you think about a peasant life it involves maths - if you own livestock, and you own a scrap of land, understanding how much food you'll get out of it all - depending on if you plant stuff to feed your animals, or to feed you, whether you breed them, sell them, eat them - all this involves quite complicated arithmetic. and when it makes the difference between feeding your family and not feeding them - you'd better get it right. I reckon people have been doing maths for as long as they've been using language

It's probably more important to look at what the difficulties and strengths are really and to look at what are good strategies to use to help you to do the things you need to do. Useful link, thanks.

bramblebooks

i cant say 100% what it is as i have never been profesionally diagnosed. but from this website i checked 17 of the 23 questions for dyscalculia.

But MIFLAW, if 'English' under your definition means nothing more than being able to speak and communicate in the language, then the children would have completed all requirements before they even get to school.

English is about learning how to use language more effectively. Looking at what people have said, and how they have used the language to say it powerfully. Similarly, if you just need to count and add a few things, you can stop pretty early on. Mathematics is looking at extending the ideas of number and pattern and using it more powerfully...

There is intuitive knowledge of both in all of us. But they are both rightly subjects at school and beyond.

Of course English is a subject...

hatwoman, it's gorgeous, lyrical and lovely! Acinonyx, starts with 'T'

bamboobutton - more likely that it may be short term memory processing difficulties. For dyscalculia people have no 'number sense', ie when looking at a number of dots on a piece of paper they have no concept of whether it's 2 or 200 dots.

OP

English isn't a subject, is it?

I mean, if a child never went to school he or she would still be able to speak English (assuming he or she grew up in an English-speaking community) whereas he or she would not necessarily have any concept of maths beyond, perhaps, counting (though this would, of course, be influenced a bit by society - the demands of a modern society are greater in this respect than in a medieval rural community. But it holds as a basic distinction between the two.)

I was fine with maths (top set, A at GCSE a year early) despite no tuition all through secondary school (teacher said 'do the exercises in the book'). It all seemed logical and obvious.

Then I started A-level... and it stopped being logical and you needed both intuition and a better grounding than I had. Got a U.

Ironically I'm still really good at mental arithmetic having had that taught really well at primary school, whereas friends with maths degrees certainly could never calculate a percentage like VAT in their heads!

I'd like to see some kind of 'numbers in real life' qualification becoming more vital - eg what questions to ask if you see a graph showing some steep line that's advertised as impressive.

- that's brilliant - 12 as a cluster of relationships. that's put a huge smile on my face.

Hey I just read that in that paper - so I know he's one of two people.....

A quote from dad's work for hatwoman:

'An example
of this was expressed beautifully by a Polish mathematics educator who, when asked
what ‘twelve’ meant to him, replied that it is ‘a cloud of facts that cluster around like
butterflies.’ For him twelve was not a single symbol but a cluster of relationships,
‘twelve is six and six, it’s four threes, it’s fourteen minus two, and so on.’ He went on to
explain that, for him, arithmetic is not just computation, it is a choosing from the cloud
of facts at his disposal.'

The demand for maths teachers is intense and other subject specialists often get roped in (I did).

It's especially probelmatic, I think, at junior school level where it is not uncommon for the sharper kids to way outstrip the teacher wrt math skills. I clearly recall being in a special set for maths at junior school and the teacher (the headmaster no less) being totally unable to field any questions from the class. He wrote it, you copied - that was it.

Sorry, just read the threads.

Hatwoman and brambly-hedge are very interesting in what they have to say.

Try thinking in simple terms...a four year old can tell you how many sweets they have if they had four and their little brother stole two of them. However, they would struggle with putting it formally on paper with plus and minus signs.

Most maths is only about trying to explain everyday things using formal language and I think that is where people struggle.

Children are taught fractions and percentages in year 6, so adults should really try and learn to do them too!

However, a lot of maths isn't about arithmetic...it's about shapes, graphs, statistics. So, if you struggle with algebra you might find something else easier.

I am good at maths but could see first hand what happened to people who weren't.

For example, when we did algebra in years 11 and 12, those of us with mathematical minds 'got it' and progressed happily through the next few years. Those who struggled more, never 'got it' and found the next few years a mystery. And, I'm talking about people in the top set (of 10!) who went on to get mostly As at GCSE.

I think that it's a tragic shame and can only think that maths could be taught in a different way to the 80% of the population who panic when xs and ys are thrown into the equation. (sorry for the pun).

Possibly, it's best not to launch into the conventional stuff until people get the concept.

Who knows!

Oh - the 'c' word, I feel hives coming on.

Must take a look at that link - looks like a great way to further procrastinate and get no work done this afternoon.

OK got one. 33 pages. That will keep me busy for a while. Actually it is relevant to a trait I study - systemizing - which is associated with mathematical skill.

i am rubbish at maths.

i am required to do statistical calculations occasionally for my role.

for instance next weeks i will be doing a shit load of percentages.

and it doesn't matter - that dh has showed me 100000000000 times. i will still be ringing him to have him talk me through the formula veeeeeeeeery slowwwwwwwwwly.

then i can do it

now - if you want to stick in fractions into the pot - on the same say within the same piece of work - i would be fubared.

i can only remember one thing at a time

i don't know why

i am not a brain surgeon either

i don't know why i am wired this way

i don't know why my brain - or me - or both - won't or can't remember how to do percentages beyond next week - i don't know why.

if i could do a maths exam - that allowed me to do

graphs on day one

fractions day two

percentages day three

algebra day 4 - i could pass

but even then - with a certificate

i would not remember any of them by the week after

i can't do any thing about it - i have tried

3 times maths gcse and one NVQ - failed.

i have a degree in English though - go figure!

Acinonyx... do download a pdf of Cognitive Units, Connections and Compression
in Mathematical Thinking, it's really good reading. I'm really not being daft here guys!

Right, I have coffee now. I work with children with dyslexia, adhd, etc in a mainstream school and am very interested in finding ways around speech and language processing problems which impact on learning - particularly in maths. A child may not have a speech impediment, but the wiring is often a little or a lot different from the way others think.

I'm a very visual learner and think in 4D about things - ie, 3D plus time! I need a visual reinforcement when complex things are being described to me orally and it helps me to understand how children with social and communication difficulties or those on spectrum think - they also need visual reinforcement.

Learning styles is something which we are all so much more aware of in education now.

Acinonyx, dad's working on his latest book which is going to be called something like 'how humans learn to think mathematically'. He lectures worldwide on the subject.

He has also written quite a few books on



Calculus.

Hope that word hasn't caused too many flashbacks! (wonder if you've referenced his work, or the work of his colleagues such as Stewart and Skemp?!)

Come back bramblebooks - you can't leave us hanging like that!

Very interested in this thread - dad is Professor of Mathematical thinking and we yabber on for ages about how it all works. I have a masters in learning difficulties - particularly in dyslexia and in short term memory difficulties and how they impact on mathematical thinking.

However, I now have to do the school run!

Interesting about language and numbers. People can also see number relations pictorially - through shapes including 3-D shapes. Thats how it is for me. I've just submitted a PhD in something very mathsy, and I think my personal strength is in translating conceptual problems in words into numbers and vice versa.

Like some other pps though, I went totally off maths after o level. Calculus just didn't click with me - I could just about do it but the shock put me off maths for many years. All kinds of maths are not equivalent and it seems some kinds of maths suit some people more than others.

Bloss says: 'I've definitely had that when the maths gets to my limit! I've got it... I've got it... I've got it...[pause] Nope. It's gone.'

I totally get that. I think almost everyone surely experiences this - they just reach that point at different levels. I've finally realised that when I feel like that I should push through it - because that is when the really interesting stuff happens. I recommend it!

that's interesting grimme - and I wonder if it's particularly relevant when you move beyond a certain level. dh has a PhD in robotics (which is a form of engineering but obv. requires a high level of maths)whereas I have an A at o level but them went on to fail a/o level. At one level this was in part down to thinking I had better things to do with my life aged 16 - but it also seemed, to me, that maths, at that point, took a quantum leap. I could no longer rely on language and logic - it seemed to have moved into a whole other sphere. dh denies this - he says that yes it gets hard, but there isn't such a leap. When I hear him talk about maths to dds, I wonder if it's because he does think in numbers. Interestingly (and dh might disagree) I think that upto a point, I'm better at explaining maths to dds than he is. I think I add in steps/translate stuff that he doesn't see the need to. ie because I'm not as good I use language to simplify it - when he might not even see the need to.

a related point - is that over the years, talking to dh about maths, engineering, and other scientific stuff, I long ago put aside my stupid ideas that all this stuff wasn't creative, and didn't have aesthetic value. I don't quite "get" the truly complex stuff, well, of course I don't, but I do get glimpses of beauty in it. More Donne than Wordsworth but perhaps that makes it even more beautiful. and dh is one of the most creative people I know - creative in how he thinks.

It makes me very cross to see people denigrate science and maths - when they clearly know nothing about it at all...

You're right about basic maths being expressible in language, hatwoman. But, fortunately for dyslexics you don't have to think in words if your brain doesn't tick that way.

I know a guy who can barely string words together - he had a heck of a job writing his PhD thesis - but is a total genius at writing scientific algorithms. He doesn't think in words, it just comes straight out from his brain through his fingertips into code.

He is fantastically creative, in his field. Nearly got written off as terminally thick at school though.

I think the difference is that many people see Mathematics as an isolated academic subject, whereas they see English as everyday life.

However, I can confidently say that English was my weakest subject at school. I think I can communicate well and have a good vocabulary. I have never struggled with spelling. But I really lacked confidence in my English lessons at school. I could never write an imaginative story - all my essays were based on personal experience. I could never get the drift in poems - they always had to be explained. Ditto literature. I was a very late developer in interpretation. I did get A grades in my O and Higher examinations, but I lacked confidence throughout. I had the ignominy to be put into set 2 .

My level of English serves me well in everyday life, but the artistic side escapes me. This means I could safely declare myself to be rubbish at English - the academic subject, but not necessarily as a command of my mother tongue.

I invigilated quite a few English exams this summer and looking at the papers, I was thankful that it was them and not me doing them.

I think one thing that's really interesting is the issue of the connection between maths and language. I'm no maths genius but I'm numerate and I really believe in using (interchangeable) language to explain maths - and real life tools - because basic maths is all about language and real life - and if you parcel it off into something that is "other" you're on a losing streak imo. I taught dds adding, subtracting, multiplying and dividing without using any of those words - but using lots of different words. "if I've got 4 piles of 3 buttons how may have I got altogether?" one of my favourite tools was a Richard Scary book - just packed with things to count, add up, multiply - a picture of a skyscraper with 20 floors and 5 windows on each - endless maths and sums on that one. and they didn't even know they were doing "maths". same with percentages. if you use language well you can explain percentages to a 4 year old. I feel very cross when people mystify basic maths.

by the way - am I the only one who can't do mental arithmetic since having kids ? I used to be able to do it - now my brain just sort says - your on your own kid - I'm not playing with this one.

I sort of freeze mentally now. Give me a pen and paper and I can do it - take them away and I lose all ability to even think how it should be done !

the thing with teaching maths is constant checking of understanding. and not just asking - because invariably people who don't understand something will claim they do because they think they should and don't want to appear stupid.

If you don't stop at the first part of not understanding with maths, and go back and rethink it so that it is understood, then you just build confusion on confusion and it all goes wrong.

If you can get the idea that it is not the maths that is difficult - just the way it was explained - then you are on the right track. you have to have the confidence to say - no stop - I don't get that bit, tell me again in different words. That is the strategy I am trying to instill in my DS - both for his own self confidence and so that he has the tools to take control of the situation for himself.

noticed or was bothered

I was at a presentation on research funding the other week where the woman giving the talk kept getting millions and billions muddled up; I don't think anyone else was noticed, or was bothered!

I converted 40 centigrade to farenheit today in a casual conversation with work colleagues. Everything went quiet and when asked I explained how I did it. I was met with alot of blank faces with looks which could only have been thinking i was some sort of alien. I'm keeping my mouth shut next time.
you're right noone would have even admitted to not understanding a long word in the conversation.

You make it sound like converting imperial to metric is easy. It is NOT! (I can never remember how many pounds in a stone and all that stuff...)

Maths may not be your 'thing' but I know that someone with your intelligence can do it. I really do!

I know what you mean about that head-whirling, sand slipping through your fingers thing too... I've definitely had that when the maths gets to my limit! I've got it... I've got it... I've got it...[pause] Nope. It's gone.

ingles im sure its dyscalculia, i have to be very careful typing phone numbers in because i jumble the numbers up

eg. i see the number written as 12345 but as i go to type it in it goes 14325.

and writing a number down i have to tell people to go slow and say 3 numbers at a time or it gets jumbled up.

it even happens with my PIN, and thats only 4 numbers!!

i can do basic stuff if i can do it on paper and can have a calculator, doing it in my head is impossible. i would have trouble doing 27+8 in my head and would have to use fingers to count eight up from 27

I read an article the other day about how this is a bit of a British thing. apparently in lots of European countries educational policy is based on the belief (like throckenholt's) that everyone can "get" maths upto a certain level. they don't, therefore, stream for maths - ie don't label people as "not very good at maths". net result is more people getting decent qualifications in maths and less people saying stuff about not being able to do maths. I can;t remember where I read it, but will try and find it.

OMG that would be so exciting! I'm almost tempted.

But I have had many teachers, and I have tried over the years. Half the problem I think is that I have to convert everything into language in order to understand it, then I get confused having done that, and can't remember what I'm meant to be doing.

It's difficult to explain without sounding like a total moron. It's like it just slips away, whirls off above your head, unmoored and meaningless. Or like pouring water on a stone, it makes a mark but nothing sticks.

I can't remember number sequences either, like my mobile phone number for instance

ds2 was doing converting weights the other night. I TRIED. I got all unstuck with kg and k and stones and lbs and I couldn't remember what was what, or what the process was.

It would be your greatest challenge!

ahundredtimes - yes, you do need me! Or just any decent maths teacher... I absolutely 100% on-my-life believe that anyone who is smart enough to read is also smart enough to do basic maths - say, up to GCSE level. I just know that someone like you can do it just fine - it's just a matter of retracing steps and going back to where it started to unravel...

If only you were nearby - I bet I could teach you the syllabus for GCSE in about 12 weeks! It's a confidence-crusher though, when you feel these things are out of reach but are not sure why...

Oh see, I'm not so sure that it's cool to be crap at maths. Unless you're about 13 and think being crap at things is cool.

I really struggled with maths for years. I was an A grade A level student, and still taking my maths o'level. I knew I was bright, but in the four times I took my maths o'level I never passed it.

I don't think ignorance is OK, I didn't then either.

But I also don't for the life of me know why I don't understand it. I actually think I'm quite clever, but I don't understand why I can't apply that to maths.

Having children helped me go back over the basics. Something bad happens, I can't remember the process, I don't really understand the process then suddenly all you've got is one random number and a car travelling at 70 mph and then its confused with the time, and the miles and you actually have NO IDEA what you're doing and that car will never arrive anywhere at any speed because all the numbers are swirling about, and now you can't remember the original sum anyway.

I need Bloss.

Not proud at all. Rather ashamed really.

I agree with the OP. There is a inverse snobbery about it - as if not being able to do maths marks you out as being creative and cool- only saddoes do maths

I don't think it is just dyscalculia - people exagerate how poor they are at maths for effect as well. I do think it is or rather was taught really badly- which made it more complicated/frightening than it is.

That said I've got a maths degree so what do I know

there/their

Ah - clearly illiterate - spot the 'deliberate' spelling error...............

I agree with Trillion and OrmIrian - it's cool to be crap at maths apparently. I also agree that it is sometimes seen as a badge of femininity - I hear far more women than men happily chortle on about there poor maths skills.

I am very good at maths - unusually good at certain kinds of maths (just talke my word for it . And maths can be very creative if you can manipulate numbers easily.

I have been occaisionally irritated with assumptions that because I am good at maths/science I probably have little appreciation of the arts/literature.

I do agree that you have to be careful about this kind of thing once you have kids. I've stopped annoucing how crap I am at all kinds of sport since dd came along.

Abetadad - hmmmmmmmmmmm!

Actually have remembered a B was the best I could achieve as as I was put in for joint O-level and CSE maths (moved schools and was plonked in the same set as the girl who was told to show me around).

I got an A at GCSE maths and passed A-level physics <moves swiftly on away from grade> but if you asked me to add 3 + 12 + 7 I couldn't do it. Well I could, but I'd have to use my fingers and have my head at an angle with my tongue sticking out a bit.

I can't see patterns of numbers at all. I actively avoid situations where I need to do sums (like divvying up a bill after a meal out) because I know I look like such a plonker.

I'm hoping that getting involved with maths homework might teach me new ways of thinking about numbers.

I'm pretty ashamed to be so crap.
I also have spelling and apostrophe issues...I wonder if the two are connected
[hopeful]

edam - no you and me are not thick we are just special people

cheesesarnie - well done to you for giving it a go. Good luck with the exams.

slug - very interesting your choice of phrase "having to re-teach myself maths in order to teach". I did feel I had to do that. Strip everything right back and start again from first principles. Having done that I could then see why I didn't 'get' maths the first time round. Just like you, once I had understood myself, then teaching others who also didn't 'get' maths was a lot easier.

Teaching business people by usng examples from their own experience made it a lot easier, less theoretical and more practical and relevant.

That discalculia thing is so interestng. I struggled so much with maths and finally got a grade c on the third attempt. I can blame some of it on the teaching, 30 kids in a class with a teacher who was constantly racing us through the curriculum. There was never time to explain things more than once, I got further and further behind and accepted it was a lost cause. By the end of the first year I had grasped trig which was the first thing we had learnt. None of it would stay in my head, although I was very good in all my other subjects (except physics - too much like maths).

I think lots of people admit to being rubbish at spelling, but maybe that is just my friends.

I think it is shocking if kids diagnosed with discalculia are not helped at school.My dad was an undiagnosed dyslexic 50 years ago and was labelled thick by his teachers. He still has zero confidence now when it comes to writing

swedes - DS#1 is like you. All his teachers from about yr3 have said he is a natural mathematician but he isn't interested and easily discouraged and only gets moderate marks most of the time. It drives me mad!

For getting children interested in the fascinating and beautiful side of maths, we found "The Number Devil" by Hans Somebody-or-other very good. Someone else also recommended "Penrose the Mathematical Cat", which I've had a look at and is more practical.

I'm not a natural mathematician and not particularly quick at mental arithmetic - good enough for an A at O-Level, but not a real maths person. And neither are my children. We're not a 'Maths for fun' household.

I'm good at maths (got an A at O level) but had absolutely no desire to take it any further than that. My maths teacher tried to persuade me to not go ahead with A level Art (as it would do me no good whatsoever) but instead do A level and possibly S level Maths. Of course I took no notice whatsoever. And he was right.

I'd disagree with the statement that suggests people think it's OK to say they are hopeless at maths but not for them to say they are hopeless at English though. I hear many more people totally refusing to be the 'scribe' for their group or come and have a go at writing things on a board at the front (of a training course or at a planning meeting or wherever - not only at work but in community things) because "I can't spell" or "my handwriting's appalling" than I do hear people saying they are hopeless at maths.
We're all better at some things than others, but there is a lot to do with attitude in that people sometimes 'shut down' and won't try something they expect to not be able to do, and then it does becaome self fulfilling.

And I speak as someone with C at CSE maths because i got a U in o-level. I was 'rubbish at maths' until I got out into the real world and realised that maths is a. essential, b. unavoidable, c. fascinating and beautiful.

Because not being able to do maths is like not being tidy - a sign that you are spontaneous, creative, a free spirit. Not being able write well shows you are a lumpen nerd who understands rules but without a creative bone in your body.

Surely you knew that!

I suspect it's also a sign of feminity. Probably.

I find this dyscalculia interesting.

I have taught maths to science degree students in the first year - and it was frightening how bad their basic maths often was (didn't they need maths in A level science any more ?!). BUT it was amazing how often you could turn them around - and it was often just using a different form of words. I lost count of the time people said "why didn't they just say that in the first place ?!". Once you can get past that it is just confidence building. And the look of delight on someone's face when they can do something they always thought was difficult and beyond them is wonderful.

Back to the dyscalculia - my 7 year old has a numerate brain - the way he tackles things in life is numerate - but he is really struggling with some bits of maths at school. Some bits he sees (eg rotating shapes - he can do easily), but actually manipulating numbers sometimes floors him. I have been working with him a lot at home. Once he has learnt something it is "easy" - but take him one step beyond and he is baffled which shows he didn't understand the step before - he just learnt the answer. You can almost see his braining just going blank. And then sometimes something clicks into place and the flash of understanding happens. It is as if his brain just doesn't read it properly to begin with. He thinks he is bad at maths (which is tricky because he idolises DH who is a mathematician and he really wants to please him ). He isn't bad at maths - but he does have this mental block about bits of it. The trick is to get him past the blocks and build his confidence.

As bloss said - you have to build on a good understanding of the basics - one tiny step at a time. If you miss a step in the understanding it is really hard to put it back in later.

My mental arithmatic is really poor, so I often end up saying things like "I'm rubbish at maths" when in fact I actually use maths an awful lot in my marketing work for analysis, planning, budgeting and forecasting. I probably spend more time on the stats side of things than anything creative (and am certainly seen as the statto by my collegues), but can't shake of the feeling from primary school of being thick cos I couldn't do my times tables. Give me a calculator and I'm fine though!

have you tried going right back to basics bamboo?
Do you have children? How old are they?
with ds2 I try and incorporate maths into all our games. There are some fantastic board games you play, and we play shopping games and fraction games.
I think you probably do have dyscaluclia but also a problem with confidence around maths... so if you go back, you can build up your confidence to keep moving forward with your children.

MrsMattie I am feeling everything you're saying!

cheesesarnie that’s fab that you are taking yr GCSE. See that’s what I mean, that’s an option open to people, well done you for taking action rather than just saying “oh well I’m no good at this vital part of my job but never mind”.

I think it is (or maybe was!) badly taught at school, that may be the reason people are put off. But yes hopefully it’s being better taught, certainly my DC have learned things like money (ie obviously useful applications of it) at an early age.

A pal on being asked how his DC was doing at school said “OK but he’s struggling with maths. But then he would, DW and I are both rubbish at it.” - talk about self-fulfilling prophesy!

discalculia is a specific thing; it can hardly affect 40% (roughly, I haven’t done the maths ) of my colleagues can it? Not disputing it exists of course.

i really can't my brain just goes 'WTF is this!!!!' and shuts down.

dh has tried to 'cure' me by explaining how it works, but i just zone out.

My dd (8) has a diagnosis of dyscalculia and we are struggling to get through the basics. As other posters have said, it's impossible to move on til she has grasped basic concepts.

Due to this and numerous other issues, we home educate her and this works well for her as we can present maths in a way that is best for her.

Oh, bamboo - it's that kind of thing that really makes me sad! I am totally convinced that you can do maths - you just need the right way in...

It really is terrible that the maths teaching is so poor...

i have dyscalculia and i couldn't work out a percentage if my life depended on it!

i wish it was more recognised like dyslexia is and people could get help insead of being scorned as not trying or being thick.

i got a G at GCSE maths and doubt i could pass again if i retook it, my maths is that bad, which is a right bummer as i would love to train as a midwife.

throckenholt - I agree with you, that almost everybody is capable of basic maths. And equally they are capable of appreciating how elegant and exciting and fun it is - even if it's not their 'thing'. BUT you have to be a really good teacher to build up confidence once it has been shaken (and it often gets shaken), and to convey that enjoyment. Of course I am biased, but I think maths is a particularly difficult subject to teach (I have taught maths and humanities), and there are precious few around who can do it well.

I have a real passion for 'converting' maths-phobic people. I've done it with quite a few children and it's just glorious to see them go from 'I hate maths and can't do it' to 'I like maths and do pretty well at it'... Such a confidence-booster!

It's actually hard being a maths teacher because when people ask what you do, you get such negative reactions - they shake their heads and say 'oooh, I hated maths'. Now I always say, 'That's because you were't in my class! You would have loved it if we could have done it together!!'

<<thinks positive>>

i got a d in school so am hoping that although its however many years and 3 children later that i can beat my school grade!

btw i did english lit and lang at A-level but still cant be bothered with proper grammer etc half the time

The real problem IMO is that maths is linear. Everything stands or falls on your ability to understand the more basic concepts. For instance, the ideas of fractions and ratios have to be rock solid, or you just can't do trigonometry. If you can't do trigonometry you can't do basic things like find the area of a triangle, or more complex bearings questions. And at A-level, you can't do calculus... And for everything you have this problem.

So my problem, as a secondary teacher, is that if my pupils had a rubbish maths teacher in Year 4, then I can't teach them what they need to know... With a motivated pupil and conscientious teacher, and a bit of luck (identifying the problem quickly), you can address this with remedial work. But anything less than the best of circumstances, and your secondary mathematics is basically a lost cause.

OTOH, if you had a rubbish English teacher last year and didn't get Macbeth, it's not really going to affect your ability to do As You Like It next year.

I got a C at O'level maths and had begged and pleaded my mother to ask for me to be put into the CSE class instead....I scraped it, and now, cannot even do a %. I just blank out when I see anything to do with maths.
But then I'm also so supremely lacking in logic that both dp and my Mum think I shouldn't be left alone at home for any length of time. I'm the person who tries to blow a burning teatowel out over the sink while it never crossed my mind to turn the tap on.

Oooh, cheesie, I didn't catch that you're resitting GCSE. That was my specialism, getting em through with a decent C.

Good luck

Just to add - I really feel like I have some sort of maths equivalent to dyslecia. I find even the most basic multiplcation and division totally baffling, the numbers swim in front of me and I feel panicky and weird when I have to make additions/subtractions quickly. However, this discomfort around numbers and 'fear' of maths isn't really recognised, is it?

It's not a 'badge of pride', it's a sad fact. I am absolutely shit at maths. I got A grades in English and arts subjects and scraped science, but failed maths miserably. I always thought it didn't matter much, as I did arts A levels, an artyu degree and have worked in the media ever since. However, now that my DS is approaching school age, I am sad and embarassed that I won't be able to help him with maths homework.

I did start a Maths GCSE by distance learning last year, but found it too hard! I need a teacher to explain it to me <thicko emoticon>, but unfortunately, with a full time job, two kids and other priorities, it just aint gonna happen.

I do blame my schools. The teaching of maths was dire when I was at school. It was dry, uninspiring and very few people liked it or were good at it. I'm not sure what it's like these days? Got a feeling not much has changed, though.It's a shame the curriculum doesn't allow for more inspiring ways of teaching maths, especially at secondary school level. Maths has the potential to be a fascinating subject, as well as the fact thatbasic numeracy is a valuable life skill.

Good luck with your exams cheesesarnie!

slug,thats how im being taught.it makes more sense in my sometimes senseless brain.

we have a culture of thinking maths is "difficult" and most people are happy to accept that it is too hard for them - sadly.

The problem is perpetuated because lots of primary school teachers are arts graduates and learnt early on at school themselves that maths was difficult. They never learnt to be really at ease with messing around with numbers and so it is almost impossible to instill that confidence in primary - so the cycle continues.

The sad thing it I think most people would be reasonably good at basic maths if they were shown how to understand it by someone with a real feel for how numbers work. It is often a matter of confidence.

There may be only one answer with maths - but there is often a multitide of ways of getting to that answer - not just one right way - and understanding that really helps I think.

ABetaDad, I'm very similar to you. I had average maths grades at school yet ended up teaching in in FE. I suspect there are a fair few people out there with discalculia and the experience of having to re-teach myself maths in order to teach it to students who had already failed once, gave me a large amount of sympathy for those who struggled.

I'm not sure there is any need for most people to understand the concept behind basic everday maths, all they need is the ability to just do it and get a reasonable answer. What is the point in teaching students that 7x8 is the same as counting up 7 lots of eight, when all they do then is count using their fingers, take ages to do it and keep getting mixed up and lost. Far better IME to learn the tables by rote, preferably in a chanting form which is easier for the brain to retain, then use the information rather than get flustered getting endlessly lost and wrong.

Maths is also surrounded in an air of mystery because of the language it uses. My students used to always be surprised that the first lesson of the year was a Greek and Latin one. These were students who had struggled with the metric system their entire school careers, yet after an hour linking centuary with cents with centurians, they finally worked out that centimeter and percent had something to do with 100. And more importantly, remembered it at the end of the year.

It's a pity there's so much emphasis on the concept rather than the mechanical process in schools. But then sometimes I think I'm dangerously old fashioned in that respect.

i will quite happily admit i am rubbish at English.
not speaking it of course, although im sure there are plenty that'd argue.

but the gramma, spelling, understanding what nouns and verbs and stuff all mean....im pants

I'll brie delighted if you pass next month, you cheese-and-pickle!

DH always said he was crap at maths but was actually perfectly good and capable. He still says it now which annoys me a bit as he quite clearly isn't and it has affected dd, who now thinks maths is hard (which actually it isn't, but you need a good teacher).

why thankyou,thankyou

edam-yep us dairy products are just so cheddar(geddit-clever/cheddar).

Everyone is good at different things - I'm good at maths and science, and suck at art. However, it does really, really annoy me that it is almost a badge of pride that 'no, I've never been able to do maths' or 'I don't understand science' like people think that if they did it would make them geeky.

<applauds cheesesarnie>

I doesn't bother me that other people can't do Maths. I can. So I am a rare and valuable commodity. <preens>

Actually, I can't see what the problem is. It's just the application of logic, innit?

I think so edam, my son is the same. his comprehension and vocabulary is fantastic, he is definitely not stupid, but I have to spend so much time reassuring him of this..
Weirdly ds1 is exceptionally able at maths, I'm a decent enough mathematician but his brain just seems to work in a totally different way again, everything has to have a logical mathematical conclusion in his world. He'll definitely not be a great creative thinker

yay cheesy, we dairy products ROCK!

im not very clued up on maths so im re-taking my maths gcse.i dont want to be the mum that says 'no i cant help with my dc homework because i dont understand it'.if i cant be bothered to try then why should they.

i passed my level one a couple of weeks ago<applause please> and am taking my level at the end of this month.i'll never be a genius but im trying

Basically Trillian is right - it's seen as almost cool to be bad at Maths.

And I'm sorry I disagree with a lot of you, I think for MANY 5 year olds numbers and puzzles are A LOT more naturaol and accessible thatn reading and writing. It isn't given the same priority though.

DD1 is on the 'bottom' table because of her slow reading and writing. She has to sit on that table for maths too and she's streets ahead of them. It's ridiculous

Oi, abetadad, I got a B in O-level, is you calling me fick?

Never been sure whether I truly deserve it, someone set the fire alarm off during the exam and I think all our papers were treated sympathetically as a result - but I'd already finished! Girl who set the fire alarm off was expelled.

Maths is creative/can be creative but I think the way it was taught at school back in my day hid that fact from you until you got to A-level - by which time most people had given up.

Judging by ds's school (so far, he's only in Yr 1) things have really improved - they are positively encouraged to explore lots of different methods and apply maths, rather than just copying out lots of sums.

My very very guilty secret about maths is I failed O'level Advanced Matematics and just got a very average B Grade in Ordinary O'level matematics. I struggled with some parts of maths like Calculus and yet I then went on to teach it at Postgraduate level.

I think my own 'relative struggle' with maths helped me a lot in understanding why others find it so hard and made me a better teacher. Yes, I do think, the 'I was turned off maths at school' is true for a lot of people. Often, I think people who are good at maths who become maths teachers do not 'get' why other people struggle with it.

My own experience of teaching was first of all to empathise with those people who did not 'get' maths and then communicate in a way that took the fear out of it.

I was brought up in the late 70s and early 80s and I recall Maths lessons with horror. There always seemed to be this assumption that if something was explained or done on the board you should just 'get it' because it was logical. But it was rarely logical for me. I never felt I could ask why does such and such formula have to be used, and always felt stupid for asking or disrupting the pace of the lesson. I actually used to feel sick before lessons began, and started to believe I was just thick.

Another thing with maths is that (in my view) it doesn't seem to harness creativity, it concerns remembering set ways of working through equations and formulas to achieve a determined answer. But I was good at English because, once I knew the rules, I found I could manipulate them creatively.

The good thing is that because of my experience I take great care to ensure my children have a different reationship with maths and strive to use different curriculums and approaches to it, since I educate them at home. (That means I can never say out loud that I dislike it and strive to be maths positive) Also I have tried Vedic Maths which is Hindu in origin, and found it easier in many ways.

I used to hate admitting I found maths difficult but don't anymore, because I know there must be a reason why so may otherwise intelligent people struggle with it. Then again maybe I just need more toes and fingers...

Actually you have a point there, Ingles. Only the dyslexics I know try to deal with it - most have strategies for checking spelling or remembering tricky words. Wish we had got to the state with dyscalculia where there were similar ideas available, that could be passed on.

Friend of mine's daughter has dyscalculia, properly diagnosed, but her teachers refuse to believe it and just treat her as 'thick' even though she does very well in subjects where maths doesn't affect her grades.

Lots of people happily admit to being rubbish at spelling and grammar. See endless MN threads on this!

But I agree, if you know you struggle with everyday maths, or spelling, or something that you can learn if you could be bothered, why not do something about it?

I think many more people suffer from dyscalculia than is widely recognised. Research into dyscalculia is very recent, whereas people struggling with dyslexia are universally acknowledged now.
My youngest has dyscalculia, he little cannot grasp the basics and hold them for any period of time. He obviously can't see any pattern. He may seem to understand something, but go back to it a month later and you have to start all over again. Luckily he has a good memory, so if I teach him maths by rote he can remember the facts, but then can't apply them because he just doesn't understand or "see" the concept.... for example he knows his 5 times table of by heart, but then just does not get that is the same as counting in 5's.

Because Maths is geeky/nerdy/swotty. English is arty/creative/cool.

IMO it's not acceptable to say you are rubbish in English (language) because you are confessing to being inadequate at communicating in your native language. It's a skill that should, really, be acquired from birth, simply be listening, speaking, reading, and generally participating in your community life.

Maths and foreign languages (like, for example, hairdressing or car mechanics) on the other hand are subjects which usually have to be formally taught to you by someone else. They are not, generally speaking, things which you can acquire with little or no effort, unlike the ability to use your own language.

I used to "boast" that I was crap at maths, until I had kids...now I see that it's a bit of a self-fulfilling prophesy, and I bravely pretend to know what's what.

Do you think the problem might be that maths is harder to teach well? I think I was turned "off" at school. But I feel it as a lack.

not only maths - in this country it is almost a matter of pride to be able to say I am rubbish at foreign languages too

even for academics who surely must realise that their inability to read what is published in their field in other countries is a bit of a drawback

Clary - it has always struck me as odd as well.

Some year sago I used to teach business people basic business matematics. These were high flyers in international business, people who were destined for the top mnagement positions. Many were quite willing to admit being useless at maths. In fact half my job was getting them over their irrational fear of doing simple things like a percentage. Show them a graph and ask them to interpret it and they almost fainted.

here are some good explanations.....

nooooo I'm not talking about standard deviation (what is that anyway?)

Just regular old fractions and percentages etc.

I have a high IQ - 152 - but i have trouble with maths! I got a B at O'level and have studied statistics as a grown up. I STILL don't get Probability - it melts my brain. I did understand standard deviation when it was explained to me. But now i have forgotten.

I have to work oout lots of percentages for work, and i still find it hard. I KNOW that I am not dim but I am definitely not Maths minded.

That's the thing - they may well be hopeless at maths but don't seem to think that matters.

I'm thinking they are all OK at english as they do it for a living - but surely maths is basic too.

DH once wrote down a method for doing a percentage (as in - if crime figures have gone up from 2,456 to 2873, what percentage rise is that?) for a colleague and it was copied in awe by about half a dozen people and pinned up on noticeboards as if it was the Law and the Prophets or whatever that phrase is.

Mind you I explained the difference between an adjective and an adverb the other day and got a similar response <sigh>

Fluffy will go back to thread - where was it??

I meant can't!

Not necessarily, Lynnette. I had a friend doing a law degree - very articulate, I suppose highly intelligent in other respects, who'd failed O level maths. Not sure she'd even managed a tolerable CSE.

Mathematical illiteracy is a real problem - I don't mean not being able to do mental arithmetic, but failure to comprehend statistics and probabilities.

i openly admit to be poor at typing/ spelling - but then I can hide it!

Hi clary, I found the coffee thread!

I think it's easier for people to admit to being poor at maths, english is used all the time so it's harder to admit to needing support/having a problem. It's assumed that people can read, even in the hospitals, everything is written.

but presumable they all have maths GCSE/o level I think maths can be forgotton, but we use English constantly.

But these are intelligent people doing a job which relies heavily on them being able to spell, construct a sentence, read and do maths.

If they can't do the first 3 they would never dare admit it I don't think.

I think it's because with English, you can muddle through, but with Maths, if you don't get it, you don't get it. With Maths there is only one answer, but with English there are many.

That's my thoughts, anyway!

you would never freely admit to being rubbish at English?

A colleague said this to me today and manyothers have said it before when they ask me to explain how to work out percentages or whatever.

Why is it a badge of pride to say this? I work in an office where people deal with the written word and facts and figures all day. If they couldn't read they would really struggle - but apparently it's OK not to be able to do maths.

If they are really that bad, why don't they do an evening class?