tbh 10 to 20 mins doesn't sounds too bad. Walking would be nicer but I think 20 mins would be ok as a maximum.

Sadly mrz that option is not available - though I agree with some of the above that not all the extra places at dd's school will be taken up and she may - fingers crossed - end up in a class of around 25

Pigs, the private school is a 10-20 min drive away so it sounds like you and I are on the same page as everyone tells me to avoid a school run as long as possible.

Eleven is too small and thirty too large low twenties ideal.

The fact that, in the current economic climate, there will almost certainly be a place at the private school if you are disappointed really helps with a decision like this.

How far away is the private school?

I'm relieved that I'm not facing a long journey with ds in September every morning. The private school was 25 mins drive away.

We might well move ds at 7 to that school if we think it will be best for him but at that age he and I will be happier with the school mini bus or lift sharing - I didn't want to do that in reception.

Sometimes I do still have moments where I wonder if I've done the right thing and I'm sure when his private school mates are on reading level 43 or whatever, I will doubt it but I keep telling myself that a local school, being part of the community and local friends are more important!

leaning 99 per cent towards the primary, above all because it's so close. And lovely. We just want to clear up a couple of issues about some technical stuff which I won't bore the rest of you with. Then I'll draft a letter - I haven't got the energy for a fight over the money but I'll try for the year clause thing and then if for whatever reason I'm not happy with our choice I won't feel quite so bad.

Have you decided what to do yet voodoo?

And not all mummy/granny helpers have a clue what they are doing, some are more of a hinderance.

Builde - state school reception classes don't necessarily have a teacher and a teaching assistant. It's not statutory. Also, not all classes have parent or grandparent helpers.

Hello,

My infant teacher friends (and mother!) say that a class under 20 is very boring to teach. Also, there can be issues with friendship groups and parties with too few children. E.g. if you invite 4 girls but not 5 it looks a bit horrible! Their ideal class size is 25.

Also, state school reception classes have two adults; a teacher and a teaching assistant. There are also lots of other adults helping out in the earlier years. (Helping mummies, nice grannies, child-care trainees)

We lost the deposit - managed to tell them the night before the first day of term so didn't have to pay a term's fees. I am really kicking myself that we didn't ask them to keep it open for a year.....damn! Is it too late now??

Voodoo - do write and ask them to consider waving the notice as she hasn't actually started it may be unfair contract terms and un-enforcable, I removed my child from private on day 3 of term because she hated it and went to court and won.

Did you lose the money too, pigs?

I'm not saying they'll agree but I shall give it a go

That's a great idea Voodoo re the fees on account (damn why didn't I think of that!!)

I have had to make a similar decision recently and we went with the local state school. I'm happy with the decision for now but know we can always move after reception if we're disappointed.

Thanks everyone, broadband up and running again

Always with mn there's a huge variety of responses directly contradiciting each other!

I am inclined to the local option for the reasons many have mentioned above to do with convenience, local friends etc plus I do worry the other school will have other drop outs as I have seen the class lists and it's a very international bunch who, I suspect, will come in and out according to their parents' jobs

We just have a few issues with the way the classes will be organised in the local school but if I can resolve them we will just have to wave goodbye to the money - I am also going to ask the private school if we change our minds within a year if they might let us have those fees on account, I think they need business pretty badly so might be amenable

Trickerg - our pre prep teacher handwrites our my ds's spellings to show how to join the letters, not sure how well cursive font would come out although I can't say I've ever tried.
In year 4 they get a typed list with either 12, 16 or 20 on depending on how they do.
Having said that sometimes they are photocopied as I think there are others with the same spellings (mainly tailored) I will have to have words tomorrow!
Bellabina - normally (at the schools we looke at anyway) you have to give a full terms notice to remove the child from school. Therefore the OP would lose one terms fees as she didn't tell the school at Easter that the would not be there in September.

Normally, you would only have to loose you deposit.

Once a child starts education in the private sector, you are unlikely to take them out
of that system.

Sorry, trickerg - I will not let that pass. She's the best teacher I've ever come across either as a pupil or a parent.

She handwrites in order to demonstrate exactly how she wants the children to join up their letters. And she has beautiful writing.

(And, yes, she does Do Modern Technology too!)

LadyhooHa - Why would a teacher handwrite all these things. Surely s/he has access to modern technology? Looks to me like that teacher is not living in the real world. No-one writes out spelling lists by hand now, and yes, sometimes we do personalise lists.

That teacher has a serious issue of time management.

PS Talbot - really? DS's class (11 pupils) has one, as does DD's class (16 pupils). They also have reading assistants.

An afterthought: DS has just brought home a pile of work from this term (he breaks up on Friday). What's most striking is how much is hand-written by his teacher. His spelling lists, handwriting lists and so on are all hand-written by her - and are written specifically for him. Each child has different lists, comprehension tests and so on, depending on the level that they are working at. I think this would be less likely to happen in a class of 30 - no teacher would have the time to do it, even if they wanted to!

thank you for messages so far have internet problems so will read properly when things improve and muse and report back

I enrolled my DD in private at year 3 last Sept. She has come on leaps and bounds academically although it is not an academically pushy school but she has had friendship issues and I think it has been exacerbated by the fact it is a small class of 13. But, I do believe that her overall education is far better and she really enjoys all the activities she does at school that she would not do at a state school.

Cost is a big factor but having seen how well she has developed we will continue to put her and our younger daughter (when she gets to that age) through private education.

My son went to a state school and we could not afford private then and there is NO comparison in the quality of care and education given to an individual child in my opinion.

think 11 per class is just too small - children can be so nasty - at least in a larger class each there is a larger pool of potential friends. In a class of 11 there might only be 5 girls?

my ds is in a class of 24 at an independent school which is within walking distance - perfect combination IMO

I wouldn't underestimate the power of having a school within walking distance.

All the friends on the doorstep

Playdates and parties will all be doable (I know someone who was recently expected to drive their DC 40+miles for a birthday party because the "catchment" is SOOOOO much bigger).

Easier to join extra-curricular activities in your area with people she knows (e.g. all hte Brownies will be from local school....or dance school or whatever).

Have you asked what the class size will actually be in the new school - as has been said they may actually be smaller than 30 anyway if they have responded to demand.

Personally - I think I would be going to the local. Although the financial comitment you have already made makes it tough....but that is only 1 term out of the next 21 that you have lost IYSWIM

So agree Littlefish. 24 for me is PERFECT size!
Children become ultra-demanding and attention-seeking when numbers go under 20.

And how do you get children to work in groups? How do they learn to bounce ideas off each other?

Why Thank you Smee <preens>
Littlefish is totally right about behaviour being magnified. ds2 had problems with a boy who was a bit of a bully. He became this huge larger than life character in ds' mind, mainly because he just couldn't get away from him and there very few others to dilute the situation. It's worth bearing in mind anyway.

Good post Pooka.

I'm a teacher with experience of working in both state and primary schools.

I've taught classes of 12, 16, 20, and 23 - 30.

In my experience, anything under 20 is too small. I think that small classes are extremely pressured for both children and teachers. Any difficulties with behaviour, or personality clashes between children are magnified. I also think that there is not enough of a social mix for children in such small classes.

For me, the perfect size is about 20 - 22.

It's interesting to read different peoples comments about the merits of class size and I would agree smaller is better at first slightly larger is great for preparation for larger secondary school and for simply having more opinions in a discussion.
My children are in coed school and have been in classes of about 14 with full-time TA . Generally the classes amalgamate above year 4 or 5 as expats leave and other children move on. Few newcomers are accepted after year 2. This works really well as the children really need smaller classes when younger and it means there is enough help for changing, hearing everybody read daily and so the curriculum pace keeps going. They fit much more in the day. One teacher once told me that she had transferred from the state sector and in her previous excellent school the children did in a full day what our class did by 12pm! It left lots of time for sports, play rehearsals, adding extra languages or just exploring someone's question etc. My eldest child was delighted when the two classes joined to a pretty large 26 in a class, still with TA. His secondary school has 20 in a class so he is well prepared for finding his place. He also said it was quite nice not to be so intense... you could take a breather in the large class but not the small one where you could be asked something at any point.

The local school issue is really important. I'm sure the registrar will tell you what the catchment is so you can work out if she will have local friends. A prep school will have a larger catchment and she may have local friends after all!

No brainer - go for the local option.

Is the state option likely to be fully subscribed given that the new class only just agreed?

Also, would if I were you do some research into the private school wrt their break even levels. Have a local school that was closing (though now they're considering letting boys attend) because of falling class sizes resulting from recession and poor investments. At one stage the class size had dropped, I understand, from 11 to 6, at which point the school was no longer financially viable. If the state school is oversubscribed I would be concerned about prospects of re-entering the state system locally if private school does not work out for whatever reason.

's okay stopping at - you were right and I was wrong, and you didn't sound forceful, just correct. Though actually I do know a couple of private schools who don't use TA's, so the ratio question is definitely a question to ask voodoo. Listen to ingles2, she is wise .

it's not a no brainer imo...
My boys were in tiny classes which worked ok when they were in infants. As they got older it became much more of a problem. I moved them to a larger school (90 pupils a year as opposed to 10) for yr 3 and 4 and it has been the making of them. Especially my youngest who is a quiet, quirky little lad.

Sorry Smee didn't mean to be forceful! I kind of get a bit defensive over our choice to move our DC's.

Ooh, okay - I was wrong...

Every pre prep school we visited (5 in total over two counties) also had a TA whatever the class size. In fact the largest class size we saw was 15. One school even had a reading assistant who read one to one with each child daily.

Well I must have visited 15 private schools in the past year (in 2 counties) and not a single one has not had a TA at primary level, even for classes of 10.

I guess it really depends on your child. Does she seem to like one particular friend, or a big group?
My DS's are in classes of 11 and 15 at their school with a teacher and TA in with all of the pre prep classes.
DS1 is in year 4 and they split the classes into streaming, so, for example he is in a class of 10 for maths. Just the teacher I think though (maybe a gapper?).
At our school they mix up the classes in the prep school and also teach the girls together for sport.
If you can afford it then I would 100% say go for it. It is not just the class sizes that are a factor, the scope of education is wider and the opportunities will blow your mind.
My DS2 (6) has just won medals for the high jump, throwing and long jump at his new school. Last year he had a "non-competitive sports day" where everyone got a sticker at the end. Hmmmm I know where he prefers.
We do make a concerted effort to include him in the local area though, cubs/ scouts/ swimming etc.
Good luck with your decision.

talbot, I've heard the opposite - that most private schools don't have TA's. You may well be right though.

In the long run I reckon local school will make you happier OP; walking distance to school itself & to more friends, supporting the local school (your principles) & save money.

surprised by people saying it's a no-brainer... my dd1 is in a class of 12 at state school, and it's not working out well socially for her at all as it such a small group of girls. I wish she was in a bigger class, I think she would be a lot happier. I suppose it was easier when she was much younger, but now in Y5 small does not equal better.

I would go for the local school - being part of the community is so important. When your dd is older she'll be able to walk to friends' houses easily, meet up with them at the playground etc. If you drive her somewhere else for schooling you will lose that connection.

I would assume the class of 11 will have a teacher and a TA as well. I've never come a cross a private school without a TA for each class no matter how small although I might be wrong.

If there had only been one form per year then 11 may be too small but as it is there are other forms so she will make plenty of friends. DS has been in classes ranging from 8-30 and we noticed that 11-12 was the perfect number.

Just re-read (d'oh!) and you say private school's a drive away. Honestly I know one to one is great, but if there's TA's in the primary the ratio's not that different. Walk to school and be part of the local community. So important and wonderful for all of you.

How close is the private school - really important to DS is having friends on the doorstep, and being part of the community. If it's a lovely primary I'd stick with it. She'll have a great time, make masses of friends and mix with lots of different kids. Save your money I'd say.

My 3 kids are in classes ranging from 11 - 16 with no friendship issues. All classes have a teacher and a dedcated teaching assistant.

For reception a class of 10/12 is ideal but as they get older it can be a bit of a pain - especially if there is an uneven number of girls and they start pairing up.

As you have paid you might as well just follow through for the first year. You will learn a lot about how it is in the other years from talking to other mums and if you decide to move her for to the state school for year 1 it really won't have made much difference not being there for reception.

I think this is the sort of thing that changes as kids grow older. I think younger children (infant age) often do benefit from smaller classes but as they grow older having a range of children to forge friendships with is massively important. There are quite a few threads on here about kids having real problems with small school dynamics. Mind you, i guess there are also a good few re kids feeling lost in a larger class- you can't win! However, my personal opinion is that it's a no brainer not to try a good local community school in the first instance.

Smaller classes everytime.
And don't think the children in the other classes will only be 'superficially' involved. My DCs are friends with the kids in all the other entry forms. They often mix them up for sports, music etc and of course when setting applies the mix up all the time.
Then there are houses. You meet all the kkids in your house if the school pursues this actively.

DD (Y3) started at a private school with a similar set-up, 2 parallel classes with 10-12 in each. There was quite a high turnover in her year group (quite a lot of expats in the year) and although there were always new kids joining the year group never quite caught up and they ended up merging the classes into one bigger class of 14. Although it worked well for DD in the infants it became problematic when they got to Y3. There were a couple of very strong characters that ruled the roost and DD was uncomfortable as she was the only child working at a particular level.

We made a hard decision to move her to another, much bigger, private school at the start of this term (3 classes of 25 in the year!) and it was the right thing to do. DD is very academic though and really didn't want or need the kind of individual support that her first school offered. I think in your position I would give the state primary a whirl and if it doesn't work out move her across to the private school.

My DD is at a small independent secondary and year 7 was tricky. I actually felt that the low numbers caused problems as it's hard to get away from those you don't get on with (as you say girls are vile especially when you throw hormones into the mix)There are only 28 children in her school year (split into 2 classes) and only 12 of them are girls.

Howevershe is just coming to the end of year 8 and has really settled down She has a really strong, close group of friends (both boys and girls) and because it's such a small school she has lots of friends in all year groups.

Sorry about the typos; there were more than 11 kids in my class when I was at school ...!

Have just moved my DS from an "outstanding" state school (30 kids per class, 90 kids in the year) to a private school with 11 kids in the class. It's a no-brainer. The private school is amaaaaaaaaaazing in comparison - one teacher & one TA for 11 kids, compared to one teacher & one TA for 30 kids in the state school. Therefore the kids get a lot more one-to-one attention from the teacher. The school is not academically pushy, but my goodness, the stuff the children are doing (both academically and extra-curricularlylyly) is awe-inspirint. There are no friendship issues - for the boys or the girls. The children play with kids from other classes at breaktimes, which is lovely. If you can afford it, I would recommend the smaller classes, definitely. (DH is a teacher and he agrees with me!). Teachers in large classes, no matter how well-behaved the class, and no matter how good the teacher, simply do not have time to meet the individual needs of every child - it's impossible.

If I make it sound like it's perfect, it's because it is everything I could wish for in a school. And most importantly, my DS loves it. (He did not love his old school!).

If the original school has only just had the extra class agreed, then is it likely to be full ?
Do you have the - what would it be £10 - 15K per year per child for the next 14+ years ? If you originally wanted her to go to the state school, so presumably are happy there, then that would surely be a HUGE consideration ?

How many adults in the classroom? If only one then a class of 30 with a teacher and TA isn't that much different.

My DD has only 12 in her year at a state primary. She's actually in a mixed class with the year above but even so there are only 16 in the class. All the kids seem to play with kids from other years and from other classes. So DD who's Yr 3 will happily play with infants and the older kids.

My youngest is in a class of seven. It is great - she has really come along. She has friends in all year groups - not just her own.

Yep, it's a no brainer!

Mine are in classes of 11 and 16 respectively, and there have been no friendship issues. The classes are very closely bonded as there aren't many children in them. Ours isn't a hot-house either - it's a lovely, friendly place. The parallel classes do mix a fair bit, which gives extra friendship opportunities. If you can afford it, I'd go for it!

I know this may seem like a no brainer to some but I'm torn between a private school with a class of 11 for dd1 and a state school with a class of 30

TBH we were not considering private but dd1 didn't originally get into the state school and panicking I enrolled her at the private. They've now decided to add on an extra class so she's in - Howver now we're a bit confused as we'd sort of bought in to the private myth

If we drop out of the private school we will have to pay them a penalty of £4800 - term's fees plus a deposit. That's an incentive for staying. Otoh it is a drive away, the state school is an easy walk.

Also I'm actually concerned 11 in dd's class (as it stands now) is actually too small. There'll be around six girls (there is a parallel class too so a few more she may know superficially) but is that a big enough friendship pool, knowing how vile little girls can be? I've seen the work they're doing at the private school and it's extremely impressive (nor is it a hot house) and I'm not surprised with all that one-on-one attention they get but I do worry it may not be ideal from a friendship pov.

But I also worry she may - like others - not get enough attention in the state school. Anyway, ultimately, class size pros and cons will be the decider. We can afford private but would rather not pay if we don't have to, not least because I believe in supporting the local school. Thanks in advance for any help.