Explaining school selection process to a four year old

[Cll]

My (only just) four year old dd has a load of "selection interviews" for various private schools in January. I know it's hideous, but it's just the way it is round here. I have no qualms about doint the "tests" - just doing some puzzles in a group environment and chatting informally to the teacher, in fact I'm sure she'll quite enjoy it, I just wonder what to say to her as to WHY she's doing it. There's no way I can say "you're going to play at a school to see if you like it" as a) it's so competitive she probably won't get in and would then be disappointed if she had liked it and I'd have to explain why she wasn't going and b) she's going to about 4 schools and is perfectly capable of announcing to one that actually she doesn't like this school and prefers another one (because it has a pink door or something equally important. Obviously I absolutely don't want her to know she's being tested in any way, but she's too bright to be fobbed off with "lets go and play somewhere new for an hour" Anyone been through this and have any advice?
Thanks

[hmb]

Try making the point that everyone wants to find the school that suits her best. That all the schools are good etc, but that you want to find the one that she will be happiest in, and being happy takes more than having a pink door

If they turn her down, tell her there was something that came up later that showed you that she wouldn't be happy there......they have sprouts every day for lunch??

[tigermoth]

If you get a refusal from the school could you simply tell your dd that YOU decided the school wasn't the best one for her.

I would imagine that schools have ways of ensuring the children don't know they are being tested - hopefully. Might be an idea to phone each school and ask what they say to the children on the day, then elaborate on this with your dd before you go - just in case the school version and your version don't match - you say your dd is very on the button.

If the school simply tests the children, could you say it's something that lots of children do - a bit like a medical - and it doesn't mean she'll be going to the school where the test takes place. After all she doesn't end up in the local hospital every time the doctor examines her.

[willow2]

Cll - think you are worrying unnecessarily. When I was 11 I did a round of eleven plus scholarship exams without a clue as to what it was all about. I just knew that I was going to have to go to a big school and that they wanted to meet me. I had no idea I was being tested - simply thought that we were practising lessons. As a result I didn't feel any pressure and did very well. So at four I think you could probably get away with that you're going to see some people and have some fun.

[topcat]

You have chosen private education and therefore to put your child through these assessments. It doesn't just happen to be like that where you live. Tell yourself the truth then try to tell it to your child.

[tigermoth]

but all children get assessed unless they are home educated - what about SATS?

[WideWebWitch]

Cll, I agree, it is hideous this selection process I think but it's not the area, it is the schools you've chosen so I think topcat has a point. State schools don't do this to kids do they? i.e pick and choose the ones they want (please someone correct me if I'm wrong). SATS are much later than 4 yo aren't they? Sorry, won't start debating private vs state education here as it's not the place but I am interested to know. Ours don't anyway. I'm sure someone else will be more helpful!

[slug]

Make her the centre of the process. Something like "We can't decide which school is best for you, so if we do decide to send you to this one, they will know what things you are really good at and what things you need a little more hepl with."

It's a variant onwhat I tell my college students during the initial assesment.

[Marina]

And what about their baseline assessment when they arrive?
One of the more appealing aspects of the independent sector, IMO, is that a school does not have to go the SATs and league table route if it doesn't want to. We all know there is much, much more to a happy school that its league table position.
I don't know where you or Cll live, Topcat, but in my part of SE London where an average to good state sector predominates, the scramble for places is so morally and emotionally charged it's already extremely stressful for child and parent alike. And the ideal world where small children are kept apart from the negative aspect of the process doesn't exist: his nursery playmates and even the children in the church creche are already discussing big school and where they want to go, even if you try and keep it low profile at home.

[Cll]

Started to respond with fighting talk on the state vs private sector, but there's no point arguing - I'm not going to change my mind or my child's education to please someone else. I'm delighted for those who want to send their kids to the local state school and have good ones to send them to - both my parents spent their lives teaching in the State sector - but I've chosen not to and that wasn't what I was asking advice about. As I say I'm not remotely worried that my daughter will find the "tests" stressful - I'm sure she'll enjoy it - (not sure about me) and I'm not really worried about explaining why she's not going somewhere if she doesn't get in - just wondered what others had told their kids who'd been through similar experiences. Thanks to all those who gave advice - think I'll go for the let's go and have a look at some schools and have a play and if she asks further try the everyone's deciding where you'd be happiest line. Thanks for your message Willow2 - you're probebly right and I'm fussing over nothing.

[Scatterbrain]

Good for you Cll - for what it's worth I thought topcat's comment was out of order and pretty damn rude !

Perhaps she'll understand when she asks for some advice and gets a slap down ?

[smokey]

My Ds went through a competitive entry assessment at 4. We just told him we wanted to him to meet the teachers and have a play with the other children to see what the school was like and to tell us afterwards what he thought.
He had no idea at all he was being assessed and thoroughly enjoyed it. He was really surprised and pleased later when we told him that the teachers had chosen him to go to the school. Some of the other prospective parents clearly had told their children that they were going to the school for tests and the children seemed more nervous as a result.

[willow2]

Glad to be of help cll - and have to say I agree with Scatterbrain about Topcat's comments.

[Marina]

Yes, I agree too, Willow & Scatterbrain, and am sorry I didn't make that clearer in my woolly post. There are areas in the UK where the state sector is simply not providing an acceptable level of education for children, and I guess Cll lives in one of them and Topcat doesn't.
Good luck with the interviews Cll and I hope you find the right place for dd, I am sure you will.

[CAM]

sorry topcat, you're wrong. In my area there are several private schools and the state schools are not good. None of the private schools here give assessment tests to enter, certainly not at age 4. I think that older children changing schools get an academic reference available to the new school, same as state schools.

[bells2]

Similar to Cam, only one of the independent schools near us is based on selective assessment. The rest are first come first served.

[bells2]

Similar to Cam, only one of the independent schools near us is based on selective assessment. The rest are first come first served.

[Bozza]

I think this thread is revealing my ignorance. I have to admit that I was shocked that this happened to 4 year olds when I read Cll's message and roughly agreed with topcat's response but didn't post because I didn't have any helpful advice. But now I'm getting worried. I have registered DS for the local state school (local as in can hear the playground from our garden) and think private schools will be out of question financially. However how do I know its any good? I'm of the opinion that young children should really walk to school (I know, ideal world and all that) but wonder if I should be looking around a bit more. It is a village school BTW with one class per year.

[JulieF]

Bozza

I think that word would have reached you by now if your local school had a bad reputation. This is very general and not always true but small village schools are often very desirable rather than large inner city ones. Do you know any kids who go there, are there parents happy. Do the children look happy as you watch them in the playground, can you hear much bad language?

You can always look up the OFSTED report, don't just go for results, look at the pastoral care, discipline, what the inspectors say about the sense of community. Do they help each child to reach its potential rather than just concentrate on the clever ones (this may be termed as differentiation in the report. Remember when looking at SAT results that in a small school just one child having an off day can alter the percentages more than 1 child in a large year group.

Also when a school has an OFSTED inspection the parents are invited to a meeting and fill in a questionaire, look at the results of this.

Finally and this is probably the MOST important. Visit the school, meet the teachers, ask questions.

[susanmt]

Bozza, the most important thing I think is how the school FEELs to you when you are there. Does it feel happy, or stressed, or relaxed?
as it is a village school it is more than likely to be OK (just going by the law of averages). Don't necessarily go by results (says the teacher lol!)
Hope you can put your mind at rest!

[Copper]

Bozza
there was an interesting report in one of the papers last weekend (can't remember which of Guardian, Observer or Times Higher Education Supplement)which compared the degeee results of students with identical A-level grades from the private and state sector. Apparently students from comprehensives do better at university because they have been taught to take responsibility for their work, whereas students from private (and selective? can't remember) schools do not do as well because they are too used to being spoon-fed educationally to function well at university. Apparently many universities view A-levels at ABB from somewhere like Eton as equivalent to BCC.

So don't worry too much that you are not doing the best thing by opting for state education - exchange of money does not always guarantee quality - nor the development of personal qualities.

[Bozza]

Thanks for the advice/support everyone. I think DS and I will have to hang out at the playground by the school a bit more at playtime to get a feel for the kids - come spring, that is. The kids next door go to the school and they seem fairly happy and well-adjusted and their mum is a teacher (elsewhere). I think I'll take another look at the Ofsted stuff. Because if its still OK I think there is a lot to be said for a local primary and other kids DS knows will probably be going there.

[susanmt]

Copper - that is all SO true.
I am an exam marker, (in Scotland, the A levels were nothing to do with me lol) and have marked papers from some top Scottish public schools - and I can tell you there are a lot of parents out there wasting their money, especially when you compare to some little comprehensive which has got the balance right.

[philly]

I agree that money doen't buy the best education necessarily,but I fail to see how you can say that people are wasting money just because the children don't do better in exams,you will never know how that child would have done in a different school enviroment,granted they may have done better but they may have done worse.We are paying for ds precisely because he struggles academically at the moment,we are lucky that we were able to look at all the schools avaliable state and private and choose the one which we felt would give him the best start (I realise we are fortunate to be able to do this)for me this is not about who gets the best A level results after all the way things are going everyone will have 3 As ,I want him to be able to develop as a person in the surroundings that will best boost his self esteem.I admit also that for us it was also about the sport ,music etc.and also about escaping the dreaded SATs which seem to have become a way of beraing schools and teachers and as far as I can see benefit the children very little.Incidentally my older ds thrives on tests (!) it's just horses for courses.

[SueW]

I agree with Philly - it's not just about academic success. Just cos someone's not getting all the right answers in one exam paper, doesn't mean they're not flying through something else, a genius at music, a fantastic artist, a future Olympic champion.

A friend and I both went to a school which creamed off the academically bright at 11 through an exam. That sort of thing suited me but she, although very bright, was more inclined towards art and design and, at 16 she left to go to another school's sixth, still private but which didn't focus solely on academic achievement.

We were talking about this just the other day as she went to the sixth of the school at which my daughter is now in Y1. She said she loved it that there was a range of people - some excelled in sport and some were very bright, etc. But the idea was to bring out the best in everyone, not flog them to get A's and send them off to do medicine and law.

I'm not sure what we'll do about DD in the future but as she gets older, we'll review the options open to us.

[Croppy]

In any case most parents would no doubt rather send their offspring to a good state school rather than a good private school if they had the choice but for the majority they simply don't have that choice. Either there is no good local state school or it is highly oversubscribed.

Out of interest, if a couple is relatively wealthy and able to afford a big home, frequent overseas holidays and a generally affluent lifestyle, do they think they are wrong in using their money to increase the chances of their child's chances of getting a decent education?. I know I couldn't justify having all the above and not using that money to buy an education. Also, I'm sure most of you would agree that facing a long wait on the NHS for a life saving operation for your child paying to go private is acceptable. Why is education any different?