I've done a Bad Thing...

[Issymum]

This is not an invitation to discuss the merits of 'Private/State' schools, just a post-traumatic download.

We've applied to four schools for DD1 (3.5 yo)- state primary, non-selective private and two selective private ones. The non-selective private one is probably our first choice, but we've decided to plough ahead with the assessments for the two private selective schools on a 'we've paid for it and might as well keep all options open basis'. So this morning we went along to Selective School #1, for DD1's "individual assessment". We were given a form a few weeks ago, to be completed and submitted before the assessment, including a picture to be coloured in and a box in which DD1 was supposed to do a drawing. Have you ever tried to make a 3 year old draw a picture of a particular subject in a box on a form? No. Then don't. It necessarily involves shouting, bribes and threats. At 11pm last night I came very close to grabbing the crayons in my left fist and doing the colouring and drawing myself. Only the craven fear of being found out stopped me!

DD1 and I have had lots of cosy chats about what was going to happen at the assessment ('special playgroup') and how fun it was going to be, but when the moment came this morning for DD1 to leave me and be dragged off by the receptionist for her interview, she started to cry. I came within a whisker of chasing after her, pulling her into my arms and fleeing the school screaming "For God's sake, she's three." But I didn't. I wish I had, because when I picked her up an hour later after her FOUR one on one interviews, she was silent and sad.

I'd be startled if she were offered a place. I'd be even more startled if we accepted it. I should never have asked her to do it.

[Roisin]

I'm filling up.

Do I take it from your post that you've got another of these ordeals to get through?

[zephyrcat]

Poor you and poor dd! At least you know now though - it would have been a million times worse to see her get through this then realise she hates the school when there wasn't an alternative option. Have you yet to go to your first choice? Wilol she have to do the same kind of thing there? Four one on one interviews must be a daunting thing for a little one - It would make me nervous!!!

[nm]

Don't be too hard on yourself - you were doing what you thought best - just give her loads of hugs and kisses. FWIW we did an assessment - DD was fine but I decided against it as i felt it was too "corporate". I have no particular feelings about state v private as i think that parents should be allowed to choose what they think is best for their child.
Put it down to experience and accept my virtual hug!

[motherinferior]

Sweetheart. Please don't beat yourself up (I can SO easily imagine the same scenario with my own dd1 - you think you've got it all straight, and then suddenly they burst into tears). It's a one-off and it's in the context of your agonising decisions about exactly the right school to choose for your two.

Talk it over with her when she's ready, and I'm sure you'll be able to sort it out. I really am.

[Issymum]

Thanks Roisin. We have a further group assessment for Selective School #1 and a group assessment (no individual assessments) for Selective School #2. I think the group assessments will be fine, particularly for Selective School #2 which organises the group assessment as a 'fairy party' with invitations, games, food and low-key one on one moments. I think we'll forget the group assessment for Selective School #1. Even if DD1 will be fine, I think I'm too traumatised to return!

[JoolsToo]

They want to 'interview' a three-year old? - Hmmmm

[motherinferior]

(The reason I say 'talk it over' is I know my DD1 - exactly the same age - will suddenly come out with the reason why something was upsetting her.)

[bundle]

issymum, i'm so glad you posted this and hope it helps other people to decide what to do about their children's education. MI is right - children do open up later about things - dd1 wouldn't open her mouth when the dentist came to her nursery...it turned out later she wanted to know why he had gloves on! they frightened her...

[Marina]

I posted on your duplicate thread about this Issymum. Sorry to hear about this.

[beachyhead]

You really haven't done a bad thing and I'm sure she won't be traumatised by the day. I did an assessment with ds (3) but I was allowed to be there throughout. It was really just word games, looking at pictures, vocab, guessing colours etc.

I would just ask her what made her sad about that school, because it might just be that she didn't know she was going to be without you for an hour.

I'm sure they were nice to her, but it was just the lack of familiarity that made her quiet.

Still, fundamentally, if you don't agree with the way that they did the assessments, I would not opt for that school, even if she does get in.....

I would also buy her a doughnut for being such a brave girl......

[handlemecarefully]

Oh poor little love. However I guarantee that she will have forgotten about it by tea time, and she won't be loosing any sleep over it so don't you do so!

[Issymum]

Thank you for all your posts on both threads (sorry!). All that kindness made me cry - this morning really got to me - and am now feeling much better. As MI suggested, we'll talk later on today about the morning. By then her recall will probably only extend to the packet of lollies that I gave her when we got home!

One of the things I found particularly undermining is that everybody I've met at these assessments seems so confident. Absolutely confident that Selective Schools #1 and #2 are the only schools worthy of consideration in our area (people send their kids from miles around and we are considered amazingly fortunate to live a five minute walk from both of them) and super-confident that their child is bright and will thrive in the highly academic and pressurised environment of the schools. Most of their kids seem to share their confidence! Am I the only mother in the whole of Surrey who is not confident that their small daughter is clever? Funny, happy, observant but not necessarily academically clever.

[motherinferior]

You just think that because she is so very beautiful

[Heathcliffscathy]

clever isn't actually the key to happiness and isn't that the holy grail that we want for our children. dh is super clever. i'm quite clever (ish, sometimes) and our cleverness got us into hothouse schools that made us miserable and had nothing to do with where we have ended up career wise in our lives.

i think that 'clever' isn't something i aspire for in ds (aged 1!). inquisitive maybe. gentle, certainly. clever, no.

you've done nothing wrong. you're just trying to get it right for dd.

she'll recover, so will you. and i doubt you'll choose that school (it's not even your first choice is it?)

be nice to yourself. you're a lovely mum.

[bundle]

issymum, even the so-called "duff" schools in your part of the world would probably shine academically in norf london...
and there are different kinds of "clever" and i think you are right to consider whether these places are suited to your daughter's temperament and happiness. i have a friend who also lives in surrey and know that this kind of pressure is common.

[Blu]

Ah, well, now you are getting into contentious discussion, Issymum!
My DS would make short work of a drawing in a box on a form - and it wouldn't be the intended outcome, I assure you!
Personally, I think you failed badly in not coaching your child to express herself in boxes or give her hours of practice talking to strangers in little roooms.

It isn't only 'ability' that gets people into these schools you know! Let's hear it for people who like to draw outside the box, I say.

Seriously, sorry you and she were upset - it's easy to get into these situations before you realise you're going to regret it,isn't it? I did the same thing with the Child of the 21stC survery which DS is part of - he kept 'failing', at 3, to answer or complete tasks which were aimed at a 3-7 age grup, FFS. He felt really discouraged, and wouldn't do any puzzles for ages after that.

[noddy5]

I was considered 'clever' and went to a school like you are talking about and was never happy.Ds in fab local state school and has done brilliantly and is as happy as can be

[Blu]

I don't think drawing to order in a box or feeling confident enough alone with strangers to talk freely is anything to do with cleverness at all. I think that is about practice (inc coaching), familiarity, temperament.

[beachyhead]

I think some parents are super sure of what will be best for their darling dd/ds - which can be quite scary. Maybe they are right, but I think you have to go with the gut feel for a particular child. I know dd& is not super bright (or close) and the school she is in, although selective, is a gentle enviroment where the care is more holistic. However, ds (3) is super manipulative, verbally v. confident and seems bright as a button, and he seems to need a more challenging enviroment where expectations are higher, (and discipline is better, frankly!)

I would never send dd to school where ds is, as I don't think she would flourish there.

Its a wonder they came from the same set of parents!!!!

Obviously, I could be proven massively wrong but hopefully I'll be big enough to admit my mistake and get them somewhere that does suit them more. For the moment, fingers crossed!!!!

[MrsDoolittle]

I have been lurking interested on this thread. My dd is 7 months old and I am horrified that these are the pressures our little family will be under in a few years
I really feel for you Issymum and all of you who have had similar experiences. This would devastate me.

[frogs]

Poor you, issymum.

But you haven't done a bad thing -- if you'd put her into (say) a creche at the gym for two hours and she was miserable, you'd just dust yourself off, and decide to give it a miss next time. It's just schools guilt/panaroia/panic that makes everyone so miserable.

Anyhow, isn't clever the wrong word? Some kids are good at the kind of hoops that schools want them to jump through, and some aren't. I've got a dd1 (9) with a reading age (apparently) of 16, who hates school (and they don't like her much, either) as well as a 5 year-old who can read well-ish but can't write legibly even if bribed with smarties -- but he loves school and all teachers adore him.

It's the school's loss. Hope you find somewhere sensible enough to know a good thing when they see it.

[Gobbledigook]

And people are against selective education at 11?!?!?! OMG!!

No criticism of you IssyMum - I know you just want the best for your dd but have to be honest and say that your post actually made me feel sick. To think that 3 year olds are put through that kind of thing is just horrific. What are these people trying to achieve - is academic achievement the only way to get on in life? No it isn't - the absolute best you can do for your child in terms of school, I believe, is to make sure they are happy. Who cares if they are not einstein just so long as they enjoy it?

Different horses for different courses - I didn't go to a private secondary but went to a top state girls grammar and my brother went to the equivalent boys grammar. I loved it (I am academic, loved exams and was good at them), my brother was desperately unhappy (he's now a graphic designer so you can see how that academic environment was not right for him).

Anyway, I'm sure your dd will be absolutely fine. They are resilient little things 3 year olds!!

[warmmum]

No school private or otherwise should be puting this amount of pressure on you and your tiny tot.

I've got one in the private system and she was not asked to complete anything at home, and at the school they had an assessment to ensure that there are no substantial learning difficulties, as the school is not set up to deal with them. Choose a different school, or it will be pressure all the way through.

Horrid to have that - Good Luck

[warmmum]

PS Did not read all thread - rushing to collect screaming child from cot!!