Scotland-Jan birthdays - anyone got teenagers?!

[Badger7]

Hi
My youngest son is January born, so I have a choice of 'holding him back' for one year if I wish. He is bright and keen to go to school like his big brother (P2). However I know parents who are holding back because they are convinced that sending boys (not so adamant with girls) harms their development/education when they are at secondary. My son is going to be tall for his age, I just can't decide whether to make him the eldest or youngest in his class! Not too worried about him coping in Primary school, more concered about what friends say about teenage boys who are youngest. Also, it will increase the separation between him & his brother if I hold back - P4/P1 instead of P3/P1 etc.

Does anyone have experience, particulary in the Scottish system, of BOYS who have been held back a year who are now in Secondary education? Or Jan birthdays who weren't? Do you wish you had made a different choice? Do you think it has aided/hindered them both socially and educationally?

I'm getting quite concerned about this, it isn't a decision I realised I would have to make! I really would like to find something concrete about how it affects boys to be held back or not at Primary when they are older. Does anyone know of any offical sites where I can get some statistics or something?! I know all kids are different, but it must make some sort of difference or the choice wouldn't be there!

[suedonim]

Hi, Badger. I'm in Scotland and have/have had four children through the system here. None of mine have been less than 5 when starting school but I know plenty of people who have had 'younger' starters.

My two boys are in their 20's now and I can honestly say that I know of none of their younger peers who have had problems at secondary level due to their age. Any problems seem to be related to starting school, as you note. What can sometimes happen eventually is that when the child leaves school the parents feel they are too young for uni at 17 so they go off and have a gap year instead, but as many 18yo's do that anyway it's no big deal. If you think your ds will settle at school I think I'd send him. Hth

[luckymum]

Hi- not in Scotland but my ds1 was the youngest in his year. He was 16 last week so 'left' secondary at 15 and has just started at college. When (if) he goes to uni he will be just 18.

All through primary and at the beginning of secondary he struggled, particularly academically. At that time I regretted not holding him back, although in England he would have been put with his peers even if he'd started later. He was immature for his agegroup and physically small too. However at 14 he had a growth spurt and being with 'older' children has certainly matured him socially. He has transferred to college with no problems at all (apart from the usual teenage stuff) , sorted out his subjects, bus pass, the lot. His main gripe has been that he hasn't been able to work during the summer

[Badger7]

Suedonim, were any of them actually held back, or just fortunate with birth months? I'm concerned that he would be potentially 14 months older than the youngest child in his class. My brother was an Oct birthday (in England, so among eldest in class) and did ok, I was youngest and got to Grammar school. We were both in our 'correct year though - my only experience of kids out of their year was ones held back because they had moved into area and hadn't done the syllabus, and remember they had a hard time fitting in with their younger peers socially...

[Prettybird]

My brother's birthday is Jnauary and he probably suffered through being too young for school. He was only 16 when he sat his Highers (in 5th year).

To be fair, it was porbably complicated by the fact that we also emigrated when he was 11 to the SOuthern Hemisphere, where he was effectively an EXTRA six months younger than his class mates (as we both went to the year "ahead"), then we came back after 2 years.

Plus he had the disadvantage of a swotty, brainy big sister in the year ahead (although 19 months older than him) - with whom the teachers (unfairly) compared him. Plus he was tall for his age, so people didn't realise his apparent lack of maturity WASN'T - he was just younger than his friends.

This was a long time ago - my "wee" brother is now 41! After a hiatus of courses and resits in various educational establishments, he is now has his own successful business. He is alos a charming, sociable man with a wide circle of friends. So things do come good in the end!

[Badger7]

Hi prettybird,
How old was your brother compared to classmates when you came back to Britain?

[suedonim]

None of them, even with late birthdays were held back, Badger. It was very, very unusual back in the 80's to do that. Nowadays with nursery school the teachers have a clearer idea of how the child is likely to cope and can recommend repeating a year in nursery, if necessary. My next door neighbour is a nursery teacher and she rarely feels a child needs an extra year. She says most mums who do hold back their child are going potty by Xmas cos they're bored and desperate to go to 'Big School' lol! She herself has a 'young' son who is in dd1's year and there's no difference intellectually or otherwise in their development.

Prettybird, 16 isn't particularly young for taking Highers. Most children are 16 when they take them with only those children with birthdays between March and May being 17.

I suppose I do have had brief experience of a child being out of synch with their peers age-wise. We moved to Jakarta in 2002 and then 15yo dd1 was back-classed due to curriculum problems. She loathed being with children 12/15mths younger than her and eventually came back to the UK on her own.

I guess however school intake is determined, there's always going to be children at each end of the age range.

[muddaofsuburbia]

I turned 17 on the day of my Higher French

[Badger7]

I seem to be getting two trains of thought from friends/relatives - one very strongly that boys have a higher risk of 'going off the rails'/lacking academic success/not coping with the workload if Jan/Feb boys are sent to school 'on time' at 4 1/2; the other that mums (and it does seem to be mums, not dads) who keep their kids back either just don't want to 'let go' or secretly fear that their boy isn't bright enough to cope and would do better if older than their peers.

Sorry about the long sentences! I used to agree with the latter, especially as I was youngest in my class. Lately I've read several books about raising boys, which has made me wonder if there is something to the idea that boys need to be that bit older to cope with the concentration and application required in today's schooling. My eldest son (October birthday, so 4yrs 9months on entering P1) is now in P2 - is very bright, can read like a teenager - is having problems concentrating on tasks, in particular he has bother completing work in the allotted time. He is capable and keen to work, just can't keep his mind on the task. He finds everything else going on so interesting he gets distracted easily (not a 'mumsy' excuse, honest- if I ask why he hasn't finished class work he'll launch into a complicated description of something he saw or thought about while he should have been working). I'm beginning to wonder if he might have found it easier to concentrate if he was just a bit older... On the other hand, I can see what suedonim means when she says held-back kids are bored by xmas. My 3r old is trying to write, know the alphabet and confidently counts to 10 (and understands what the numbers mean), and I think he'd be quite fed up if still at nursery by the time he is 5 1/2. On the other hand, he is tall for his age and already people assume he has started school, and try to treat him like a 5yr old.

I do think the Scottish system is a bit weird - if he starts Primary 'on time' he wouldn't be old enought to leave school after o grades, and would have to attend until xmas even if he didn't want to take Highers. Obviously I hope he will stay on anyway to take Highers (although having gone through the English system I'm biased towards GCSE followed by A levels), but it does show that something is skewed if the official starting age doesn't allow children to leave at the official end of compulsory schooling!

If I was sure that he wouldn't end up at a disadvantage (socially with his peers as well as academically) I'd put up with a few months of a bored nursery boy. What I'm worried about is that he's end up sticking out as one of the kids who weren't in the 'right' year.

[Badger7]

PLease excuse typos/poor grammar - in a rush to get my muddled thoughts down!

[Demented]

Badger, my tales don't quite meet your criteria but FWIW I have a January birthday and started school at 4 1/2. I don't think it did me any great harm (although I was always quite quiet at School and maybe another year at home would have helped that but then maybe not), I wasn't old enough to leave School after fourth year but that wasn't a huge problem either as I wanted to do some highers. I now have two DSs, my eldest DS has a January birthday too and has just started School at 5 1/2. I chose to hold him back by making sure that he had no more than two years of funded pre-school education (one year at a funded playgroup and one year at the school nursery), that way it was my decision and not the nursery's, they didn't have to seek extra funding for him (I believe they have to have good reason to do this and present a strong case). I'm sure my DS1 could have started School when he was 4 1/2 and been just fine and as SueDonim says he was driving me nuts by the time he was five but due to some speech problems he had when he was younger I was advised to keep him at home the extra year if it was at all in my power to allow him to fully catch up and also the lady who gave this advice (pre-school education adviser) was of the opinion that boys in particular could do with the extra time at home, I had also heard this advice from other sources so decided to go with it. As it happens there are about six children in his class whose parents have done the same thing (mostly all boys) and his teacher is delighted, she says it's a lovely class and she's sure they are settling so well and behaving so well (at the moment anyway) due to the fact that so many of them are older and more mature (we'll see if that continues ).

All the best with your decision!

[Badger7]

Hi demented
That is interesting, my son has just been referred to Speech Therapy. Not sure how long it will take to work though... There seems to be a 'fashion' for holding back at my school at the moment, but not sure how many in his year will be holding back (there were about 7 I think this year out of about 40(?) in year group). Our school has two classes of P1, divided into older and younger, but I don't think there is an age division in the later years, so although he'd be within 6-8 months of his peers whatever I did in his P1 year, it could be 14 months after that. He wasn't due until mid-January, but came just after new year. Labour actually started and stopped again at Xmas - if he'd come then I wouldn't have has this agonising to go through!

[scotlou]

Badger - you have my sympathies! After much heart searching and discussion, my dh and I finally decided to send our ds (Jan birthday) to school in August. He is loving it! We spoke to the head teacher back in February before registration, and she advised to register him anyway for 2004 entry but if we later did not want to send him that year we would not need to. She also said that she wished she had not sent her own son at 4 1/2 as now he is a teenager he is much smaller than his peers.
From that time until June we were convinced we would wait until next year before sending ds. Then suddenly he seemed to mature very quickly - became much more sociable, was relating exceptionally well with adults and both his nursery and my mum (who shared childcare) reckoned he was ready for school. We are lucky since this head teacher visits kids in their nurseries to see how they're getting on - she saw him in late May and recommended school as he was clearly ready for it.
I would say to do what feels right at the time - we feel we have made the right decision for our son at this point as he is so happy (we do have a lovely school though - rural - only 2 classes - 5 kids in P1). We'll tackle later difficulties if / when they happen.

[tabitha]

Badger,

have no personal experience of this, but will probably have a simmilar dilemma in a few years time as dd has a Feb bithday, however a few of my friends/relatives have.
Of them my sil's son (Dec birthday) started at over 5 1/2 and had no problems although oldest in class. Friend's son (Feb birthday) started at 4 1/2 on advice of school nursery and had a terrible time. Just wasn't ready for school emotionally although he is a bright boy, with the result that he was held back a year and repeated Primary 1. After that he did fine.
Other sil's daughter (Jan birthday) started at 4 1/2 (again on advice of nursery) and although not 'held back' is struggling (currently in P3) and is having to have learning support.
I think on balance and especially from what other people I know have experienced, I would tend to keep a child back from starting for another year unless I was completely convinced that not sending them to school would be detrimental. In saying that however, I can see how they might easily get bored with nursery by Xmas especially if all their friends had moved on.
It's not an easy one.

[Demented]

Badger, the Speech Therapist should be able to guide you in your decision too. Although my DS1 was discharged from the Speech Therapist before he even started Nursery (although this was the year he should have been going to School) the ST thought it was the right decision for my DS1 given the delay that he had.

The School you describe could be my DS1's school, two primary one classes, older ones in one class, younger ones in the other, about 7 who have January birthdays and been held back. You're not in Fife are you?

[tabitha]

Should have mentioned that boy boths I referred to in my earlier message are now teenagers and in fact have left school. Don't think that either of them had problems at secondary and by that time both were among the oldest in their classes. Also one of dd1's friends (now 17) had a Dec birthday and was kept back a year and again had no problems in secondary. Don't know any children of secondary age or older who were the youngest in their classes so cannot comment on that, I'm afraid.

[Badger7]

Demented, which town are you in? Or aren't we allowed to mention towns/school names? - I'm new to message boards, not sure how 'anonymous everyone is supposed to be!

Tabitha, I'm trying to make sure what happened to your friend's son doesn't happen. My school has said that if a 4 1/2 starts and has problems they give 'extra support', she said you can't take them back down to nursery class and have 'another go' the next year. I'd imagine being held back from P1 would be harder for the child than staying at nursery. My eldest can't remember 'friends' he had at 3&4 years whom he no longer meets, whereas I'm sure he won't forget his P1 pals.
I'm still most concerned about what impact starting/holding back will have on his secondary education and teenage years. I know a lot of it is chance, luck and genetics, but I feel as if the onus is on me to try to make the choice which gives him the most opportunity to make the best of his abilities.

[Demented]

Badger, I'm in Dunfermline.

[Badger7]

Demented, did your decision to hold back include worries about teenage years at the next school? Do you think you would have been tempted to send 'on time' if you son hadn't needed speech therapy?

[Demented]

Tricky question Badger. I was concerned that he would stand out as odd being the oldest in the class, although looks like I needn't have worried as there are about half a dozen in his class who have done the same thing and there is every chance they will all be at the same high school. My DH and I were both of the opinion that we would look into the possibilities of keeping him back a year after seeing a programme about it was DS1 was a baby (think it was about Schools in Europe (Norway perhaps) and how well the children do even although they don't start School until 7 years old), although if it hadn't been for the advice of the Pre-School Educational lady we saw we might not have fully understood how the system worked and might have been 'forced' into sending him to School at 4 1/2. On the Pre-school Lady's advice we decided to send him to playgroup at 3 1/2, then Nursery in the year he should have started School so there were no arguments.

I suppose the answer to your question is that DH and I were concerned about him starting School at 4 1/2 before he had any problems and were considering holding him back but were unsure how to go about it but certainly once he had problems we were pretty much decided that he was going at 5 1/2.

I'm presuming your DS1 doesn't go to School in Dunfermline then?

[Demented]

Should just say that we made the decision before he was 3 1/2, although it wasn't set in stone and I have had doubts back and forward that we were doing the right thing but now that he is at School I feel it has been right for him and us.

[Badger7]

Hi Demented
Yes, we are in Dunfermline schools. How did you get in touch with the 'Pre-School Education Lady'? Did she give you any info about teenagers? I suppose one of the reasons I'm stressing is that if I hold him back I'll be doing it without the support of family, so I'll be open to any problems he has with his schooling (or life after!!) may be blamed on it by relatives, as well as my own doubts - which will probably occur either way, come to think of it!!

[Demented]

Badger, that is spooky, don't know how much you want to reveal but are we talking about a School who shares it's campus/nursery with the local catholic primary school?

The Pre-School Educational Advisor (or something like that she is called), I was put in touch with her through a Community Paediatrician my DS1 saw (Child Development Centre in Kelty) as there were concerns about Autism/something on the Autistic Spectrum and he basically asked if I would like to see the Pre-School lady. I thought at the time she was going to help me play with DS1, check I was doing everything OK and encouraging his language etc but mostly she just had a chat as in her option she didn't see much wrong with DS1 or much wrong with the way he/we played and felt it was just a delay that was going to sort itself out.

She didn't talk about the teenage years or mention any concerns about him being held back and the effect it would have on him at that time but I have to admit that it didn't really enter my head at this time either (he started to see her at about 2 1/2, teenage years seemed a long way of at this time). I suppose by the time they get to the teenage years their classmates will be used to them being the oldest or one of the oldest in the class and if this year's primary one intake is anything to go by he won't be the only one but I can also understand your concerns as I had concerns both about him going to School at 4 1/2 and then about him going at 5 1/2, I'm just glad DS2 has a June birthday and we had no choice.

[Demented]

or we have no choice, DS2 isn't anywhere near School age yet.

[Badger7]

I know the school you are talking about. You can see our site from your grounds.

My Dr said you need a crystal ball to see when puberty is going to hit... if you hold them back and they happen to hit puberty early they are potentially 14 months older than some of their peers and completely out of step socially/emotionally. On the other hand if you start them young and they hit puberty late you may have a boy drowning amongst a class of moody teenagers chasing girls and cars while they still want to play with trains...

Some mums who hold back insist testosterone levels and brain developement mean that boys can't cope well with the fine motor skills and concentration levels needed in highs school, and the extra year brings the maturity required to apply themselves.

If I had planned his birthday it would have been for July!