Parents won't discipline children, schools are not allowed to discipline children, so grammar chools are the way forward.

(386 Posts)
Longlost10 Fri 09-Sep-16 19:40:48

The whole comprehensive system is dragged down by the financial, spiritual, moral, educational and professional cost of the huge number of total wasters in the student body. Those who disrupt lessons, ignore teachers, distract students, talk back, waste time, make paper aeroplanes out of worksheets, dawdle in late, don't bother to do their homework, don't come equipped, chat and fidget and generally make no attempt to learn. They are utterly selfish and just tink of nothing but enjoying themselves.They are pandered to and spoilt, offered endless chances, suck the system dry of money, time, energy, and resources. Teachers are held responsible for their imbecilic behaviour, and grind themselves into dust trying to work to change behavior which is under someone elses control entirely.

This is why I support grammar schools. It gives the top 25% the opportunity to get away from these yobs, and and incentive to behave well, and keep behaving well, as a grammar school student needs to maintain certain levels of behavior and achievement to remain a grammar school student.

So overall, the poor behavior goes down. Because a grammar school place is an incentive to behave properly, and so some bad behaviour improves.

In a comp, badly behaved pupils have nothing to lose. That changes in a grammar system.

And a large number of students can get away from the poor behaviour too. Of course there is some bad behaviour in grammar schools, but it isn't comparable.

So less bad behaviour, more learning, and fewer students affected by bad behaviour in others. Whats not to like??

Of course it doesn't solve the problem of having to put up with bad behaviour in secondary modern classrooms, but it doesn't make it any worse either.

Jaimx86 Fri 09-Sep-16 19:50:43

Hmmmm. Name changed.

My school is in a very deprived area. Parental engagement is minimal. Yet the school is sixth best in the city (including schools that select students). Too many schools/teachers are 'coasting' off the back of 'nice' students with parents who pay for tutors.

mumsneedwine Fri 09-Sep-16 19:50:46

Yobs ? You mean the kids who come from disrupted homes where they have no parental support. The kids who are angry because they are beaten, abused, starved or neglected. The ones who are knackered because they are young carers and get angry because they just want someone to care for them for a change. You mean those yobs ? I have yet to find a student who is disruptive who comes from a 2.2 family where dinner is on the table every night. But you feel free to call these kids names and refuse them a future. You sound lovely

Longlost10 Fri 09-Sep-16 19:55:25

Yobs ? You mean the kids who come from disrupted homes where they have no parental support

er, no, I mean the utterly selfish brats who just enjoy behaving badly.

Everybody thinks they can come up with a list of reasons why children behave badly, but the plain and simple truth the majority of the time is that it is simply more fun than behaving well

I have yet to find a student who is disruptive who comes from a 2.2 family where dinner is on the table every night. really? don't believe you.

mumsneedwine Fri 09-Sep-16 20:02:02

Well I've worked in education for over 20 years. What are your qualifications ? I find the complete lack of understanding by adults as to the reasons students do not behave very sad. Some kids are angry and want attention - yes it disrupts classes and yes it's annoying to teach, and yes it's easier with a class of kids who have stable homes. But that's not reality. And it has nothing to do with money. Neglect occurs in wealthy families too.

wonderstuff Fri 09-Sep-16 20:14:31

I also work in secondary education, completely agree with mumsneedwine
The other issue is that in these sink schools for the other 75% you will have lots of very well behaved kids who for whatever reason won't perform well on that exam.

The best performing grammar in Birmingham has not one child in recipient of free school meals.

I listened to the PM's speech today and she clearly has no experience of children in deprived families.

Longlost10 Fri 09-Sep-16 20:17:07

Well I've worked in education for over 20 years. What are your qualifications ?

well, I've worked in education a lot longer than you, and your post summarises pretty succinctly the namby pambying that has sunk the uk education system.

I've taught in schools in other countries which are streets ahead of us, with one tenth of the budget and staffing, because

Some kids are angry and want attention - yes it disrupts classes just would not be acceptable one iota for one second. My last school for rescued child soldiers in East Africa, for example, was full of sad angry children, and each and every one of them knew they were privileged to be offered an education, and were taking responsibility for making the most of it, and had their sadness and anger disrupted any lessons they would have been expelled.

the problem we have is a lot of spoilt, privileged children with a permanent chip on their shoulders, feeling entitled and hard done by, and assuming they will have endless last chances, there will be no consequences for disruption, and if they leave school with no qualifications, they can live on handouts for ever.

yes it's easier with a class of kids who have stable homes. But that's not reality actually, none of my African students had homes or parents of any description, let alone stable ones, and the reality is that in other countries children are expected to learn, regardless, and they do. Coming back into the UK system in such a shock. It is hard to beleive what I am seeing. Really, the African children I have left are years ahead of their counterparts here, and that is with no resources, less than 10% of the funding, classes of three or four times the size, well under half the years schooling under their belt, but without the behavioral problems.

In the uk, talking while the teacher is talking is the norm, I never saw it once in East Africa.

There is no reason to subject the grammar stream children to this farce. Yes, it needs to be controlled, but it isn't going to be, in the foreseeable future. So lets get a quarter of students away from the fiasco that is being played out in comprehensive schools, at least.

Moosa Fri 09-Sep-16 20:21:28

I agree with you op. I've taught in several foreign countries and kids are far far better behaved. I think you'll probably get flamed on here though...

GoldFishFingerz Fri 09-Sep-16 20:35:21

Our comp isn't like that. It has 35% A and A* grades, a solid ethos/pastoral system and supports the ones that need extra.

The local grammar on the other hand has high levels of self harm and some desperately pressurised
anxious teens. Drug use still happens - except because the children are almost completely middle class, there is more of a budget for drugs. There are still awful personal issues and tragic families.

mumsneedwine Fri 09-Sep-16 20:42:19

But I don't teach in a foreign country. I teach in the UK, which is what I thought we were discussing. Cultural influences can not be removed and the world they live in outside school is very different to Africa. If school is supposed to deal with the whole social problems of society then that's mad. But we can deal with, and help, with the situation the kids are living in. What would you do with a 15 year old who was angry and aggressive because last night her uncle stuck his penis in her mouth ? Should I just issue detention and tell her off for being rude and foul ? Because I actually became all namby pamby and took her away to a place of safety and talked to her. And found out the cause and stayed with her while the police spoke to her. And then checked on her the next day to see how her emergency foster placement was going. It was shitty and she wanted to go home, but she couldn't. It took us time and care but she did ok. Not as well as her predicted grades, but she now owns her own shop and is a lovely lady. I have her permission to tell this story as she comes into school as a mentor and is one of the most amazingly brave people I know. And I can give you hundreds of stories like this.

And I am disgusted that anyone who works in education could describe children as yobs.

mumsneedwine Fri 09-Sep-16 20:49:32

And long lost can I just ask what happened to the kids who were expelled ? Just interested as to what became of them. As you have admitted there were disruptive kids, just they were chucked out, so would be nice to know they were not abandoned after all they had gone through.

Longlost10 Fri 09-Sep-16 20:53:24

I would not expect her to allow her personal feelings to ruin other peoples chances of education.

And I am disgusted that anyone who works in education could describe children as yobs there you go again, you see, exactly why Uk education is failing absolutely. Why wouldn't you refer to children as yobs, if they are yobs? you are so conditioned to pussy foot around, avoiding the truth, that you are apparently unable to admit, even to yourself, if children are yobs. What if they are yobs, can't you see how damaging it is for them to be "educated" by someone so blinkered? Can't you see that you are the "cultural influence" that is creating this useless lalaland?

mumsneedwine Fri 09-Sep-16 20:56:20

And long lost can I just ask what happened to the kids who were expelled ? Just interested as to what became of them. As you have admitted there were disruptive kids, just they were chucked out, so would be nice to know they were not abandoned after all they had gone through.

Longlost10 Fri 09-Sep-16 20:57:30

And long lost can I just ask what happened to the kids who were expelled ? one child, in four years, and yes he was "abandoned" - yes, this is reality. There are no educational resources what so ever available for someone who behaves badly in school, which is why almost no children do.This is where we fall down, the worst behaved a child is, the more resources are lavished on them. totally illogical, and counter productive.

Grammar schools, on the other hand, are the worst resourced financially, so savings are another advantage.

Wellywife Fri 09-Sep-16 21:01:40

Mumsneedwine. I'm glad you were able to help that girl. And I understand that some of the disruptive DC do have chaotic lives and are disruptive as a result. But there are also DC from similar backgrounds who come to school and don't kick off. And equally plenty who kick off because they choose to, with no back story or excuse.

And not every school copes like yours does. In many cases the end result of a DC kicking off, whatever their reason, is a disrupted lesson. And a lost learning opportunity for the rest of the class.

DSis was head of department in her school and had no discipline issues at all - none of her family would mess with her either! But too many of her colleagues were NQTs or v recently qualified because they couldn't fill their vacancies. And many just could not keep discipline (and ended up leaving the profession). From what she said SMT had no real strategy either. So the disruption goes on. Maybe, without having to spend so much time trying to manage the few, some of those NQTs would have had a chance to get some proper experience of actually teaching, and not quit.

mumsneedwine Fri 09-Sep-16 21:03:58

OK longlost you keep your views and I'll keep mine. But I hope you never work with me. Because I teach 11 year olds whose parents couldn't give a damn about them and I refuse to do the same. Seems like you think I'm wrong. But what happened to those child soldiers you expelled ? Or do you really not care as long as they don't disrupt you.
I'm off to do some work for those 'Yobs ' I teach. So they can maybe become productive members of society and not follow in their parents footsteps. Because education is not just about exams. Bye

Longlost10 Fri 09-Sep-16 21:10:03

But what happened to those child soldiers you expelled feel free to go ahead and find him and educate him yourself. It is estimated to cost approx quarter of a million to provide uk levels of resources to educate a child with behavioural issues through the uk state system. I'm sure that is no particular stumbling block to you, you are happy to condemn the rest of us taxpayers funding this pointless rubbish indefinitely.

looking forward to your update on the expelled child soldier. or is money only no object when it is other peoples?

mumsneedwine Fri 09-Sep-16 21:12:26

I really should be planning ! But welly I do agree that it's hard and there is no easy solution. Unfortunately experienced teachers have left in droves due to the stupid amount of useless paperwork and constant redoing of the curriculum. Being an NQT is tough and SLT must be tough. But heads post can't be filled as no one wants to do it due to the paperwork and constant scrutiny. I just hate the attitude of writing off kids who haven't had the advantages that ours have. And I do agree, many kids with horrid lives are absolute stars, and I couldn't tell you why some are and some aren't. But if we write off these 'yobs' what becomes of them as adults ? Because they will still be part of our society and if we can at least try and keep them out of prison then surely it's worth it.
I don't know the answer. Maybe treating teachers with respect might mean more stay in the profession bringing experience. Must go mark.

mumsneedwine Fri 09-Sep-16 21:13:56

Wow. Kids are now pointless rubbish. And you work in education ? What would you do with them ?

cluelessclaudia Fri 09-Sep-16 21:16:39

OP I am an education professional and your views are abhorrent and disgusting. You have no idea what you're talking about.

ReallyTired Fri 09-Sep-16 21:16:45

I think it's unfair the assumption that low ablity children are badly behaved. I worked at an MLD special school were many of the children were lovely and certainly not yobs. I also think it's naive to think that behavioural issues don't happen with bright children.

poisonedbypen Fri 09-Sep-16 21:19:35

Riff Raff

mumsneedwine Fri 09-Sep-16 21:21:59

Reallytired you are so right. It has nothing to do with intelligence.

Stevefromstevenage Fri 09-Sep-16 21:25:17

I don't have time to engage with this right wing nonsense but we had the governor from a local prosion in talking to our students about social justice recently. He spoke about the costs of not educating. It far outweighs your pittance figures.

Pathetic and goady nonsense.

sandyholme Fri 09-Sep-16 21:28:06

Its not me if anyone thinks i have name changed !

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