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IS THERE ANY HELP SUITABLE FOR MY SON - MATHS!

52 replies

NatGeo · 30/07/2015 10:54

Ive reached the end of my tether, I don't know what to do anymore.
DS 11 has always struggled with maths. He was fine up until towards end of year 3. He was in top sets for times tables (very good at memorising, learning by rote).Then a steady decline was noticed by his teacher in the last term of year 3, he just couldn't seem to get problem solving, we spent lots of time going through things with him at home, he would seem to understand it then but couldn't apply it at school.

By end of year 4 he was in bottom sets for Maths. We got him a tutor to teach him at weekend at home, going over everything they were doing in school to reinforce it, still his grades didn't improve.

By year 5 lots nothing hadn't changed. We got him learning support in school so there is close liaison between his extra tuition and his school maths teacher. DS would meet all the learning support targets but still wasn't improving generally with his maths learning. He has done loads of past exam papers just to keep him warm on all topic areas, fractions, division (long and short, percentages etc and he does well in assignments. All maths exams have been failed Sad.

We have just completed year 6, and wary of ds forgetting everything again have arranged two lessons for him.

As of today, ds is unable to do the simplest fractions e.g 2/3 + 3/4, he cannot remember how to do long division, rusty on short, can't do percentages etc and is going into YR 7 in september.

His tutor is perplexed as are we, we don't understand why he cannot remember any of these things which he has done so many times.

He was seen by an Ed Psych back in year 4 who said he has no learning difficulty and was of average intelligence. But clearly there IS a problem with his memory. What can we do? has anyone experienced this?

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Toooldforthat · 30/07/2015 15:12

Has he developed maths anxiety? I believe it is a thing...after all this pressure and failure it is possible. I would leave him alone and see what the secondary school recommend.

NatGeo · 30/07/2015 15:57

Sorry but what is maths anxiety? is it a condition or do you just mean dislike of maths? he is at the same school, I'm not sure what they could recommend.

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Clavinova · 30/07/2015 16:10

"But clearly there IS a problem with his memory."
I can offer no practical advice but I do want to point out that thousands/millions of people with average intelligence struggle with maths; your ds might just fall into this category. Almost 40% of 16 year olds fail their maths GCSE every year and 70% of all home tutoring is for maths.
What 'past exam papers' has he been doing and what sort of score does he get - 20% or 40%? Did he take KS2 SATs this year or is he at an independent school?

NatGeo · 30/07/2015 16:19

he is at an independent school. He has SN as well as ADHD, i'm drip feeding now aren't i? apologies, i didn't mention it before as we have the same high expectations of him as we do of ds1 and don't want him to think, "i have SN, so i can't be good at Maths".
He's has worked on past SAT papers plus a variety of entrance exam papers for independent schools. On average he gets between 50-60%. They don't do SATs at his school.

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Clavinova · 30/07/2015 16:48

I hate to say it but your ds getting 50-60% on past maths papers at age 11 shouldn't leave you in such despair. Can both his parents tackle the same papers with ease or has he inherited the genes of one who finds maths difficult? Perhaps try a different private tutor for a few sessions.

homebythesea · 30/07/2015 19:20

Has he been screened specifically for discalculia? Although it may not be helpful to put a label on it in practical terms it may buy some additional time in exams. The bottom line is this- he will need to pass his GCSE. Yes he may just limp over the line but really, so be it. But honestly getting 50% in papers- you are over thinking this at this stage! Yes he may not be a Maths master but he sounds like he is going to be fairly average. Sometimes it's difficult for us as parents to accept that average is as good as it gets.

insanityscatching · 30/07/2015 19:36

Has he been seen by a SALT? (speech therapist) I'm wondering if he has processing problems or whether he has difficulty with receptive speech.So whilst he can memorise and learn rote numerical facts does he struggle to apply the facts when the questions are more wordy? So whilst he could work out 7x 8.5 x3 would he be able to pick out the calculation in "Three men worked from 9am til 6.30pm for one week. How many hours in total were worked considering each man had a lunch break of 45 minutes and one tea break of 15 minutes"
Dd has ASD and had to be taught strategies to enable her to pick out the relevant and necessary information in word problems. An assessment by a SALT would determine any processing or language difficulties.

noblegiraffe · 30/07/2015 19:36

What sort of level would his SATs papers give him do you know? Or could you give him some SATS papers to work out a national curriculum level?

From what you've said in your OP, a student who can't add fractions with different denominators or do long division wouldn't be especially unusual going into Y7 although those students probably wouldn't have had intensive coaching, but it's hard to gauge what level your DS is actually at.

What SN does he have?

NatGeo · 30/07/2015 20:10

To my knowledge he has never been screened for Dyscalculia but I'm assuming the ed psych would have covered this? although never mentioned. the reason I'm worried about his scores is that most of his mates are averaging high 70s by now and consistently, with a smattering of 80s and 90s for the real high fliers.

He's never been seen by a SALT (i thought they assessed speech impediments etc. Just to be sure, isn't it the Ed Psychs job to assess for processing problems et al I didn't know SALTs could as well, this is not a route we;ve looked it but perhaps should.Insanity what you describe sounds pot on with DS, but in addition to that he then forgets within about 2 weeks and he has to start all over again.

I don't know what level he would be for SATs but his maths teacher in year 4 put him at 3 (a or b) can't remember. But this hasn't been done since.
Unfortunately i can't identify his SN on here for fear of being outed, as his condition is uncommon enough to be identified.

Our hope for him is that he skims Maths at GCSE as poster above said.

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HarveySchlumpfenburger · 30/07/2015 20:28

I'm not sure, from what you've written, that it's necesarily a memory issue. Is there anything from other areas of the curriculum or beyond the curriculum that leads you to think it might be? The fact that he was in the top sets for times tables wouldn't really fit with a memory issue IMHO.

3a/3b at the end of year 5 is average, slightly above average. Not by any means struggling. He may not be struggling as much as you think, just in the wrong school for him.

insanityscatching · 30/07/2015 20:33

Well the SALT diagnosed dd's processing difficulties. They are recognised by her school so she gets extra time for tests etc.Dd processes speech and text like a foreign language so she treats each word individually and then formulates her response word by word which of course takes time.
Dd was taught right from the beginning with word problems to underline all the figures first, then she was taught all the possible ways that a function would be described so she looks for those and underlines those then she gets rid of the unnecessary words and does the calculation.It works for her anyway as she's apparently in the top 10% of her year which surprised me tbh because it's not something she enjoys or feels confident about.

NatGeo · 30/07/2015 20:52

Insanity that's very interesting. I shall look into this. RAFA DS is generally forgetful in most things, more than the average. You are right in that his good memory for timetables does contradict his general memory issues, i really can't explain it. He is able to memorise certain things if told to memorise e.g numbers, lines etc, but just can't remember taught detail things if that makes any sense.
On the other hand he is fabulous at creative writing, and is above average in English. This is sounding really complicated now I'm writing it all down....

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happygardening · 30/07/2015 21:48

My DS1 (yr 13) is or let's say was absolutely rubbish at math. Over the years I've spent thousands on math tutors, I've cajoled bribed shouted pleaded all to no avail, when younger I've sang tables, incorporated tables into games/charts and a God knows what else and the bloody dog knows his 8 times table better than DS1, he was screened for dyscalculia apparently he doesn't have it although I slightly sceptical about this as quantity/numbers have absolutely no meaning for him at all how can anyone sensibly anyone think 2 x 7 be 14 and 3x7 be 95 and he had no understanding of the concept of odd or even numbers.
He does have a very significant processing problem (bottom 3%) and a significant working memory problem (bottom 10%) but a highish IQ top 5% and his younger brother has an IQ for math in access of 150 so I think he's always felt inferior to him when it comes to numbers.
But there is hope despite scoring 10% in his GCSE mock in the real thing four months later with a C (we cracked open the champagne) basically a new teacher (with the patience of Job) taught this very black and white method, it doesn't matter why 7x7 is 49 just accept it is, don't think about the numbers just develop a systematic approach, to answering question, it worked the lower level math GCSE didn't require any variation on a theme.
Having said all of this and frustratingly especially as he's not sat in a math lesson for 2 years, a few weeks ago for a reason only be known to himself he looked at and attempted a higher level GCSE math paper his friend at college had just sat and could answer correctly 85% of the questions, when I asked why he said now the pressure was off to achieve the answers just seemed so obvious!!

happygardening · 30/07/2015 21:55

Meant to add that he has an unbelievable long term memory he positively devours facts, dates, populations of countries micro details about Amazonian frogs anything like that, also quotes bits of speeches made by Hitler, Kennedy etc he reads it once and remembers it, and unlike me ditto faces/names he remember friends from 15 years ago what they said and were interested in.

NatGeo · 30/07/2015 22:56

Happy That's very interesting about your DS, I also had to laugh at how you described, "how can anyone sensibly anyone think 2 x 7 be 14 and 3x7 be 95. Lots of similarities to DS. How did you find out about the memory processing score etc was it through a SLT? i'm glad your DS has a positive ending to his story, we are despairing right now, and can only pray that somehow he cracks it! its not even that he totally doesn't understand mathematical concepts when taught, although it takes him a while, but his retention is so much worse. He was soo good at fractions in year 4, completing all set tasks, he did it again throughout year 5, and 6 at school and at home, but once there's a lull, its as if his brain has been wiped clean like a slate. He just stared at the fractions this morning and couldn't comprehend what to do, to be fair, he remembered that he needed to find the LCM, and he did that correctly but didn't know what to then do with it.

The teacher ds will be having in year 7 certainly does not have the patience of Job.

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homebythesea · 30/07/2015 23:15

In the nicest possible way NatGeo, maybe "despair" is too strong a word for this situation. Some kids are just crap at maths. You may not have transmitted it in terms but the focus on Maths with tutors, extra papers etc will not have gone unnoticed by your DS and stress will not help his memory. I wonder as well whether you are doing him a disservice by taking the attitude of expecting the same in him as his sibling ie minimising the effect his SN may have on this. (But I'm prepared to be shot down on that as I don't have a SN child)

I have had 2 children with issues with maths. One is Discalculic. I don't find the lable helpful really, but it means a bit more time in exams. As happy gardening put it so well, the only approach is one of "learn the rule, don't try to understand it" coupled with repetition x 3875436 and cross every digit the GCSE hurdle gets jumped. We have used tutors to reinforce what's learned in school, which helps. Using "fun" online resources also helps. An understanding SN teacher at school is reassuring and supportive. But in my experience piling on the pressure doesn't get anyone anywhere. It's the summer hols, so maybe relax a bit, arrange a meeting with the new teacher early on in September to discuss practical strategies (don't be fobbed off!) and see how you go. There's still a long time before the GCSE!

And again,honestly, if my Discalculic child (or the other one who just found maths difficult) was averaging 50% I'd be jumping for joy!!

QueenOfNothing · 31/07/2015 05:49

Certainly sounds like the problem is he's in the wrong school rather than him.

And I suspect your despair is about him not getting into to a top school at 13 rather than about GCSEs

Because he certainly sounds like he's on track to get at least a C at GCSE

If he was in a different school he'd be bang on average and feel better about himself.

Which would then allow him to flourish and increase his grade.

NatGeo · 31/07/2015 06:52

homebysea Yes reading back now it does sound rather melodramatic, but at the time that's how I felt, just fed up. I think I need to explain further - Whilst we have high expectations of we do not in anyway expect him to have same grades as his brother, that would be unfair. I think the reason we work so hard at the maths is because it's such a crucial subject.
I think I will start enforcing the 'learn the rule method', he is good at remembering things like that.
Queen despairing at him not getting into a top school? Shock far from it. We parked those dreams a long time ago, although I still feel sad thinking about it sometimes. But you are correct, we are worried about 13+, Infact that is a big worry. the main reason we are not delighted with 50% is that we measure success by the year median figure, if the median for maths is 75% then 50% -60% to me is a failure? We're not sure how this will translate into CE. Also his school is not considered academic, it's the one people go to for nurturing and other nice fluffy warm factors, so that adds to the worry. Although saying that, his year has some VERY high achievers, who have secured places at seriously academic schools e.g St Paul's and its ilk.

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QueenOfNothing · 31/07/2015 07:14

50% may well mean he can't get into the school you want for him. But it does not mean he'll fail his GCSEs.

He's only doing badly compared to his cohort. He's not actually doing badly.

homebythesea · 31/07/2015 07:32

What is his requirement for CE? We very carefully nursed number one child through CE maths to make sure his score didn't adversely affect the average across all the other subjects. This is where some intense tutoring can be helpful nearer the time. However your prep school should be talking to you if they think (for whatever reason) he is not going to make the grade for your chosen senior school. How is communication with the prep on that issue? We moved number two child to a through school to avoid any entrance exam issues!

As a postscript, the older one languished in near bottom sets for maths (in near top sets for everything else) and by some amazing miracle scraped a B at GCSE. We went through all the feelings of despair and frustration and worry as you are, and continue to do so with the other child who is in Y10 now, but actually it usually sorts itself out. Keep the faith!

happygardening · 31/07/2015 07:35

He was assessed for dyslexia and dyscalculia by an ed. psych and that's how we got the processing scores etc.
His math was very erratic, apparently, teachers would complain that 90% of the time his maths was completely rubbish and then apparently he'd display moments of pure brilliance this would leave them very frustrated.
In the last four months of year 11 after we made a fuss at his completely rubbish "high achieving outstanding academy" he was moved into a math set for children who were good at math from the a set for no hopers interestingly that made a big difference.
We gave up with the idea of sitting CE at 13+ and moved him back to the state sector as IMO "nurturing and other fluffy warm factors" type schools are a complete waste of money.
We're currently waiting for A2 results and I very much doubt he would have done any better or as importantly been any happier or been understood any better anywhere else.
As predicted by the ed. psych many moons ago as he's matured he's leant to cope with his problems and develop his own strategies to overcome it, doing it for himself boosted his confidence and he on his own then refined these techniques and this further boosted his confidence etc. attending a very large and relaxed 6th form college definitely helped where he could find other like minded friends. It's just taken a very long time for him to get where he is.

NatGeo · 31/07/2015 08:36

Unfortunately there's no chance to a move to state sector. He was in the state sector before and transferred to indie in yr3. State school did not even pick up on any of his symptoms, he went completely under the radar as there were about 31 in class, and a few children with far worse problems than him. He was considered okay, because he was achieving the national targets.
The fluffy warm school has worked wonders in that his other talents have been discovered, art, music, and creative writing and this has really boosted his confidence, they also recognised some of his symptoms and led us to getting a diagnosis.

I think from what everyone has said, we probably need to get him assessed by an Ed Psych again as it's been 3 yrs now, and just perverse, using some of the techniques mentioned.

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Lurkedforever1 · 31/07/2015 10:59

I'm not discounting anyone else's thoughts, but just to offer another perspective perhaps worth considering.
If it was just a learning curve that made him appear very able, and he's now leveled out, he might not actually have just levelled at the ability he currently is. It sounds like there's been a lot done to try and get him better, and in his head the pressure might be giving him a mental block of some kind.
I don't mean for a second you've been hounding or pressuring him. Just that from his perspective he may well feel that even with all the support he's never going to be as good as he should be, and is therefore crap and there's no point trying, so has convinced himself he is less able than he is. I've seen it happen in sports where a kid who was previously top end levels out at above average when they've passed that stage of development that made them top, and they see that as a failure and convince themselves they can't do it at all. And course tell yourself you can't do something and you're useless and you'll usually live up to that and it's a vicious circle. Again not thinking of pushy, over demanding parents, just supportive ones where nevertheless the child gets the wrong end of the stick.
I think short term I'd be inclined to drop all the tutoring and maths support, tell him nobody is great at everything etc and it doesn't matter and drop the subject. Because whatever the cause I can't imagine he's feeling confident or happy about anything mathematical.
The only thing I'd possibly do is play chess, he won't see it as an educational maths game, but to an extent it's the same logical thinking and problem solving, to perhaps get an idea of his ability to reason/ problem solve. And possibly monopoly, working out which is the best investment etc is basic maths, but as it's also luck, and kids see it as a game, losing isn't more proof in his head he is crap. Not saying the maths in monopoly is complex, but doing something with numbers, basic calculations will not only give you an unadulterated view of whether he's just not very good or its confidence, but might help him see that he can actually use and apply basic maths and that it can be useful and fun rather than a chore. Maybe puzzle books with suduko and kakuro, they're good for lower level mental maths and number bonds, but only if he will find them simple from a maths pov, won't relate them to your concern and therefore a confidence boost.

NatGeo · 31/07/2015 11:26

Thank you for your very valid thoughts Lurked. DS loves chess! But none of us know how to play, so he plays it at school. Recently we got a sitter to watch DS whilst we went out for the evening, when we returned he had been playing monopoly with the sitter. We haven't played it in years and was quite surprised he knew how to play. So it's quite strange that you mentioned those two games.

I'll certainly now make a point of starting this game playing tradition and perhaps learn how to play chess.

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HarveySchlumpfenburger · 31/07/2015 11:29

Don't rule out the state sector. Not all schools are the same within the same sector. It doesn't appear that indie's working out all that well for him either.

And get yourself out of the mindset that scoring below median on an indie school exam is a failure. Especially if he's scoring 50-60%. It isn't and he's likely to be picking up on your feelings even if you think you are being careful to hide them.

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