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Selective junior schools

39 replies

Pennies · 11/11/2006 17:20

Just been to see a school which has a selection process for all intake - even from Reception. I personally think this is ludicrous for such a young age. They spend the afternoon playing games there. What are they expecting to see that makes them think they'll deign to accept a child?

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LIZS · 11/11/2006 17:30

Presumably private ? Usually as part of the "assessment" they are simply looking for children who behave, share , cooperate, follow instructions perhaps sit through a story and respond to a discussion. Not really arduous on the child's part tbh and probably doesn't prove anything long term. Some schools actually inetrveiw 3/4 year olds! dd spent a morning with her peers the term before she was due to start Reception and "passed" but ds had to sit a written test for Year 3 entry.

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Judy1234 · 11/11/2006 17:48

It works fine. Haberdashers where my daughter went use to assess and have entry at 7 with written tests but found they could assess as well at 5 and that change has not affected their A level league table position at all. North London C. where my other daughter went again used to start at 7 but now at 5, again they have found testing at that age can work.

What helps? You can often tell a bright child at that age. Can they concentrate? Can they kick a ball? Can they pick out their name? Can they read at all yet? Can they hold a pencil? Do they interact with other children or kick them in the teeth? Will they listen to a teacher? Then tests too - you can test things without having learned skills. It's not too difficult and the schools have vast experience of it. They wouldn't do it if they found they ended up with children with IQs of 90 - 110 as they'd ruin the whole school going through so clearly it works.

Also there can be more competition at those schools that have a senior part at 11 so can be better to try to get them in at 5.

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funkychic · 11/12/2006 15:30

Dear Xenia

My D is due to attend the Habs and NLCS assessment in January. Pleeease try let me know exactly what your DD was asked and how I can 'Coach' my D. Many thanks.

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Judy1234 · 11/12/2006 15:47

At age 11?
My daughter got in at 4 and the other to NLCS at 7 but they both had to do the 11+ test too without an interview. Amusing they both also tried the other's schools at 11 and failed to get in.

Assuming you mean 11, good luck. I wouldn't worry about it. Things matter much less than we think at the time. Daughter 2 (cleverest child in the family reading at 3 etc didn't get into her sister's school at 5, seemed such a pity at the time but NLCS was as good, probably better and it actually did the girls good to be at different schools. It was gain for the family although it seemed like a loss at the time.

If you mean academcially - just find a tutor who has got a lot of children into those schools at 11 and do a lot of practice papers. If she gets an interview I'm not sure because mine didn't have one at 11. I suppose they look for someone who will talk - hard to interview someone who is silent and crying, someone who says they have some genuine interests whether it's insects or trains, netball or gardening but probably best if it's not just pop music and TV. Do a few practice interviews.

I think the main thing is to make the child think it is of very little significance and you'd be delighted whatever shcool they get into. Avoid taking a child to an interview who is a nervous wreck and thinks the whole future happiness turns on their performance that day. It's no big deal.



I wrote this in our local free magazine earlier this year not that I'm an expert. I don't think it gives away who I am...

"More School for Thought

Heather Harris? excellent article School for Thought (Optima 15th April) about the difficulties for parents finding state schools to suit their children in Hertfordshire prompted me to write too about the independent school side of things, as a parent with some children still in the system (hence my anonymity here) and some children at university. We certainly shared her concern to get the right education for our children. Who doesn?t? Having been right through the system to university entrance with some of our children I certainly feel much less worried about things with the youngest children. I was privately educated from age four and in part I chose my career when a teenager to enable me to pay schools fees later (good forward planning there) so there was little question that we would pick private schools for the children, despite having a large family. Living in this area gives us some of the best state and private schools in the country.

Where else but Herts/Harrow/Brent would you be able to choose between Jewish, Catholic and even Muslim state schools, real live grammar schools in Bucks, schools like Watford Grammar (which is not 100% selective so the grammar name is a bit misleading), never mind at least 15 or more independents from schools like North London Collegiate (often third best in the country of all schools for raw A level results), St Paul?s and Westminster to those for the less academically able in the private sector. There are even a smattering of boarding schools like Harrow too for those who think that is not emotionally damaging. Unlike inner London, schools out this way in the state sector are not too bad. However any glance at the academic league tables shows that it is rare to see a single state school in the country in the very top placings.

We are lucky to have reasonably intelligent children who have been to Haberdasher?s, Elstree, North London Collegiate, Edgware and Merchant Taylor?s, Northwood. Is there choice is the first question? Certainly there is more choice than in the state sector. Indeed quite a few parents pay to send their children to independent preparatory schools to help their children pass for state grammars at 11+ (or use tutors as Heather?s article mentioned as indeed the Blairs did for their children who exclusively went to state schools) and then if they fail the 11+ and cannot go to the selective grammar, send them to independent schools at 11 or 13 as a fall back (if money is tight). Other parents cram into the independent sector at 11 where there can be more competition for places than at the same schools at age 5.

We simply followed my own education and started our children at 4 or 5 in the private sector. Most of the schools can see through coached children, so the important thing is to pick a school your child will be happy at. Sadly many parents have an over inflated view of how bright their child is. Good primary and preparatory schools can let down parental expectations gently when secondary education is being considered. I would not have wanted to send my children to a school where so few parents wanted to send their children there that there was no competition for places, so I am delighted it is competitive to get into the best schools with several children for each place, just like real life, just like the workplace. Learning to cope with failure and realising you may not be the bee?s knees and there actually exist people in the world cleverer than you are does not do children too much harm, particularly if they have some areas in which they can excel.

The cleverest children may well get offers from all the schools they apply to as you would expect. It is a free market. There will also be other children you almost feel a parent should pay the school to take off their hands. Such is the way of the world.

What can parents do to help their child get into the private school that suits them? First do some research. Know which schools are the most academic and which suit children who perhaps have a lower IQ and find lessons hard. Look at past papers. Visit schools. Read prospectuses. Look at logistics. The best biggest independent schools run private coach services which we found so helpful. Some have 50 coaches a day from Hampstead to Potters Bar and beyond. Each summer look at the A level league tables for private and state schools. Look at the position over 5 years (often schools have a fluke year). Look at various newspapers nationwide leagues tables for A levels, still our gold standard and what counts for university entrance. Do this well in advance, not just a year before you will pick a school. Look at your child. Are they bright? Do they need special help? Lots of private schools have very good dyslexia units for example, but you need to pick a school with that kind of assistance. Find out where children who go to the schools you prefer come from. A primary school which gears up the children to an entrance exam of a certain kind is likely to be better than one which regards private education as an insult to Marx and that encouraging bright children to pass exams for the private sector as their lowest priority.

Personally I think the most important thing you can do, particularly with little children, is read them every night a bed time story, enjoy books with them, let them see you reading, hear them read every day, encourage their spellings, practise times tables with them, give them structure, routine, good food, security, comfort, love, loads of time to be bored and at all costs avoid activities every school day. Imagination comes from boredom and playing in gardens and woods with sticks and ropes. However we certainly found learning musical instruments helped our children in lots of ways. The discipline of practising and the pleasure from the instruments was good, as was parents sitting down and helping whatever the activity might be. It is the parental interest and time that matters rather than what the activity is. All the sport our children did helped them as well and was fun. I remember years of the ?no television watching in the week rule? and the like. All these things help. Encourage them to be outgoing, have friends and be able to interact with other children. Help them to learn how to concentrate and listen. No one wants a class of 20 badly behaved children, although schools at the very young end may well choose a mix of loud and quiet children to achieve balance.

It is hard to interview a 3 or 4 year old who will not speak and has never been apart from their mother or father. Make sure they know how to hold a pencil and turn the pages of a book and perhaps can write their name or recognise it on a card. If you want to there are a few companies which help prepare children for entrance and help parents choose schools (and indeed can be engaged for consultancy advice on how to get into Oxbridge!) although more people use normal academic tutors.

Children in most decent private schools tend to be at least a year ahead of state school children in most areas of work, so if you start in the state sector you might need to help them move forward a bit for private school entrance tests at 11. Very clever children from very poor homes may get all their fees paid at some private schools if they win academic scholarships. One of our children won a music scholarship.

So for us the principle was get them in as young as we could to the schools we thought would suit them which might make competition at 11 easier, although those schools like North London Collegiate and Haberdashers with junior and infant parts do not guarantee, for obvious reasons, a place at 11. Some children get in by a fluke at 4 and clearly at 11 are in the wrong school. Such changes are however rare.

The greatest misconception I ever hear from some parents (usually not those of children at the academic schools) is that the schools push the children too hard. Parents saying this are usually just jealous their little darling failed entrance to the school concerned or did not have a cat in hell?s chance of getting in. We never found any undue pressure. The schools are full of bright children working to a similar standard and the schools play down the competition, do not display marks and treat the children as individuals. If there is pressure it tends to come from the children themselves. The school is saying take a break from revision, do your Gold Duke of Edinburgh award, be a rounded person, debate, travel, do voluntary work, obtain an education in the very broadest sense of which exams are one small part. If anything the opportunities for sport and music and other hobbies from learning Mandarin to chess club are much broader at the bigger more selective schools and often brighter children are better at their hobbies anyway as their general competence extends to all areas of their lives.

For parents with a child who is not very clever, in some ways the private system can be an even more important choice. The really academically gifted can get their 11A*s in many a reasonable state school. 94% of children in the UK go to state schools and do fine at them. The child who always follows the herd in copying the worst behaviour possible, has no personal discipline or impetus and is happy to settle to work at the average of a very low average class might be the one who would benefit from a class size of 20 or under and lots of individual attention in a private school with a huge value added score.

School is about fun and learning for learning?s sake. I love it when my children?s teachers have gone beyond the curriculum on the GCSE or A level course. I remember my brother?s school used to teach the boys university level science in the sixth form because they found the A level then too easy and they wanted a broader scope. The private sector has no obligation to follow the national curriculum or ridiculous teacher administration imposed by Government on the whole. A whole afternoon a week for sport, Saturday school in some schools, a school day to 5.45pm to allow time for hobbies and indeed sometimes to do all homework at school, all these things and more are possible in that kind of an environment.

Play the market. Why apply for one school if your child may not get in there? Sit for several just like university applications and have a back up, if all else fails. No child will feel too pressured by that unless the parents put on the pressure. The state system in some areas of the UK is a mess with a new system where if you do not get your first choice school you can be allocated the school no one else wanted. Therefore parents have been having to decide whether to put what is really their 2nd choice first so that they do not end up at school number 5. Selection in much of the country is by house price anyway. Often paying private school fees and having several good private schools to choose from is a lot cheaper than having to buy a house within a catchment area where prices are high without having the power or control or choice that admissions policies will not be changed anyway.

The best private schools do not interview parents and often mark papers without knowing the identity of the candidate. If a school gives places based on registration at birth you can bet it is not very academic. Use that as an indicator too. You will however need to apply about a year before the child applies for entry at 11+ and 4/5+.

Children love pressure and competition, who won, who is best, who won the fight so I have never believed competitive pressure on them is a problem. On the other hand I never placed it on my children. They do not need to know competition for places at a school is hard or that it even matters to you at all where they go. Do not talk about it in front of them. Just say there is a little test they are doing for a few schools so that the schools and they can choose who will go where. For many children their pushy anxious parent is the worst pressure they have. Play up all the schools to the child, even your worst private school choice. It is likely to be fine whichever they go to. I know whatever they do in terms of school entrance or exam results what really matters is that they live good and fulfilling lives which exploit their potential. They can do that in all manner of ways.

Finally do not assume private is always best. Many a little private school set up in someone?s house with few subjects offered and poor exam results is much worse than a good state primary or secondary. Just because you pay does not mean it will be better so do compare all kinds of schools. For me the selective academic environment has always suited me and my family and that was first school priority. Other things matter too, good physical school environment, teachers I felt we could trust, lack of parental interference in the school (which you can get too much in some state schools), not to mention sitting on acres of lawn of school grounds, in a pretty summer dress and high heels drinking wine, listening to Handel whilst a wonderful fireworks display is set off in the background. Bliss.

By a parent"

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bakedpotato · 11/12/2006 16:05

Hello Pennies, in a catchment panic we submitted dd to our local private school's selection procedure (2 separate 45-min play/story/craft sessions from what I could gather). She was 4, going for a reception place. It felt so wrong. Thankfully, she got into our local state primary, so we did not have to take them up on their offer of a place.
It was hard to work out what they'd 'done' to the children (we weren't allowed to accompany, which dd found distressing not surprisingly) but dd did report back she'd written her name. She is fairly old for her year, so this was no big deal for her. Three other children we know with summer bdays who could not -- did not get offered places. Honestly I think at this age, it's this random.

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blueshoes · 11/12/2006 16:16

Xenia, thanks for posting your article. It is good to get the perspective of someone well-versed in the private/state debacle.

I have a question that I have been grappling with I hope to get your views on. Dd was not selected at 3 for entry into the nursery of a selective pre-prep/prep. My dilemma now is whether to gun for another academic mixed pre-prep/prep - but which is very much the little school owned by headmasters with limited facilities (intake of 15 a year) - or to go for a more rounded education at a larger private girls' school with better facilities/selection of courses but which is not particularly academic, esp at senior level.

At 3, I don't know whether dd will be academic but she certainly does not read or know her letters.

My thoughts are to start in the 2nd option and if she shows promise, to get her into an academic school at 7.

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Judy1234 · 11/12/2006 16:20

You want them to go to a place which is preparing them for entrance tests at 7 so whichever of those options does that. My sister's children are in the same position and she's picked a school that stops at 7 and is geared to entrance tests at that age. Always ask where the leavers go and how many to each school as that's a good key test.

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funkychic · 11/12/2006 16:29

Xenia, Fantastic article. Very informative. I was particulary referring to the 'playgroup' asssement at 4+ at both Habs and NLCS. Apart from the usual recognition of letters and alphabet I would really like an idea of what exactly they ask them, and as you said your DDs went to both schools I thought you might have first knowledge of this.

As you might underdstand, I would like to give my DD the best possible preparation I can and that of course mean being prepared and knowing what to expect. Thanks for your help/information in advance.

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blueshoes · 11/12/2006 16:38

Sadly, Xenia, there are no schools that end at 7 in my desolate patch of SE London, or at least near enough for me to consider.

I suppose I could try at 7 (is there tutoring at this age??), failing which the next point of entry is 11, which the little pre-prep/prep is geared for. So I should go for the little academic pre-prep/prep with no facilities/breadth of courses, rather than the large less academic girls' school with better facilities/courses?

You can tell I am agonising.

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Judy1234 · 11/12/2006 16:42

Little academic pre prep may be best. My mother who was an good primary schoool teacher prepared our brother for entrance at 6+ at Newcastle Royal Grammar. She got a lot of past papers and worked with him on them and they worked on spellings and tables etc. In fact he got in a year young.

I am not really an expert on what they ask at those schools. I used to go to the open days from when the girls were about one to see if I could catch the class teacher for age 5 and ask her but I doubt anything she said really helped. AFter the 4+ I think they said they "just played" so I didn't really get much feedback from my daughters.

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RTKangaSANTAMummy · 11/12/2006 16:43

IMHO and IME there is no need for tutors

If the school is right for the child then they don't need tutoring

It is different to showing them how the exam papers @ 11+ work

If the child is tutored to pass the exam then the school isn't right for the child

They won't fit in as there is a reason for the entrance exams

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ParanoidSurreyHousewife · 11/12/2006 16:46

Ds2 has recently done his "4+"! He was asked to draw a picture of himself, listen to the start of a story (Goldilocks) and describe how he thought the story would continue, and to compare various items (bigger, smaller, lighter, heavier etc). Most of the assessment though was group observation where they're looking to see how they interact with other children, and adults, so children who had been to nursery/preschool probably had a clear advantage.

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Judy1234 · 11/12/2006 17:43

Agree with Paran and also Kanga - you can't coach at 4. At 7+ we did get daughter 2 some coaching for a few weeks just to practise essay writing and some past papers. At 11 it might help. But really dull coached children you can just spot that a mile away. They can't deviate from their trained path. They don't have original ideas. They'e like robots. What you don't want to find at 11+ however is that everyone else had practise of exam papers and your own children didn't. I know Habs juniors in the last year was spending a lot of time getting their own girls ready for the 11+ there.

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julienetmum · 11/12/2006 20:51

Very interesting reading.

None of the private schools around here test at 3/4. Dd is in reception class at a pre-prep that has only been open for 3 years. She started in the nursery there as soon as it opened. Previously they just had 7plus entry for which there was a written test.

Now they allow any children starting at 3/4 to go straight through to 11 but any starting at 7 still have a test. They prepare for entrance to their own senior school at 11 via verbal and non verbal reasonons classes.

Last year the majority of children from the prep gained entrance into the senior school. However dd's classroom assistant had a dd at the local Catholic prep and told me out of 40 children in year 6, only 18 gained entrance to the linked (used to be private but now state grammar) school. Most places went to children from local state Catholic primaries.

I chose the school less for its academic record (the senior school has an excellent reputation) but more for the breadth it offers and the emphasis on sport and the arts. Also it is one of the few schools that is mixed during prep, then single sex for senior and a mixed 6th form.

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Judy1234 · 11/12/2006 22:50

So it can't then be a very academic prep school because if the average UK IQ is 100 you'll have people under that and many just on the average getting in. Interesting. The traditional prep school model was completely comprehensive and then the school would advise you in the last 4 years if you had a child who was suitable for which kind of school and then the sifting took place at 13/common entrance. Some of these very academic schools found they could test as easily at 7 or even 5 which is fascinating. Or are they saying however low the child's IQ at 4 they can get it up higher through their teaching?

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ParanoidSurreyHousewife · 11/12/2006 23:08

Our prep takes any ability (but weeds out behaviour) at 4, then academic assessment at 7, 9 and 11. Discussions about future schools start in Year 3 and in Years 5 and 6 you have different classes for grammar + independent 11+ scholarship, independent selective and 13+. You are steered towards what would be most suitable for your son, but typically you're kept informed all along the way. In Years 7 and 8 there is a separate scholarship class.

In general most of the boys who come through from 4 are up for 11+/13+, but there are say 4 or 5 at 11 who end up at a less academic private school. Whilst not academically assessed I would be amazed if the mean or median IQ on entry was 100, as just from knowing the mothers, the average maternal IQ would definitely be higher than average.

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julienetmum · 11/12/2006 23:58

Well put it this way Xena, all the other prep schools in the area sit their children for dd's senior school exam at either 11 or 13 plus. It is in the top 50 independent schools at A level (going by the tables in The Times & The Independant which take UCAS points which is more relevant to me)

Whether entry to the senior school from the prep remains as high once the current intake move through I don't know and to be honest I don't really care. I didn't like the other two preps and interestingly since the pre-prep opened at dd's school several parents moved their children. They have only admitted 3 and 4 year olds for the past 3 years remember, previously it was 7 plus.

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julienetmum · 12/12/2006 00:00

Sorry, to clarify, they moved their children from the other two pre-preps to dd's pre-prep

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julienetmum · 12/12/2006 00:01

All this for fees of between £6-7k a year inclusive of meals etc.

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frances5 · 12/12/2006 09:22

ParanoidSurreyHousewife,

IQ is at least partically genetic. Also parents have to be reasonally intelligent to earn the kind of money necessary to pay school fees. Also the sort of parents who choose to send their children privately dont do stupid things like binge drinking in pregnancy, smoking, poor diet that lowers IQ. The children also have a some type of routine in their lives.

The "Honey we are killing the kids" type families are not found in private schools.

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Judy1234 · 12/12/2006 09:23

The interesting point where there is no selection except by ability to pay fees is that despite what I said we all know the average IQ won't be 100. So we must be saying parents who can afford to pay fees have a high IQ. They probably went to university, probably IQ of over 120 and their children probably do. Obviously that is not always the case. Look at Prince Harry and his mother and there are some boarding schools known for taking particularly not so academic children and in every area of the country are the private schools children go to if they aren't clever enough for the more academic ones so I suppose the selection at 11 can then take place. My twins for example may or may not go to the same school at 13.

In some ways the let them all in at 4 model worked well because it's kinder and you can admit siblings even if one has a 140 IQ and the other barely scrapes 100 but you then need the divisions you mentioned which most of the prep schools have at the upper end of a scholarship class etc. My daughters went to schools with junior schools attached so those schools need more carefully to assess at 7 or 5 which they've now had years of experience of doing and do seem able to do it accurately which surprised the schools. Most parents would say how can you tell at 4 whether someone is going to be bright or not.

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Loshad · 12/12/2006 09:37

All mine were assessed at 4 (or for the summer baby)3 for entry into the reception class. like others have said they are loooking for social interaction - yes the parents are left in the libary making small talk with a cup of coffee, one or two did cry and it does not automatically exclude them. They play, answer questions, do jigsaws, are asked to tidy up after they have had a toy out to play, draw pictures of themselves, and their family, and write their name (not all can do that) - however DS4 only drew me, his dad, himself and his oldest brother and then said he'd done enough drawing - wasn't a problem. Ds2 refused to wear a name sticker (he was the 3 yo) they said to him, oh but there are two boys called "X" in this group - so he replied "if the other child wears a sticker, then you still know which X is which"! - he still got in. So little robots or automations not required, but those children who spend the whole assessment not talking, drawing or interacting with their peers or staff tend not to get a place. They seem broadly to have got it right - the pre-prep dept has only been open 10 years, before that they started at 7, but they have only had to ask less than a dozen to leave before senior school, and of those, 3 of them were actually rejected by the school at reception, but managed to get a place in Y1 or 2.
The mixed school in the next town up rejected one of DS3's pals for reception entrance - he's one of the brightest in the class, so obviously some schools make mistakes

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ParanoidSurreyHousewife · 12/12/2006 10:32

I guess parents must also use some common sense when choosing a school though. If you have inherited versus earned money you will still be able to assess whether a school is likely to be too much academically inclined for your children I would have thought. But then one of the selling points of our school is that it does work very hard on secondary school placement and ensuring that the child goes on to the best school for them.

I'm not that sure about a generalisation that those who can afford private school automatically come from higher IQ stock. Whilst the majority of parents at our school are professionals etc there is more recent trend of familes where both parents work at "normal" jobs but have been used to paying for childcare for several years so opt for private school (though typically only have one child to pay for!).

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Issymum · 12/12/2006 10:36

Love to help here, but DD1 failed her 3 year old assessment for Guildford High School! I guess I could provide some 'anti-top-tips'!

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frances5 · 12/12/2006 11:01

"Look at Prince Harry and his mother and there are some boarding schools known for taking particularly not so academic children and in every area of the country are the private schools children go to if they aren't clever enough for the more academic ones so I suppose the selection at 11 can then take place. My twins for example may or may not go to the same school at 13"

Princess Diana or Prince Charles did not have to pay the school fees out of earned income. Joe Taxpayer paid for Harry and William to attend Eton. I am sure that Harry would not have got a place at Eton if he hadnt been Royal. It makes me feel that Eton has no principles.

I have no idea how Diana's parents found the money for her school fees. Prehaps they inherited the money.

Having bright parents doesnt guarentee bright kids but it helps.

My son attends the local state primary. He is enjoying it. There isnt a local prep school near by that would suit my son.

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