Went to IEP meeting for ds yesterday. Realised that they don't understand him at all. Where do I go next?

[clumsymum]

Ds was given an IEP for the first time this term, because last year they had some problems with his behaviour in class, shoving other kids, refusing to settle down to work etc.

He moved up to a new teacher (now in Yr 2), and at the beginning of term we had a discussion about how to handle him. I explained that at home he has very tight boundaries, we have periods of imposing VERY strict discipline when he 'gets above himself' and that puts him back on track.
We feel he may be slightly affected by aspergers syndrome (we vacillate between thinking he is or is not), he is certainly very bright, school agrees with this.
They say he has little empathy with other children (which is why he thinks it's okay to hurt them), and doesn't read his teacher's face when she looks at him.

At yesterday's meeting his teacher was very negative. Altho' the occurences of 'violence' (her word) have decreased significantly, he has increased his 'petty annoyances' which disrupt the class, such as repeatedly rattling pencils on the desk when teacher is talking, refusing to co-operate when asked to complete a piece of work, pushing in the middle when the children have to line up for assembly etc. Teacher was negative in that she kept saying 'we can't continue to have .....' but didn't offer any suggestions to fix it. The teaching assistant suggested that he "can't be good for a whole day, doesn't know how, and we should shorten the targets otherwise he can't succeed and that will damage his self esteem."

But I know that he can be good for a whole day (admittedly it's an effort). I know that he is very controlling and manipulative, and that he can find satisfaction in annoying someone, which I believe is what is happening with his teacher. In other words, he has got them just where he wants them, he's controlling the situation, and he knows it. Meanwhile the vibes I got from his teacher were that the sooner she can get rid of him the better. I think she is angling to get him suspended.

I understand that she has 26 others in the class, but I can't understand how this 7 year-old can have her bamboozled (she's a middle-aged experienced teacher).

I did express my feeling that ds may be bored by the work. The one piece of homework he gets each week is well below his abilities, and we have to stretch it for him. Last week his homework was "draw something symmetrical" . We ended up in a discussion he started about whether you can have a symmetrical 7-sided shape, and how you set about drawing a dodecahedron (his wording)!
His teacher's response was very negative, saying "There are opportunities for him to take the work forward, but he chooses not to " but surely 7 year-olds need more positive leading ??


Of course I have thought lots about this overnight, and realised there are things I should have said at the time. Can I ask for another meeting?

The SENCO has started the ball rolling for referral to an ed. psych. and we'll have other meetings then, but I know that can take time, and I'm worried in the meantime that his actual education is going nowhere.

DH and I talked last night (he's working away, and couldn't come to the meeting). He started to suggest that if they can't cope I should consider Home Ed. But with him working away most of the time I'm not sure that ds and I being together 24/7 would be healthy for either of us, nor whether I could keep my sanity long-term.


Sorry this is soooooo long. Comments please, becos I'm feeling very depressed about this right now.

[CristinaTheAstonishing]

My DS has "social club" with a few other children in class, once a week or so. He is in mainstream school (yr 2, started this in yr 1) but he is deaf and has this social club for this side of things, i.e. to help him learn in a small and quiet group how we make requests, how we listen when other people talk, how we follow conversations etc. Maybe your DS could have something similar, adapted for him? My DS attends this with a few other kids with no hearing problems, but as it's not a "holding them back" situation, they all benefit from it. It's run by his LSA.

[Hattiecat]

was the senco in on the meeting with you? and is there a teaching assistant in with the class for the whole day and does he get any one to one support from that assistant? i would ask for another meeting with them and air your concerns further. how does ds feel about all this?

[Bink]

Ah, I know exactly what you're dealing with (see my posts about my ds, who's also 7 & in yr3).

Boredom is no doubt part of it, for our sorts of boys: eg my ds is a dream on school trips, because everything is new and interesting and the deal is you're allowed to ask as many questions as you want, & you're allowed to make of the trip whatever you want instead of having to meet an imposed Learning Intention ... but he is regularly a pill in class, especially in the dull autopilot bits like unpacking your homework folder. But I think addressing the boredom might not be the magic key - our school is good at offering extension work for ds, and sometimes he'll go for it - but sometimes he'll just use that as a yet another messing around opportunity. (Cue disappointed, as well as frustrated, teacher.)

I don't have a solution - in my least stressed moments I can see that the real answer for this kind of boy is Growing Up, but that doesn't always help when you're feeling down about what's happening right now.

However, what does seem to help are target systems which are steady and constant - so that what he should be doing is at the forefront of his mind all the time. Last year my son had a record book where his teachers rated his behaviour lesson-by-lesson, and this did seem to help - he's been put back on it this year, after a rocky "boundary-testing" start to the term, and this time he's got to rate himself too. We'll see how it goes. Really, that's the only tactic that we've tried that seemed to pay off.

Sorry for long post - hope something useful!

[clumsymum]

Bink, Thank you, first of all for the comment about "our sort of boys". I spent the last 18 hours feeling like my son was the only one like this.

You're right, he has very few problems with school trips, and isn't a problem when at Beavers sessions, because there is always something happening, it's new and different.

I'm interested by the idea of his target book, where he gets rated a lesson at a time. I think he might also benefit from being given the opportunity to judge himself. Normally he only gets to discuss it with me, right at the end of a day. If I ask him why he behaved in a particular way this morning, he'll just shrug and say "don't know", but we might get closer to it if there was an opportunity to make an immediate note.

Thanks, any other suggestions would be gratefully received.

[sorrell]

I'm a bit shocked that you describe him so negatively - ie 'very controlling and manipulative' etc. Is it just your frustration and upset coming out? Does he have a diagnosis of Aspergers at all or is that what you are trying to get now? I suspect it would help the school understand him better. She might be able to see the rattling pencils not to annoy her but to calm him, and that he simply doesn't understand queuing like other people, and may even have issues with body/spacial awareness.

[clumsymum]

Hattiecat,

Yes the Senco was in the meeting. He's very 'nice', a mild mannered man, but he doesn't seem very effective. He certainly didn't seem to have any comment to make about teacher's negativity, but he is the one suggesting the Ed. Psych. At least he was the one in the previous meeting who said that they would ease the fairly tough suspension rules for ds. This was because I pointed that that once ds realised he could get suspended and hence have my 1-to-1 attention every day, he would play the system so he never had to go back into school again.

DS does get one session a week with the teaching assistant, with 2 other of the "more able" children in the class. They are running a project reviewing books for this half of term. In the last couple of weeks she has also spent a couple of short 1-to-1 sessions with him, to try to get him to talk about his feelings and what is happening. She says he doesn't seem to have a very high opinion of himself. For example, asked to make a list of what he's good at, and what he isn't so good at, he can't easily suggest things for either list. I have a suspicion that this is partly because he doesn't find the exercise very interesting. Certainly out of school we all feel that there is very little problem with ds's self-esteem.
I wonder if they would get more response if they asked him to make a list of the characters in his Lego StarWars computer game.

[clumsymum]

Sorrell, I'm sorry if my description shocked you, but that is how my little boy can be, and if I tried to "gloss over" it for the sake of being positive we would never get to the nub of the problem.
If it helps I can tell you that he can be very charming, funny, loving, good company, occasionally thoughtful and very bright. But that doesn't stop the fact that he can also be very controlling and manipulative, which is part of the problem they are encountering at school, the reason for this post.

No we don't have a dx for aspergers or anything else. I have only considered it myself because my step-son (ds's half-brother, now an adult) has autism, so we are understandably over-cautious about the signs.

[Hattiecat]

i also think the target book is a fab idea. it sounds to me as if your son is aware of what is going on and i would say its really important for him to be able to be a part of this book as well - this way he is a stakeholder in his own behaviour (i often think kids are ignored in this way, and after all its all about them, and your son certainly appears bright enough to be able to do that). would the teacher/assistant be able to spend 5 minutes with him at the end of every lesson to let him talk about how he thinks its gone for him and also to tell him openly (but not in negative criticism) how its gone for them also, so to highlight eg the pencil tapping thinking being inappropriate and see if he can verbalise why he's doing it. also, does the school run any sort of peer support / buddy system where the other children will encourage the more positive behaviour, and allow his more positive behaviour to be rewarded not just to him but to the whole class - that way he's gaining some real resopnsiblity (if he can handle it - i don't know your son, so i don't know, but as i say this can really be good for everyone). its hard not knowing the school as well, as i think their attitude is so important in all of this. has anyone mentioned camhs to you at all? it may be worth a shot?

[clumsymum]

Hattiecat

no, what is camhs?

[clumsymum]

oh just googled it.

Gulp, the fact that you've suggested it makes this all look really serious

[Hattiecat]

no not at all, it can be full of really excellent people who may well be able to offer help and practical advice to you and the school (no more scary than the ed pscyh at all), but most importantly to your ds

[Bink]

Oh, yes, second Hattiecat about "buddies" systems - my ds will hurry up for a brisk bossy (but friendly) little girl, when he might well not for a teacher.

[clumsymum]

Cheers.

You are right btw, I think he can handle taking more responsibilty for himself. I suspect at the moment that he sees no benefit in doing so.

I certainly find that he is less likely to get into major trouble (i.e. sending out of the classroom type trouble, a 'red card') when I say "if you get a red card, then no computer time tonight".
The problem is that they issue two yellow cards before a red card. So he sees this as a licence to misbehave twice with no real consequences. If I do the "no computer time if you get a yellow card" it seems a bit harsh, even to me (and I am pretty strict with him about school).

He does enjoy school at the moment (good mind games, I suspect). I don't want to spoil that.

[clumsymum]

Cristina, Just realised I didn't acknowlege your post.

The social club sounds like a good idea, how did you access that resource?

[Hattiecat]

mmm, see what you mean about the two yellow cards - could you reason with him and get him to acknowledge that its a warning that he needs to give himself (almost to check himself) and he's lucky to get another opportunity to not let himself down (again onus back into him to give him that extra responsibility)

[CristinaTheAstonishing]

Re the social club - it's quite informal, something DS's teacher of the deaf and his LSA thought up because DS needs help with listening to people and carrying a conversation (I mean I know he's deaf but he just won't listen or buts in to finish your sentence etc).

[clumsymum]

Would you believe it, I've collected him from school and he's had the best day of term so far. Did some good work this morning, no real annoyances.

So I am slightly cheered. Still feel his teacher is very negative tho'. Teaching assistant came out to see how I felt about yesterday's meeting. Class teacher studiously avoided me .....

[Bink]

Well done your ds!!!

Re the teacher avoiding you - she may just be feeling awkward and uncomfortable about having had to give you an upsetting picture of your boy - some people manage better than others at being the bearer of unwelcome news. I know she ought to have experience of this, and not let it make her awkward - but some teachers just naturally have a better "bedside manner". It doesn't always mean she will always be negative about him ... one way to see is to put on a good face & be extra-friendly to her. (I find this works, and I've had a LOT of disappointed/frustrated teachers to work with - we do always seem to end up friends, though.)

[clumsymum]

Ta Bink, maybe you're right, I'll be all smiles tomorrow and next week.

I can't find your posts about your ds. Can you point me to a thread?

My 'Mother's Help' (who is a lady older than me, with masses of experience of children) can't work out why they are having such trouble with him.

[Bink]

About ds: well, this was one - which has got lots of nice perspective on it - will have a look for others.

It is quite difficult day-to-day not to get down about this, though - my ds didn't have a good day today & we had to have yet another discussion about "you can remember it's wrong to rip up books, can't you?" "Of course!!!" "Well then you can remember it's wrong to be rude". Whereas if he'd had a good day I'd be walking on air.