Grammar schools - interesting article

[UnquietDad]

it be here

I know it's over a year old, but I'm new here, so apologies if people have seen it before!

As a former grammar school boy myself - whose parents could never have afforded to go private - I found it interesting. I find it a shame that my DD won't have the same opportunity.

[CarolinaMoon]

yeah, but less ok for all those thrown on the scrap heap aged 11.

It would be nice if all schools were decent. And if they would teach practical things to people with practical talents.

btw, I went to a comp and turned out fine thankyouverymuch.

[Rojak]

I feel the same way you do UnquietDad. We live in Northern Ireland where the grammar school system still exists (but not for very long more).

I find that my grammar school ed has opened a lot more doors for me here than DH's secondary school ed. It's certainly got me better jobs in Northern Ireland.

However DH has just landed himself a job paying double what he currently earns - in Singapore!

[UnquietDad]

It would indeed be nice if all schools were decent. In different ways.

It's sad that you can never mourn the demise of the grammar school without it being implied that you want people to be "thrown on the scrap-heap at 11", or that you think people who went to comprehensives are somehow less valid human beings.

I think it's a matter of our perception - seeing secondary schools as somehow "worse" rather than different. This doesn't seem to be the case in Germany, which has four possible routes for education after the age of 10.

[Joolstoo]

Unquietdad - I think I love you!

Amen, amen, amen!

[UnquietDad]

Should add, that's 4 if you count the Gesamtschule as a separate one, of course, when it's kind of an amalgam of the other 3.

(Why do I get the feeling grammar schools are a bit of a hornet's nest topic on here? I'm staying well away from anything to do with 4x4s... )

[southeastastra]

what are the four routes in germany?

[UnquietDad]

Hauptschule - focusing on life/practical matters
Realschule - traditionally more 'scientific', now seen as a preparation for business
Gymnasium - more academic, closest thing to a grammar
Gesamtschule - offering all 3 routes

I hope I've got that right.

[southeastastra]

sounds like the answer uniquedad!

[CarolinaMoon]

everything's a potential hornet's nest on MN, unquietdad

[UnquietDad]

thank you Joolstoo, er, I'm sure I love you too!

It's why I come here, you know...

[rustybear]

It sounds an interesting idea but isn't 10 a bit early to be making that kind of decision - or can you swap later on? I'm speaking as the mum of a 16 y-o DD who still can't work out which way to go at A level - she's got 1 week before the deadline at her 6th form college! Maybe tomorrows results will give some guidance...

[MrsFio]

I am quite interested in the Hauptschule, what kind of students would that be more centered towards? and do all schools in germany have the same examination qualifications at the end?

I must admit there was NO grammar system where I lived in Staffordshire, so we never had that option anyway. My children (well ds does as dd has severe learning difficulties) will have that oppurtunity, hopefully or maybe not so hopefully, because we live in kent.

[UnquietDad]

I think it's different in each German state. Some states have an "orientation" phase to help make the decision easier.

[UnquietDad]

MrsFio - I could give you a quick summary but I think the best thing for me to do is point you here

[MrsFio]

I will try and read the link later properly but I quickly overread the Hauptschule bit and it does say that certain stigmas are attached. Maybe we arent so different to Germany afterall?

Although I never found any snobbery about schooling when I lived further North, for the reasons I mentioned earlier.

Also, are you and joolstoo married, per chance?

[UnquietDad]

Er, no!

[Joolstoo]

pmsl!!

[MrsFio]

oo err

[Alibaldi]

I went to Grammar school too and loved it. We were lucky as Rugby was and is the only place in the area where they still exist. No wonder children get complexes if you think that just because they didn't get the grades in the 12+ as it was in my time they were on the scrap heap. I'll re-iterate what I said on the A-Level thread. We cannot all be intellectually equal that doesn't mean that good schools shouldn't be available for all they should. But streaming meant IMO that children got the option to excel in subjects they were strong in not struggle in those that they would never have any use for. That's why a two tier higher education system was also good - University for those who were able to study study study more academic subjects and polytechnics/technical colleges for those who were more inclined to non-academic. What's the stigma in that!!! Let children do whatever they want to do - be it pet grooming or medicine. But please let's not force them all to be academic for they are not all academic. Whatever my boys want to do, they can as long as it's not illegal and makes them happy.

[Piffle]

My son is in a grammar school, it has been perfect for him, it's all very well wanting all schools to be of a certain standard, no one can argue with that, but as well as non grammar secondary schools failing "scrapheap" kids they even more seriously fail the brightest kids.
For some people who cannot afford private schooling for their bright kids, grammar schools offer a decent alternative
in our area it has the positive knock on benefit of making for an excellent comprehensive as well.

[Alibaldi]

Quite agree Piffle!!!

[CarolinaMoon]

alibaldi, we had streaming at my comprehensive. Some people actually moved up from the lower streams after the first year .

11 is way too early to predict most children's eventual achievement IMH(lay)O.

[Piffle]

OIh Frau, you now get to experience the joy (!) of the US schooling system...

[blackandwhitecat]

How can you be so naive Alli? Of course grammar schools are great for those who go to them as are private schools. But they're not so great if you don't or didn't go to them and so were considered 2nd best and did a different kind of examination etc etc. And how do you think the grammar school kids mysteriously get into grammar schools? Apart from the odd exception they are the kids of middle-class, reasonably well-educated and often pushy parents. And as for the idea of splitting kids from their peers at age 11 with some being destined for academic schools followed by uni followed by well-paid jobs and others being destiend for vocational schools followed by jobs working for middle-class people. Yuk. If someone said that my kids were going to a vocational school at aged 11 I'd be livid but then that wouldn't happen would it because I'm middle class and support and work in education.