A* in GCSE English but can't spell - even at Harrow!

[speedymama]

I sniggered when I read this .

I thought that one of reasons that parents pay exorbitant fees for the privilege of sending their children to private/public schools was that the smaller classes enables pupils to receive more attention from their teachers. Maybe they need to concentrate on teaching the children the basics as well as intensively coaching them to pass exams to maintain their position in league tables.

I congratulate the head of English on his candour though - he could have easily come out with some spurious line that the education his pupils receive far exceeds that of the proletariats in the state sector. I do wonder however, that if he is the head of English, wasn't this problem evident through the course work and essays that pupils write before they embark on taking their exams?

[zippitippitoes]

spelling is not so necessary now because of the availability of spell checkers..most communication comes through that system and you can use a dictionary of course.

It is the quality of the thought processes and the ability to express yourself that is more important in most employment imo

[hunkermunker]

Hmm, spellcheckers only work if you know what the word should look like right to a certain extent though...

Hence DH (dyslexic) sending an email that "apologised for any incontinence"...!

[speedymama]

On a serious note though, shouldn't spelling be more important to ensure clarity in what you are writing. For example, many people confuse advise with advice, stationary with staionery, practice with practise, dependent with dependant etc. Are the spell checkers discerning enough to identify the correct spelling for the right context? Surely it is better to have a good grasp of the language with respect to the meaning of words and to know when to use a verb (like advise) as oppose to a noun (like advice)? I'm not a master of the English language but when I read "I would like to ask someone for advise", I immediately recognise the error in the sentence. I would hope that when my boys grow up, they will have a similar knowledge and understanding of the language.

[zippitippitoes]

sounds like ds confusion between pennies and penis!

But in the case of dyslexia then it is absolutely essential that students/employees are not penalised for spelling because it would severely limit their expression to a few simple words..this is what I'm still trying to convince ds of at 18.

[speedymama]

Oops, I meant stationary with stationery

[blackandwhitecat]

Somehow I don't think poor spelling will hold back the Harrovians from getting top jobs etc etc.

Standardised spelling is a relatively recent phenomenon anyway (both Chaucer and Shakespeare spelt according to their particular dialects and sometimes spelt the same word in different ways). And it changes (e.g. Goodbye = God be with you). And non-standard spelling does not necessarily impede meaning (think of text messages).

Having said that misuse of apostrophes does drive me slightly mad. Can't explain why except that there are are clear rules for using them (unlike a lot of spelling e.g. seize, chief).

Am happy to give a lesson to various Mumsnetters on where to stick 'em if requested. I'm guessing you have better things to do though.

[zippitippitoes]

I agree in lots of respects as I am a pedant

but modern times value communication more highly than accuracy..in the example of asking for advise although grating it's still easy enough to understand and it would be possible to communicate a great idea or concept even without spelling correctly..of course ideally if presenting a report etc for publication then the triad of spellchecker/dictionary/thesaurus could be used as well as an editor!

[Beatie]

I didn't read the article the same way as you Speedymama. I think the school, particularly the Head of English, is writing that he finds disatisfaction with an exams system which awards top grades to pupils who have a poor grasp of the technical basics of English. It's a country wide problem, not one that is exclusively epidemic in Harrow School.

it's still very worrying though and perhaps other schools should follow the lead of Harrow school and introduce their own 'literacy' test and work with those who score badly.

[blackandwhitecat]

Hi Beatie, you said 'the Head of English, is writing that he finds disatisfaction with an exams system which awards top grades to pupils who have a poor grasp of the technical basics of English'. Just to point out that there's nothing 'basic' about English spelling mainly because the English language isn't really English but a mixture of German, Anglo Saxon etc. Take the 'ie' examples I gave earlier 'seize' and 'weight' and what about those words which are spelt the same but have different meanings depending on context e.g. 'wait a minute' or 'that piece of cake is minute'

[speedymama]

But Beattie, irrespective of exams, I would have thought that a school like Harrow would be teaching good English grammar anyway. That's why I'm surprise that it is an issue for them.

Anyway, like blackandwhitecat said, the poor spellers from Harrow will still get top jobs because of the old school tie network unlike the poor spellers from state schools who cannot compete on an equal footing because they do not have the same connections.

[bloss]

Message withdrawn

[Beatie]

Isn't Harrow imposing their own test on the pupils when they enter the school? So you'd need to blame the schools they came from which could be state, church or private.

[Beatie]

Aren't Harrow

[edam]

You were right with isn't Harrow, it's a singular noun as it is one organisation.

[speedymama]

Actually Bloss I did say in my OP that I applaud the stance that Harrow are taking by admitting that despite the high grades, some of their pupils could not spell and they are taking steps to rectify this.

Yes, Beatie, the primary schools could be to blame but remember, before the students take their GCSE exams, they would have attended English language classes for 5 years. Hence, my surprise that this problem was not picked up and rectified earlier. Isn't that one of the reasons why parents choose to pay exorbitant fees?

[speedymama]

I meant "infer in my OP...."

[edam]

I think it is admirable that he has spoken out. Spelling and grammar are important to ensure you are understood. The rules exist - what's wrong with teaching them to give children the tools they need to do the job? They may be irrational, and they are subject to change, but what's the point of hiding information from children? You wouldn't expect them to do maths without understanding the rules, or science - why is it OK in English?

Particularly important in state schools since those children are going to have to compete with others who have a head-start after going to independent schools where these things are still taught even if not examined. (Not the case in all independent schools, and not all independent schools are good, of course.)

The state of English in this country is deeply embarrassing when you compare it to speakers of English as a second language who are taught grammar and spelling.

Harrumph!

[zippitippitoes]

I am fairly surprised, notwithstanding, that it isn't until they have taken gcses and entered the sixth form that they have noticed that they don't spell ..it must be glaringly obvious all the way through

[Reginald]

I'm a pedant too, so my first reaction is to be appalled at the poor spelling/grammar/punctuation that appears everywhere now (even in academic textbooks!). I think zippi may be right - perhaps we are in the process of a social/linguistic shift whereby communication is valued over accuracy?

[zippitippitoes]

I think some people find spelling comes naturally..it did to me and others can't learn to spell no matter what. I reckon there are a limited number who actually learn spelling by rote and can recall those correct spellings when they need to in a piece of writing which is demanding complex thought processes/challenging ideas. Emphasis on spelling may come at the expense of academic success because it values presentation above content.

You will find pupils (usually girls ) who can write long beautifully presented essays which when read are bullshit.

[edam]

But inaccuracy hinders communication! If you can't express yourself clearly in written English, people may not understand you precisely. Why is it such a revolutionary idea that children should be given the tools they need to do the job?

The invention of the spell checker was the worst thing that happened to English - it doesn't understand context so can fail to pick up errors, or even create them. Yet people trust it and don't bother to check. (Also spell checker programs seem to have been written by computer geeks i.e. people whose grasp of English isn't always great in the first place.)

[zippitippitoes]

I think what I'm suggesting is that the lack of emphasis on spelling and grammar is egalitarian.

[Reginald]

It's not an either/or situation though (presentation over content). Learning to spell well depends on having a knowledge of the underlying rules of language rather than learning by rote, surely? Those rules are absorbed through doing a lot of reading ime. But I'm not an expert on this by any means :-S

[edam]

I don't buy spelling comes naturally as an excuse. OK, some people are better at it, just like some people are better at maths. All the more reason to teach those who aren't good at it! No-one knows 'i before e except after c' unless someone bothers to explain it in the first place.

[Beatie]

With my obvious use of poor English grammar I think I will stay off future threads complaining about English grammar.