ZOMBIE THREAD ALERT: This thread hasn't been posted on for a while.
Sick of the fuss.(124 Posts)
Having a bit of a rant here but just feel like it.
I can't understand why there is such a fuss over what school people use for their dc.
Until recently people just took their lot as the way it was, but now we all want more and not only this but what we can't have.
If there are only a few thousand that can afford certain schools so be it.
If your dc can't go to grammar so what?
If your state school is rubbish it will get better as it will be in special measure.
If your dc aren't bright so what? If the school you would like is full so what?
There have always been situations in education that weren't perfect, or others could have and you couldn't.
Why does it matter?
This was exactly the same for my dc and lots of others too. I know where you are coming from, but that wasn't really part of the point I was making. I sympathise really I do as I know what it is like having been through it twice with my ds's.
It isn't the reason but I am so glad we H.ed our dd so won't go through it again.
My point was as there is little anybody can do about it, why fuss? it doesn't get us anywhere. Its better to support. I know we shouldn't have to but extra tuition sometimes seems a better option than trusting the school.
My other points were people whose dc weren't bright and not able to go to grammar, it doesn't matter. Imo that doesn't mean we ask for the grammar system to be scrapped.
I also think in terms of choice of occupation many dc in Private schools and certainly public schools are just as limited. They are put off any occupation such as plumbing, building, electrician, carpenter etc. The vocational occupations are deemed by their parents and tutors to be below them. How do we know how many would prefer to do something else other than the few professions deemed worthy for them.
I know that I cant change my DCs' secondary school but I can make sure that the school doesnt let down my other DCs in the same way that it let down my eldest.
That is why I fuss.
I cant afford to home ed or private tutor. The poorness in the school is not limited to one subject, it is across the board.
It is an awful lot easier to change path into a vocational career with a good education behind you than it is to go into a professional career with a poor education.
A poor education means having fewer choices. Should I just accept that that is all my children are worth?
Now come back home. At first glance, morethan, you seem to have changed the goalposts since your op. Or you didnt make the points you really wanted to make, at all clear in the op.
If I have time or can be bothered, I will reply at some point.
At first glance, you seem to be saying, well mine are not very ambitious.
But you must realise that other children are not all like yours.
You seem to be saying well mine are happy where they are,
But not all other children are going to be like that.
You seem to be saying you dont want class.
I am with you there.
But other parents do want that. Perhaps that is your real point?
You say there is little anybody can do about things.
Absolutely wrong there. Many can and do and want to and dont regret it.
I think others have tried to say you are wrong in saying well children who are inclined to do so will do well whereever they go. Sooo do not agree with you there. Ask kids that you know that are at poor schools. They know and understand more than you would think.
A couple of your other points I do agree with!
With all the best intetions in the world. .It is still up to the individual if they want to succeed or not..
You as a parent can only give them the best choice you can. Sone parents can't be bothered to even do that and that saddened me.
Although I wouldn't want to label a person from whatever school they attended and prefer to see them in merit rather than nepotism.
Although having friends in the right places will always help...its a sad truth but a very real reality. O and yes private schools do very much thrive on contacts....
I have many a lazy dumbo placed on me because of favours....Its polite to employ and then to allow them to fade away....once the favour is done...
I admitted upthread that perhaps I hadn't made myself clear.
The whole fuss I referred to in the OP was not about wanting the best for your child. It was about the moaning that others have what some can't have.
It isn't fair but the world isn't fair and also when it comes to choices of occupation being limited if a child attends a poor school, I see it just as narrow if they attend some private and definitely public schools.
Just my opinion but I don't agree we all should have the same choices.
I wouldn't want somebody with no practical ability or common sense at all training to be a plumber and then working on my house. I think it down to ability, personality, upbringing, potential etc what a person decides to do with their life and not which school they go to.
I know far fewer children from state schools go to Oxford/Cambridge than the more privileged but I hear of cases all the time. My ds crummy shitty school had 4 this year. I don't hear of people from Eton, Harrow or the best private schools becoming electricians.
I think you are talking about accepting your given lot in life, education wise?
Cant agree with you particularly there either. I agree with that sentiment in life sometimes. But lilke someone else said upthread, some become school Governors, which is what I did. Or help the school in other ways, eg fundraising or drama. I never think that education is just up to the staff.
Cant see why people from all walks of life cant become skilled manual workers. Though agree that there are some parents who may actively disuade their children from doing that, which is a shame imo.
Havent been into enough schools to know whether a particular school's ethos persuades their pupils to aim for a particular job, though maybe they do?
I'm sorry morethan but I've not read such rubbish for ages! Your ds didn't go to a 'crummy shitty school' at all if 4 got to Oxbridge this year; no of KS5 students reaching 3 A levels AAB in facilitating subjects at my local 'crummy shitty school' last year was in fact 0% - 2 A levels AAB in facilitating subjects 2%. Number of students achieving EBacc at GCSE was 3% - this was from an intake of 23% high attainers and 63% middle attainers. Ofsted rated the school 'good' this year???!!! You say that everyone should stop moaning and support their dc instead but you're a post graduate and you employ tutors so you're not prepared to accept things as they are at all! Luckily, someone opened my eyes to other possibilities instead of our local 'crummy shitty school' and we made our escape, as did others - some of whom go to private schools on bursaries or gained aptitude places at outstanding schools in the next borough. Maybe that electrician could have been the next James Dyson if he'd gone to a better school.
The school my ds left this year was satisfactory and Ofsted are crawling over it. The parents were relentless in supporting their dc and the school.
I do accept things as they are, I haven't moaned about my lot, said that certain other schools shouldn't exist because my dc didn't have the same opportunities.
I did something about it, rather than making a fuss.
Maybe the electrician didn't have the business drive to become Dyson either and is happy doing what they are doing.
I can't see why people have to make a fuss rather than be active.
I don't have a problem with supporting your dc education, its what most parents do. Its the fact that some can't do it without making a fuss about what others can do.
Am i missing something here, Any (State School) including Grammar schools that get 4 kids in to Oxbridge in a year is doing something right. Morethan if you go on the performance table website at the Dept of Education. As Clavinova suggested, look at the AAB percentages for A levels, you will find even most grammar schools score under 12-15% in that measure. For a Non selective school in a socially mixed area to achieve that, is very well done.
So if there are 100 pupils in the year that is 4% going to oxbridge, that must mean 20% go to RG Universities that is excellent.
In fairness neither the dc or the parents give the school any credit for this and they are right not to.
The school is dire, really went downhill rapidly from a previous good school able to accept who they liked as CofE covering a huge diocese.
It was the sheer commitment of parents and one I believe won a scholarship or award for music which was gained through playing the organ and learning outside the school. One had been H.ed until 6th form.
It is a huge school with about 200 in sons year. Most however, don't stay on as its such a poor school and there is an excellent alternative. It isn't heard of very often but there have been other examples from our town of state school dc gaining a place.
Sorry, meant to add. It is not quite but almost as rare to hear of dc going to RG universities. The ones who choose Higher Ed usually go to a good uni though, rather than poor.
Morethan. So it was Exceptional circumstances that led to 4 kids getting into Oxbridge this year. The point is not many state schools achieve that, ever unless they have a few extraordinary students in one year.
I think the ratio Of those going RG to those going to Oxbridge would be 4 or 5 to one from a high achieving state school , someone correct me there.
I wonder how many kids from "Educating Yorkshire" play organ or get to Oxbridge. Morethan, I understand your position is "my kids are ok, so you lot should not complain and just accept your shitty schools".
I think she is saying that people shouldnt make a fuss and just do something about it.
But you op make a fuss. You get a tutor to enable your children.
I noticed from a thread you were on today, that your DH does up old buildings? Good for him. But he is able to be his own boss. And perhaps your children work for him? Great.
But you still seem to miss the point that every child is different. And some parents, for whatever reason, are not able to help their own children much in life. So it can be up to other parents to "make a fuss". For their own children, and others in their community.
Can I ask why your third child is Home Ed, but your first two were not? Did you think that the state education for your first two was not up to much, so you decided to vote with your feet as it were, or not make a fuss, and just leave state education all together the third time around?
morethan perhaps what you need to do is clarify what you mean by making a fuss.
- Is complaining to the school when a teacher is falling short making a fuss or doing something about it?
- Is making the Head aware that I hold him personally responsible for the management failings in his school making a fuss or doing something about it?
- Is posting on Mumsnet to get some sort of understanding about how unutterably crap the crappest schools actually are making a fuss or doing something about it?
no 1 = doing something about it
no 2 = doing something about it
no 3 = doing something about it.
Not doing no 1 and 2 and no3 is posting about how other people shouldn't have better than you, certain schools should be banned, etc is making a bloody fuss imo.
Our dd is H.ed because she wanted to spend her time doing what makes her happy and to pursue a career. Her primary was good and we are still in touch. There are several other schools near us that wouldn't have offered the same pastoral care, she was very lucky.
My dh and I have done up houses we live in, its not his business. He is a musician. Apart from private music lessons which dd also had when she was at school a friend who happens to have a senior position, not sure of title for the LEA in MFL tutors her Italian, we don't pay for tutors.
I wouldn't dream of suggesting that because we do this that other types of school shouldn't exist, or it isn't fair my ds didn't get to go to Eton, or a local grammar school etc.
op. I think you may be better off just hiding the education threads. You see them as fuss. Others dont.
I have come to the same conclusion
Shame though, because I'm interested in education and don't feel that some of the discussion and views are making a fuss.
Unfortunately, I find it hard to bite my lip on some occasions.
I think that the argument for saying that grammar schools or independent schools shouldnt exist is often not the school itself but what it leaves for everyone else.
If the wealthy and influential are able to buy (through fees, tutoring or house purchase) their way into good schools and more importantly away from bad schools they have no personal experience of or interest in dealing with extremely poor schools such as the one my DCs go to.
I am confident that if politicians had to send their children to their local school in their constituency without an option to buy their way into an alternative then they would make damn sure that school was good enough.
But perhaps that is just making a fuss!
I miss seeker.
People that live in grammar areas do not have the same opportunities of a comprehensive education if their child is not bright enough to get into grammar. Which is why people tutor, move house etc.
Schools that aren't grammars where we live are dire.
Join the discussion
Registering is free, easy, and means you can join in the discussion, get discounts, win prizes and lots more.Register now
Already registered with Mumsnet? Log in to leave your comment or alternatively, sign in with Facebook or Google.
Please login first.