Education superclass?

(819 Posts)
Amber2 Wed 13-Nov-13 10:49:10

This is interesting coming from John Major ...sounds like more lobbying along the lines of the Sutton Trust but do people really think it's much worse than it ever has been..? and this is do with with the inexorable rise of London...and the global money flowing in there...and so to creating an elite superclass of private schools also ...not just any old private school but a small handful of elite ones, applications to which have reached record numbers, presumably more and more from London and from overseas with over inflation rises in fees pricing out the traditional middle classes that used to be able to afford these schools.

Bonsoir Wed 13-Nov-13 14:15:30

I think there is a case for non-EU nationals to pay a special education tax when their DC attend UK independent schools.

soul2000 Wed 13-Nov-13 16:36:28

Excuse my Northern Ignorance but i thought families earning £75k PA would be Middle Class. That is probably a Teacher and another similar
professional working full time to earn that amount, it, just goes to show out of all proportion London has become. Its almost like there is a new class system now based on salary or wealth. Its something like this.

Under class = £0-20,000 PA
Working class=£20k-75k PA
Comfortable = £75kPA+ or £ 1 Million in assets
Wealthy = £250k +PA or £2-5 Million in assets
Rich = £500k+ PA or £ 10 Million in assets
Super rich = ???? or £100 Million in assets.

Truly despicable, people are dying in the UK because they can't afford heat, yet in London the definition some of these schools have for Middle class is
incomes over 500k PA .

Paris may not be a world city, but at least the French have shared out some of their country to other cities. Lyon is the food capital, Strasbourg has the European Court of human rights and other political influence ,Nice is the capital of the Cote d'azur. Germany has Frankfurt as it financial capital Hamburg is its main port Stuttgart makes world class cars Munich is its
tourism and spritural capital,Berlin as developed in to the political capital of Europe. In the United Kingdom all of this is concentrated in London and the
South East ( THE BBC ARE BASED AT SALFORD) don't make me laugh .

Weve got all political parties trying to fob of the rest of the country with the greatest vanity project ever HS2. If anything it will pull more money and expertise out of the much needed areas of the country.

I understand now why people on here are so anti grammar schools, they cant
stand the thought of families earning the £ 75K PA using something that may
give their children 1% chance of joining the elite. Some posters on Mumsnet are like the public school elite who are hell bent in keeping the club to themselves.

dotmania Wed 13-Nov-13 17:17:08

Name change to contribute to this .... know it will draw some heat, but let's be real - £250k p.a after tax (which with NI is over 50%) , in London with two kids at top London prep and hefty school fees at top senior schools over many years to pay as well as moderate mortgage (even without mortgage) and pension contributions makes us feel like a poor relation compared to many others we see in these top prep's all relative isn't it old you are, what your house is like, how big your mortgage is, how many children you have etc. are they in private education, how much have you saved for your pension, what holidays you take, what hobbies your kids have etc.?

You have to look at outgoings and aspirations you have set up for yourself and your children compared with their and your peers. 250k living in the north and going to the local grammar with no/low mortgage will make you feel very comfortable for sure. In London, will all that as outgoings ... I don't think so.

It may be out of proportion to the rest of the country, but if you live in London you compare to your peers in London - that's just how it is. Most of our peers (at work) in London choose private school. It is the done thing. I know it is a sad indictment but there it is.

I don't think anyone who goes private is anti-grammar school...why would they be...I think it is those who feel they can afford neither private or realistically get into grammar (because it's not there or because you need to heavily tutor for it) and are left with less than satisfactory options that have issues. The fix is to improve the less than satisfactory options in state rather than attack the superselective state or privates. At the end of the day, all that everyone wants are decent choices. Taking away the choices from some (especially when they are excellent), does not improve the lack of choice for others.

dotmania Wed 13-Nov-13 17:22:13

Also don't think getting into grammar schools will get one into the elite per se ...perhaps middle class professional serving the elite.

soul2000 Wed 13-Nov-13 17:36:43

Dot. This is not against you in any way, I know a lot of very "Wealthy people",but to come on to any forum saying you earn 250k PA Net after tax
and say you feel poor, is very stupid. For your own good and understanding
you really need to go on a train journey to Darlington and see that you are in the highest earning 100 Thousand people in the country. As for the Marie Antoinette comment about 250k PA being a lot in The North, if you live in places like Darlington 2 people living together are lucky to earn between them £40k before tax........ Dot its not relative "YOU ARE RICH" ,you are richer than 63,605,000 people living in the UK.

Bonsoir Wed 13-Nov-13 18:27:36

soul2000 - it is not sensible to argue in absolute terms. Housing costs, transport costs, childcare costs and school costs are astronomical in the South East and it is very easy to be a high earner and yet live in quite mediocre accommodation and have no pocket money left after bills are paid.

soul2000 Wed 13-Nov-13 18:42:54

Bonsoir. What about the other Millions people living in London who live on the 17th floor Tower Blocks in Hackney (THEY ARE POOR). I heard a friend of mine who went to live in Monaco to save a few million in tax say that he could not afford to live there and he was "POOR" ,A stupid comment just
like Dot's.

Slipshodsibyl Wed 13-Nov-13 18:56:33

But the poor are not the subject of this discussion. FR from it.

rabbitstew Wed 13-Nov-13 18:59:02

Well, that's really a laugh and a half, isn't it, to say you feel poor because you spend all your money... grin "Oh, but guvnor, I may earn £250,000 a year after tax, but I don't feel well off because I choose to spend all my money."

Xpatmama88 Wed 13-Nov-13 18:59:12

We are expat. Both my children got into these so call elite superclass of private boarding schools. They both are super academic, they got into these schools with their own merits. They both worked hard, and achieved excellent results.
We want them to know the fierce competition on the global stage, without a strong academic record to support them, it will be difficult to launch themselves to climb these corporate ladders.
Are we elite superclass? Certainly not! (May be intellectually certainly not financially) We are just hard working professional, willing to take on challenges, willing to pay for a good education for our children, hopefully help them to secure a better future. I don't see there is anything wrong with that.
With experiences of living in various countries, seeing some very high standard of education (especially in Asia). I think UK really need to get the grip to improve their state education in order to compete with the rest of world.
On the other hand, at the top end the scale, many UK private schools (and superselective/grammar school) are still the best in the world, many are academically driven and can certainly provide a very solid education, hence the attraction to so many parents (foreign parents especially) because they all want the best for the children.

rabbitstew Wed 13-Nov-13 19:03:08

"It may be out of proportion to the rest of the country, but if you live in London you compare to your peers in London - that's just how it is. Most of our peers (at work) in London choose private school. It is the done thing." Yes, it is just so incredibly important to keep up with the Jones's - far more important than getting your head out of your own arse, when everyone else's head appears to have disappeared that way already.

rabbitstew Wed 13-Nov-13 19:10:44

Well, I for one am looking forward to all these highly educated people doing a better job of running the country and the world economy than the current lot, who are clearly from the earlier generation of privately educated people who did not receive a superclass education - or if they did, are hiding it rather well. I hope also that this fandabbydosey education will result in someone solving the issue of global warming and various other thorny issues. I REALLY hope this amazing education isn't actually just a vanity project for people who think it's really important to know how to speak 7 languages and be expert in 14 different sports just so that they can show off to their equally privileged mates and make their CV look good.

Slipshodsibyl Wed 13-Nov-13 19:15:16

But it is true that 250 000 pa in London will not be sufficient to buy the lifestyle and opportunities indicated in this discussion if you are a family with more than one child. That is the point isn't it? That those at the very top are buying educational experiences that are unattainable.

I would be interested to know broadly what percentage of London residents /private school pupils is in the minds of those who talk of a global elite.

lljkk Wed 13-Nov-13 19:25:01

what I think is very interesting is the way John Major is wading in on the social equality issues of late. Rather progressive of a Tory.

rabbitstew Wed 13-Nov-13 19:25:07

£250,000 pa after tax earned in London is plenty to get two kids through Eton.

Slipshodsibyl Wed 13-Nov-13 19:25:50

I am curious too Rabbit. I think that I am acquainted , (through no achievement of my own)with a number of people who might be described as global elite in that their names appear in the business sections of newspapers as they hold positions of responsibility in multinationals and other organisations and some are names which some of us would know without googling.

I don't routinely recognise them in the descriptions above which sound to me to be rather more like 'tycoons' lbut that is perhaps the kind if elite people are referring to?

Slipshodsibyl Wed 13-Nov-13 19:28:03

Rabbit it is enough but I disagree that it is plenty if putting two children through prep school and Eton, assuming that is the only income.

Slipshodsibyl Wed 13-Nov-13 19:28:44

Sorry, I missed the 'after tax' bit

rabbitstew Wed 13-Nov-13 19:32:55

dotmania made it clear the £250K is after tax... yet dotmania apparently feels relatively poor... It's just so tough keeping up with the spending of your neighbours, it really is, and they just seem to have so much more to spend... grin

rabbitstew Wed 13-Nov-13 19:38:33

I find an excellent cure for this problem is to surround yourself with neighbours who are LESS well off than you. Then you can feel so incredibly rich and lucky... and on £250K a year after tax you can feel all that and STILL be living in a really nice, well-heeled, safe area. smile

dotmania Wed 13-Nov-13 19:41:53

Thank you Slipshodsibyl - I think you got my drift.

Wish folk would read the post again before flaming with knee-jerk posts... it is 250k before tax .....not after ...and I said you can feel "relatively" poor in relation to the far more wealthy families that also go to these types of elite London schools like Westminster ...not poor compared to the general population or those on average wage ...I was responding to a post from someone who put 250k as the "wealthy" category in London with regard to a discussion of these types of schools and the parents of those that can afford them ...and that response was based on what does that mean though when relative wealth mean based on aspirations, and education choices in these types of schools.

it is a relative measure of feeling of wealth if you can understand that concept ...someone on 25k will be very "rich" in relation to someone on a dollar a day in poorest parts of the will you be flaming them if they say they feel relatively poor compared to their peers where they live and work and educate their children?

A millionaire will feel relatively poor compared to a group consisting of billionaires who are a thousand times richer ...of course he is not poor in the scheme of things (where poor is measured by a poverty line) ...and the peers are not the Joneses but friends, family, professional colleagues etc. with children at these schools ...all of that raises aspirations and expectations especially when you set down the private path for years in these types of schools in London. It is a bit of a trap you set yourself.

Even at that salary, after tax with other outgoings - you have to think twice about the fees for two children over several years and the ideas that your children may have about wealth in comparatively looking at their peers at school and make sure they realize how privileged they are compared to the general populace in having that opportunity rather than take it for granted.

It's not just school fees though is it? As bonsoir said, it's sports, tennis, skiing, other languages, music, all cost £££. And all that plus a mortgage must be ££££££

rabbitstew Wed 13-Nov-13 19:50:00

Ah, I see, so "£250k p.a after tax" meant £250K p.a. BEFORE tax. grin Yes of course there is relative poverty and people compare themselves with those around them, it's just that some people limit those around them to a square mile, some to an entire country, and some to the whole world, and the smaller your comparisons, the meaner your mentality, surely?

dotmania Wed 13-Nov-13 19:58:32

I should add we live in a very very mediocre house in London...and not central either is not big any more...but yes all the extra curriculars /trips cost £££ i said it is a bit of a trap if you go down this path if you are not one of the mega wealthy...and your children will get a skewed idea of wealth and what is normal and will need to be brought down to earth sometimes ...the relative bit is felt when they go round their friends' houses for parties (where they have "staff') and such like or compare holidays and think they are somehow "poor" RELATIVELY by comparison, ridiculous and obscene as that may seem.

unlucky83 Wed 13-Nov-13 20:00:25

(Whispers) I went to UCL (admittedly 16ish yrs ago, as a mature student and things might have changed now)
I got one A level from Lambeth College (A) and one A level from Croydon College (C)...hardly super league top schools!
(A level at Croydon was in one year so I guess my offers reflected that.) UCL was my first choice (best for my subject). Kings would have had me for CC..

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