If a child at school is always in detention or in trouble at school - disclaimer - I am hot, sun scorched and knackered

[redrubyshoes]

should they be kept back from field trips/sports days as well?

Just had a nightmare few days of dealing with same five kids who are always walking out of class, being rude/abusive/bullying to other students/staff and a whole host of other reasons...........but the head (who rarely attends these trips) lets them go.

They took up sooo much of our (staff) time while the other kids were having fun/learning/looking out for each other running/jumping/high jumping/long jumping etc etc etc. We were literally at the end of our tether with these five and they stopped us cheering on the pupils or just sharing our attention around the other 193 or so that were great/not so great/injured/hot/tearful (when they lost)/needed water/food/plasters or WAY TO GO MISS DIDJA SEE THAT!!!! moments.

Am I horrible or just knackered and hot and worn out after a long day?

Hit me with it.

[Sirzy]

Primary or secondary?

I can understand your thinking, and think if it is known children are likely to cause trouble on trips then they shouldn't attend (without a lot of warnings/preperation etc at least)

That said, I would also want to know what else was being done to find out why they were always in detention and trouble at school.

[maddy68]

hmm tricky - I am a teacher too so I sympathise BUT the detention is the punishment IYSWIM you cannot really punish twice for the same incident

But you could introduce a new procedure x amount of behaviour incidents and they dont go

[RhondaJean]

My elder daughters school arrange the trip as a reward for good behaviour. You have to be there on time, have all your kit, and get at least a satisfactory from each teacher for behaviour to be allowed to go.

My younger is still at primary and they have a party at the end of each to which has similar requirements to attend.

[redrubyshoes]

And before anyone mentions ADHD, SN etc etc. These are NOT children with ANY of the above. I work closely with pastoral care and SW.

[redrubyshoes]

Secondary.

[ReallyTired]

If a chidl is always in trouble then the head needs to develop a back bone and escalate sanctions. Prehaps the five children need to be seperated for trips/ sports day.

Suspending a child should only be used as a last restort for seriously bad behaviour. Children with special needs have a right to school trips and sports days. I see nothing wrong with banning a badly behaved child from a school trip, but it may not be legal.

As far as school trips go, i think you need to do a risk assessment for each child. Prehaps a fairer compromise is to ask the children's parents to come on the trip/ sports days and supervise their little darlings. (However this might cause you more problems when you have to fill out all the child protection forms when little Alfie gets a well deserved clip around the ear and is called a fcking bsted or the parents themselves start fighting.)

[redrubyshoes]

Reallytired

Your name matches my feelings. Yep we have a bloody hope in hell of the parents of these kids 'helping' out! The parental nickname for their child is not 'sweetheart' or 'darling'.

I sound like a Daily Mail reader but I am changing jobs in September because I cannot cope anymore with these kids. I would not trust their parents to water a pot plant once a week.

Detention/isolation doesn't work and we have nothing left in our arsenal really. Only exclusion. And that costs over a grand a week for some kids with home tuition...................and that doesn't work either.

[CloudsAndTrees]

I don't think children who are continuously badly behaved should be allowed on school trips. It's not about punishment, so it's irrelevant that they have been punished already, it's about being able to trust them not to have a detrimental effect on the trip for everyone else.

They will never learn to cooperate if they don't have any consequences that matter to them. Detention and the like is clearly not doing the job it's supposed to do if they continue doing it.

The problem here is the unsupportive head. Could you send these children to the head every time they misbehave so she can get a better idea of their behaviour?

[ReallyTired]

". Could you send these children to the head every time they misbehave so she can get a better idea of their behaviour?"

That would be a very quick way for a teacher to get the sack. The teacher is expected to entertain the little darlings and ofcourse any poor behaviour is the fault of the teacher. Children are completely untouchable.

Secondary schools are remote places. Often the head doesn't know all the staff yet alone the names of distruptive kids.

I feel for the poster as she is clearly fed up and demoralised. I didn't realise that a school had to provide home tutition for a fixed exclusion of five days.

[redrubyshoes]

Clouds

He sees them every day when a teacher sends out an alarm call to get them out of lessons when they are kicking off.

I used to be so nice and lovely and thinking "ahh but they are only kids" but when they are calling teachers "an effing c" and an 'effing bastard' using the real words or punching a child down the stairs or saying to their 12 year old classmate 'What's wrong mate? Not getting any pussy?"

This is the same FIVE students. Male and female. An average school. Honestly it is!

[redrubyshoes]

I leave in two weeks. Just TWO WEEKS and I never, ever have to deal with them again.

[CloudsAndTrees]

Fair enough, my experience of secondary is limited!

I work in a small primary, and when a child is particularly badly behaved, they are sent to the head. It doesn't happen often, so it works well as a deterrent!

It is very very wrong that this is allowed to happen in schools. A minority of disruptive children should not be allowed to push a teacher so far that she wants to leave her job, nor should they be allowed to divert a significant amount of attention away from all the students that know how to behave.

[redrubyshoes]

Thanks all for your contributions. Have asked for this thread to be moved.

[TheBuskersDog]

They would not be allowed to go at my son's school. Whenever we have a letter about trips it says something about a child's participation is dependent on their behaviour prior to the trip meeting expectations. They are very hot on discipline, detentions for lateness, forgotten books etc all of which goes on record and a letter sent to parents.

[wordfactory]

redruby I feel so sad for you.

You are obviously a caring person and these pupils, plus the lack of being able to deal with them has got to you!

Just awful.

The HT needs to sort this out. Could you draw their attention to it very clearly when you leave?

[cory]

(Re you thread title rather than your thread): being always in detention doesn't have to mean that you are difficult or out of control, though in this case it clearly does. It depends on the school.

Ds never seems to be out of detention, but it is for forgetting his homework, losing his planner, failing to go to the last detention because he lost his planner... His reports always stress his kindliness and good manners. He wouldn't be any trouble on a field trip.

The school were going to test him for dyspraxia but they seem to have forgotten (perhaps they lost their planner )

[DeWe]

The school were going to test him for dyspraxia but they seem to have forgotten (perhaps they lost their planner)

Personally from my perspective, I think trips should not be open to those who are causing lots of behavioural problems. Dd1's in year 7, and in a fairly good form (comprehensive) but she gets so tired of the same three boys mucking around and spoiling things. It would be nice for her to have a trip where she doesn't have to feel stressed by their behaviour.
In fact they've got a trip next week, and she mentioned that one of them isn't going, and I suspect it's due to his behaviour. but it's not an exclusion. They still have to come to school and be at school, just they don't get the treat of a trip that day.

[redrubyshoes]

How do you deal with a 13 year old child who is in your face and screaming abuse when all you can offer is a detention that she will refuse to attend or isolation? Isolation means she can refuse to do the work that she refused to do in class which is why she is in isolation!

I am turning into a Daily Mail reader.

Exclusion from school? Brilliant - that would be her dream.

We have had NINE different people inc: teachers, principals, pastoral care, support social workers, her mum etc sitting around a bloody table discussing how to 'help' her as "she doesn't like her teachers/uniform/games/maths/English/science/languages/cooking etc.

She is just an example of some the children I deal with. I am fecking sick to the back teeth of pandering to these kids which is why I am leaving education.

Yet she goes on field trips and causes mayhem and goes to sports day and holds EVERYTHING up for the other kids because of her abusive and volatile behaviour. Keep her excluded from trips for crying out loud - but the HT thinks he can save them using pure loveliness and understanding.

Yep matey - go on the field trip and deal with her for 8 hours straight.

I am using this one child as an example.

Some are worse.

If you want to feel sorry for the above child then please feel free to deal with her for an hour

[colander]

This is one of the main reasons I left state education and now work in the private sector. I think one of the major failings of the current education system is that these kids are getting away with this behaviour. It damages the education of all the others, but also does the problem kids no favours at all. After all, they can't behave this way in normal society, so why should they get away with it in school?

I'm sorry to hear you are leaving education - you sound like just the sort of teacher the kids desperately need at the moment. Unfortunately your head sounds like just one of the many other incompetent fools that are messing up the education of a generation of kids at the moment.

Rant over! But if you want to continue teaching (and proper teaching, not crowd control) then think about the private sector. I'm certainly never going back to state!

[hermioneweasley]

I don't blame you one bit. I have nothing but sympathy for discipline/behaviour issues that teachers face.

[Wolfiefan]

Safeguarding!
A risk assessment should be done and if their behaviour presents a risk then they shouldn't go.
And yes I teach secondary too!

[edam]

redruby - sounds bloody awful but I wonder what their home life is like - are they having a terrible time at home which is reflected in their behaviour in school? (Disclaimer - I know parents are not always to blame for poor behaviour.)

[beatback]

The pupils who cause all these problems should not be in mainstream schools. The pupils who are unable to behave in a normal way and put the safety and education of other kids at risk should be not just put in isolation, but put in special boarding schools with "BARS ON THEM AND LOCKED DOORS" Only joking . It is a very big problem because these kids if in the right enviroment could possibly achieve and behave in a reasonable way. On the "Secondary Section" there is a post about a girl with ADHD who has been let down badly by her school .Though i do feel for RED RUBY a way has to be found to give the disruptive kids the best education possible, and that surely would be away from mainstream schools.

[tethersend]

Just to offer an alternative point of view, excluding some children from school trips can and does serve to alienate them further from their peers, thus exacerbating the behavioural problems. Conversely, some children's behaviour is vastly improved by participating in a school trip or activity.

Many Looked After Children (is the girl in your example a LAC? You mentioned a SW) will experience exclusion from school activities as yet another rejection and as further evidence that they are worthless and nobody wants them. This will invariably lead to an increase in negative behaviour, compounding the problem and leading to exclusion from school, continuing the negative spiral. As an aside, I have never met a child who enjoys being excluded, despite working with children with ESBD for many years.

It's not always as straightforward as 'they don't deserve to go'. Perhaps the issue is that teachers need more support to effectively deal with such children.

[redrubyshoes]

I am not alone. I mean when was all the power handed over to the child?

We have children with really serious issues to deal with.

I have a student who lost a grandparent three years ago. Has both parents at home and a stable home life. He gets six hours a month bereavement counselling. Three students have parents with a terminal illness (months to live) and are on a waiting list for counselling!

One pupil carves himself up with a razor blade regularly so his uniform is soaked with blood. Patch him up and send him to A&E/Pastoral care etc. Waiting list for counselling.

Pupils with drug addict/alcoholic parents - when I put a plaster on them for a cut or graze they lean into me for contact - just a human touch that is not abusive and a kind word. I breathe through my mouth to avoid breathing in the smell of fags and unwashed clothing/body that emanates from them.
Pupils who come to us for food as they have not eaten last night/that morning..................this is why I stayed so long in education. I keep a stash of food in my desk for the kids I know that are hungry.

But I am becoming hardened to it. How on earth do you 'congratulate' a mother on her 7th pregnancy when she has six that are filthy and hungry and always in trouble?

I do not want to become hardened. I really do care. Too much.