DEBATE: Should League Tables be abolished?

[rbj949703]

\link{http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/education/4960730.stm\League Tables}

If we send our kids late for tests they would be counted as an unauthorised absence surely. DD1's secondary school is constantly towards the bottom of the league tables, even though with the exception of last year GCSE results have been improving.

I think we should abolish league tables, but there still needs to be some sort of system so that we, as parents can compare schools when making choices.

[edam]

No, because parents need information about school performance. But they should be revised so they give useful information and to close any loopholes that can be fiddled. Like counting vocational qualifications as equivalent to four academic GCSEs or whatever it was.

[AngelaD]

Yes the only figures parents should be interested in is the value added ones, if you have a class of 30 genius' who all achieved A* who cares, if you have a class of 30 struggling kids who did the very best that they could have then that is of much more interest to me.

[Twiglett]

yes

[scienceteacher]

I think league tables are very useful, but they should be read with certain facts in mind. They are probably most useful at screening out the bottom achieving schools, rather than selecting from the top ones.

[Blandmum]

I have every sympathy with parents trying to make choices on a school. Since DH is in the RAF we often move around, and arrive in an area knowing nothing about the schools. THis is true for lots of people in our area.

League tables are very flawed, but at least do give parents some 'flavour' of the schools in the area, which could be backed up by a visit.

[SenoraPostrophe]

but what's the point in giving parents a "flavour" of a school when they can't get their kids into it anyway. in fact it's particularly hard to get your child into the school of your choice if you move around a lot and therefore need to find schools mid-school or mid-year isn't it? (obv not speaking from experience here, but that's how it is in spain and it seems logical)

yes we should abolish the tables.

[Freckle]

I'm not sure a lot of people actually know what the tables mean, especially the Value Added bit. My sister used to work in a primary school which consistently got top marks over a number of years. However, she said that they had had a very good set of students in each year. The next year the students were not as bright so their results were much worse. According to the league tables this meant that the teaching had deteriorated, which clearly wasn't the case. So do they really mean much of value to parents?

I think they add to the stress of the teachers, often the students (at the stages where they are aware they are being tested) and don't tell the parents a great deal. I'm much more likely to read the Ofsted report to make a decision regarding a school rather than look at the league tables.

[scienceteacher]

A small primary school (ie with one form entry) is a lot more sensitive to the cohort of children coming in each year. Their league table position can be up and down, despite the same teachers and leadership.

I think they are a lot more useful for secondary schools, where the leadership is key to the success of the school.

I am skeptical about OFSTED reports, and school visits - schools are very good at hiding problem teachers and pupils.

I think a good indicator is how the children behave outside of school - on public transport, at the school gates, in the corner shop. If they behave well outside, they will behave well inside too, and I think this is a key factor in how well children learn.

[GDG]

Sorry to hijack, but does anyone know how often a school has an OFSTED inspection? Our primary school was last inspected in 2001.

[rbj949703]

GDG, schools are inspected every three years.

[clerkKent]

I'm just reading Freakonomics about teachers faking test results (in the USA). You can't rely on any measure in isolation; if you take terst results plus Ofsted plus a school visit and observation of pupils, then you should be able to tell whether one school is "better" than another - or at least better suited to your child. If the CEO - sorry headteacher - has just changed, that may invalidate most of the previous statistics and reports.

On balance, I think it is better to have the league tables so there is at least some hard data to work with.

[DominiConnor]

Freakonomics is indeed a great book. I know people who handle very large sums of money, and they recommend it.
Heads don't like being measured.
Hands up those of us who work, who would like to be measured ?

Thus I am suspicious of their motives.

[supplyteacher]

ClarkKent,

This kind of thing happens here too: GCSE Coursework.

[popsycalindisguise]

Value added has to be read with some cynicism too I am afraid.....can explain in greater depth if anyone is particularly interested in the jargon...

[popsycalindisguise]

can someone please tell me to step away from this thread right now please....

[Feenie]

No, they are inspected every 5 years unless there is obviously something wrong.

[rbj949703]

Feenie, regulations changed September 2005, inspections are now every THREE years with only 3 working days notice, \link{http://www.ofsted.gov.uk/parents\last paragraph}

Step away Popsy!

[rbj949703]

Oops! Posted without finishing,

There are 4 categories;

4 - Inadequate (schools given 'Notice to improve' and are inspected again 1 year later)
3 - Satisfactory
2 - Good
1 - Excellent

There is a consultation out at the moment about changing inspections slightly.

Higher performing schools will have even more of a light touch inspection with more reliance on the school's own self evaluation.

Schools given a notice to improve will have a monitoring visit approx 6 months after the report is published.

In schools that are satisfactory 'with pockets of underachievement' would also receive a monitoring visit.

[fob]

we don't have them here in scotland and we do ok.

food for thought.

[DominiConnor]

Fob has a point.
The English are pretty much the worst educated people in the developed world, and on some tables we do worse than the better end of 3rd world.

Yet almost no one else has league tables.

The most successful systems, such as those of Russia, Japan & France have heavy central control, nor much input from parents. The American system has little central control and parents actually get to directly elect education officials, and of course evangelicals can get evolution taken off the curriculum.
But like America, we pay teachers badly, and it is very rare for teachers to lose their jobs for incompetence. But again in nearly all countries less ignorant than ours teachers rarely get bonuses for better results.

There is no good correlation between % of GDP on education and it's outcome.

But, at the risk of alienating everyone here I blame the parents. I know a variety of teachers from other countries. And they talk of the way that the very mild punishments available to them such as detention are vetoed by parents, and being assualted by them for upsetting their kids.
On these forums I see parents talking of the "stress" of reading 10 mins a day with their kids, or even it being "doing the teachers job for them".
Also fathers in this country work far more hours than in other countries, and that does not help one little bit, and a lot of the numbers in the pathetic rankings of English kids is down to stupidly inappropriate teaching for boys.

[SenoraPostrophe]

oh arse are we the worst educated people in the developed world. education systems in other European countries are better in some respects but worse in others.

But anyway I do agree that paying teachers by "results" is not particularly going to improve eduction (though it may improve results slightly in that teachers will teach to the test). Also school discipline does not correlate with strength of punishments offered by the school.

[Feenie]

I stand corrected, rbj - knew about the 3 day notice period but not the changed frequency. Should expect ours any day now then (we haven't been 'done' since 2001).

[katzg]

i think we should abandond league tables and revert back to the catchment area schools.

[Bramshott]

For primary schools - definitely, there's so much else that's more important.

For secondary schools - not sure, I can see that they could be useful and less likely to be skewed by small intakes etc.

How about SATs? Can we abolish those while we're at it?