Disruption and poor behaviour in schools.

(48 Posts)
mam29 Thu 06-Dec-12 13:36:36

Wanted to bring up valid points brought up in grammer thread about disruption.

As grammers are only 167 schools in entire uk

uk has rather succesful independant sector.

high number of faith schools.

recent article sabout number of primary kids being expelled worrying.

How do we improve disruption and poor behaviour in schools?

I went to comprehensive where behaviour was dire

lots bullying.
bottom sets were worst

I saw how disruption affected my education and other peoples.

not one person in my geography class got gcse c grade as bevhaviour was so bad most pf time teacher as frogmarching one of boys to head. quite a few had to stand outside. supply teachers run off in tears.
anyone who dared answer teachers questions correctly was picked on and called a swot.

I see my local comp the way the kids behave walking home.
their gcse results are 43%5gcses a-c
conicidence much?

Im not looking foward to secondry applications as guess hard to get accurate veiw from open day which can be false.

whats the recipie for a good school.

Do people decide

grammer
faith schhool
private

must have better behaviour?

mummytime Fri 07-Dec-12 13:52:35

I worked once in a school with a lot of ex-military as teachers. The level of low level disruption was higher than at my DCs school and another that I have worked at, and its intake wasn't especially worse.

A lot of children do have SEN, 10% probably dyslexic, add to that the other SENs. Also children with "piss poor parenting" are quite often actually neglected or suffering low level abuse, so yes quite likely to be disruptive.
In nice middle class schools parents are on the ball and kids with SEN are much more likely to be spotted and have intervention/help.

A good head teacher tends to motivate their staff and make them feel valued, this has a huge impact on the quality and confidence of the teachers. If you don't have the head "having your back" you may well not dare to do more than attempt to have a quiet life.

cornycarrotshack Fri 07-Dec-12 13:53:41

litten I really don't know - I think there are too many factors

That particular Head who was able to turn the school around wasn't particularly strict - quite nurturing in fact. Also very consistent and took the time to find out about the children and their complexities. Very supportive of the staff who were then willing to work hard in return.

I think that Head was incredibly skilled and also very well placed - exactly what the school needed.

cornycarrotshack Fri 07-Dec-12 13:54:38

A good head teacher tends to motivate their staff and make them feel valued, this has a huge impact on the quality and confidence of the teachers. If you don't have the head "having your back" you may well not dare to do more than attempt to have a quiet life.

I agree 100% mummytime

LittenTree Fri 07-Dec-12 14:03:45

I thought there was a difference between special needs and special educational needs.

And isn't it rather frightening that the difference between a failing school and a vastly improving school is one person?!

Interestingly, an 'average' comp near me was improved dramatically by the arrival of a new Head. She put all the DC who were on their 'final warning' (and had been for MONTHS!) on a term's notice. She met with them, worked with them, met and worked with the parents, ramped up the social and mental health services input where possible ('took the time to find out about the children')- then, with a heavy heart, permanently excluded 10 of them at the end of that term term. Those who were by then beyond the help of a standard comp. The rest of the DC, the majority, bucked their ideas up, recognised that the new Head meant business and got on with it.

The school has dramatically improved- maybe because she has dealt with the disruption?!

And yes, 'piss poor parenting' does indeed mean 'quite often actually neglected or suffering low level abuse'- what else would it mean?

cornycarrotshack Fri 07-Dec-12 14:23:57

I'm using special need as a generic term but will use the term special educational needs if it's clearer

Children with statements of 'special educational needs' are 8 times more likely to be excluded from school than their counterparts

Special Educational needs (such as dyslexia) are also more prevalent in young people who offend.

Startail Fri 07-Dec-12 14:26:59

Piss poor parenting can mean nothing more than not teaching your DCs to value education or the rights of other children to get an education.

It can mean not teaching your DCs to not bully the slightly different.

Sometimes it simply means thinking all teachers are jerks without evidence.

Pupils like these latch on to DCs with genuine reasons to find school difficult and cause a huge amount of trouble. Sadly it's the SN child they either egg on or bully who often gets in trouble.

LittenTree Fri 07-Dec-12 14:26:59

corny I think we can absolutely agree that genuine SEN can hold a DC back and cause them to be disruptive in class; however, I believe there is a tendency afoot to label all disruptive behaviour as being the result of that DC having a Special Need, when that DC actually is in especial need of being disciplined effectively!

mummytime Fri 07-Dec-12 14:45:40

LitternTree there is some truth in what you say, but that is because "being badly behaved" or social and emotional needs is actually a category of SEN. If a school just slaps the label on and doesn't look further it can include: the badly parented, ASD, ADHD, a whole range of mental health issues, the shy, the bullied etc.

TalkinPeace2 Fri 07-Dec-12 16:31:29

Wrapping kids in curtains
throwing shoes out the window
table surfing
etc etc
Top set - will all make it to RG Unis.

Bad behaviour is not just about deprivation and SEN - look at the Bullingdon club FFS

trinity0097 Fri 07-Dec-12 16:34:12

A school has to work together to improve behaviour, all staff must follow whatever rules they have and follow through on discipline. My first job was horrid, because although we as a maths dept tried to enforce the rules, the kids were like, 'well science 10min ago I didn't have to take my coat off so why should i for you?'

maisiejoe123 Fri 07-Dec-12 18:21:13

I feel that often SEN is used to excuse poor behaviour. My DS's step son has 'anger mananagement issues'. Has been in jail once and lost his temper when he had to wait at A&E when he thought his drink had been spiked. Hit a nurse and his solicitor claimed SEN (he is 17) and anger management issues - and he got off!!

amicissimma Fri 07-Dec-12 18:22:46

I would like to see testing at the end of each school year (I'm thinking of Primary) which actually resulted in something being done.

So every child who failed to reach level a would automatically be given x hours of one-to-one teaching for the following year, every child who failed to reach level b, y hours etc.

I think we should pour resources into making sure that every child is able to access the secondary school curriculum or has properly assessed needs appropriately addressed, rather than dealing with children who can't cope in secondary school disrupting everyone else.

I'm afraid I also think that low-level disruption should be challenged every single time and that every teacher should be given the resources and support to do this. That comes from the top of the school. Remember that school where the teachers walked out because the Head wouldn't let them confiscate mobiles?

Re mobiles: DS's school has a rule that they are switched off and go in the locker before morning registration and don't come out until afternoon dismisal. Any caught out or heard during the day have to be collected by a parent in a short time gap on a Friday evening and if that doesn't suit the parent, bad luck. If it's essential for the child to have a mobile on the journey home, he/she and his/her parent has to make sure that the rule is remembered and obeyed.

LittenTree Fri 07-Dec-12 19:27:22

I agree with your sentiments, ami- but that won't happen purely because- and here's the reality check- the DC who'd be most likely to fail and thus be subject to the interventions are, frankly and statistically, those of the less well educated, poorer, possibly more anti-social parent; ie those who have no political 'value', those who'd piss the tax-paying MC, voting parents off as their well behaved, adequately (tho not stellar) achieving DC won't get 1:1 for being 'badly behaved'.

And, actually, they'd have a bit of a point. 'I' (the putative 'MC' parent- I use 'MC' as sloppy code for caring, engaged, contributory etc) have assisted my DC every step of the way. I got my degree/professional qualification, married, bought a house, sorted my career and self before conceiving my DC; I've addressed their SEN, often by paying privately and supporting them, yet your DC gets the perks, the 1:1 paid for by my taxes when you've done nothing except fail to discipline your ill-conceived DC.

Can't see that as a vote winner! esp not right now!

An aside: Being able to access and being willing to are 2 separate issues......

LittenTree Fri 07-Dec-12 19:31:20

Finally- 'properly assessed needs appropriately addressed'- well, the reality of that might be storm-troopering their home to make inadequate parents meet their responsibilities. I can imagine how that'd go down! As I said waaaay earlier, a successful educational outcome requires 3 ducks in a row: child/parent/school. If one isn't in line, the whole won't function particularly successfully.

TalkinPeace2 Fri 07-Dec-12 20:21:57

Where I live, a 4x4 is 4 kids, 4 dads.
There are parents who are not capable to dealing with their children - breakfast from the sweet shop etc.
Dealing with such problems is both expensive and makes bad headlines.

On the other hand, my council has taken the incredibly brave and forward looking step to amalgamate all PRU services into one site that has lots of expertise
and its working
kids come out of there after four weeks ready to slot back into proper school life.
I hope other councils follow their lead.

LittenTree Fri 07-Dec-12 21:35:28

Well targeted intervention, then!

TalkinPeace2 Fri 07-Dec-12 21:42:35

litten
its amazing.
A child at DCs school, after a string of exclusions got sent to the new centre and came back 'changed'
there is no other word.
no trouble of any sort since (over a year ago ....)

if EVERY council amalgamated all its PRU resource - sharing in the smaller ones - to create "centres of excellence" for getting to the bottom of issues
it would start to make a real difference to 'broken families'

losingtrust Sat 08-Dec-12 00:45:21

Ds's comp is streamed from day one although mixed ability forms and craft groups. It is then also set for maths and has a humanities major and science major in each stream from year 8. 8 groups for 200 so very targeted. This year (year 8) the top science class had a poor teacher so they sent a petition round to say the teacher was not very good and they ended up with the strictest teacher in the school and were told they were not as good as they thought and some in the second set were better and the groups were rejigged. They all moaned then because he worked them really hard. The school is very strict. One child in year 7 in the top stream was expelled for fighting which is not tolerated. Any mobile found being used during the day including breaks is confiscated intil the end of the dat and if second offence will only be released to parents. Blue cards are awarded for good behavior with certificates and letters/phone calls home for really good behavior. Detentions given freely and yellow cards for poor behavior with again letters, phone calls home. Patents can log on to see how many accumulated. School uniform very strict. Attendance above 97% required. The school achieves 97% five good gcse with 78% in including maths and English. 15% with min ten As. The children are involved in the running of the school with council, mentors, prefects. Am convinced the combination of penalties and rewards encourages progression for all. Eg certificates for exceeding targets. I actually went to the same school in the 80's and we got away with a lot more than the kids now so it is a lot stricter even the uniform. This is something I would look for in a school. You do need good parental support though and it would do well in inner city areas where the parents are immigrants and have grown up with strong strictness in schools. Not sure with some areas where the parents are not as bothered about education

losingtrust Sat 08-Dec-12 01:00:50

Mind you I was very shocked at the behavior abroad compared to my Uk schools. Taught in Austria and the behavior was really bad compared to here. My experience with a German school also bad. Children wMy sisters high achieving comp stopped their exchange with the German school because the behavior was so bad. Therefore not just a UK problem.

creamteas Sat 08-Dec-12 12:02:37

My DCs school is a comp in a non-grammar school area and take the full range of pupils.

There quite a pupils which whose behaviour could effect others, but they are taught separately in the internal exclusion unit. People judge their behaviour walking too and from school. Also as they are still on site, the A*-C GCSE pass rate is about 50%, but normal lessons are not disrupted at all.

creamteas Sat 08-Dec-12 12:10:30

Oh and I went to a GS when I was a kid and I can my behaviour was awful. I was a habitual truant and when at school used to talk through class and smoke fags and take drugs in the toilets!

LittenTree Wed 12-Dec-12 18:59:17

I'd've been a distant, receding blot on the sky-scape, boot shaped bruise on my arse, had I pulled any of that stuff, creamteas at my GS! Late in one day? Letter home. Twice? phone call. 3 times? Parents called in.

Girls were suspended for smelling of fags.... so in the lower 6th, you had to be bloody careful to make sure you aired your blazer when you came out of the pub at lunchtime before returning to school grin.

Sourchilli Wed 27-Mar-13 21:03:16

Maisiejoe- There are many reasons why phones are not banned:
Parents like us are dying to receive phone calls from our sons and daughters midweek. If they don't have phones how are they meant to do this?
Secondly they can receive emails notifying them about the day, on the phone which means they are going to read the emails faster. This will make everyones life easier.
The school is not a Prison! we are paying $^&*( pounds to send them there!
These people are 13-18. Do you think they are going to stop bringing there phones in just because the teachers are telling them not to. Some of these people are smuggling in alcohol and cigarettes(Which they aren't allowed to) What makes you think they won't bring in mobiles? HA
Case closed

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